Hello All,
A few months back I aquired a 1969 Firebird. The engine in it is a 1971 400ci. The body on this car is real rough. Needs quarter panels, door replaced, and many other things. I bought it ,because it was a deal I couldn't turn down. My question is has anyone tried putting a older engine like this in a third gen bird? If so is it difficult?
chevyo3

 

The ponitac motor swap has been discussed alot in the past.. just do a search there were a couple of recent threads about it.

 

Pontiac 400 or Chevy 400?

And hey, if you dont want the rest of the car, I'll take it off your hands

 

If it is in a 69 and is a 71 motor it is fairly safe to assume that it is a poncho motor. MIght be a chevy but it is pretty unlikely.

 

if you cant tell if its a chevy or pontiac motor,i guarantee you wont be able to swap a pontiac motor into a 3rd gen.

 

Well the engine code on rear passenger side of block reads #481988(400ci.) ,and has a date code of J201(Oct. 20 1971).
I checked on Pontiac site ,and found this info. Did chevy also use this engine code? I was wondering what I need to do to fit this motor in a 3rd Gen Firebird.
chevyo3

 

No Chevy did not use Pontiac motors.

Everything about that motor is different from the motors that come in these cars. Their motor mounts, their trans bolt pattern, their exhaust, their accessories...... everything. It's a Pontiac motor.

Of course, nearly any motor swap is possible; and some might even be fun. But as far as economics, even if you got the motor for free, it will probably cost more to get it into the car than you could go buy a whole one of the right motor for. The more you can do yourself the more manageable the cost will become; but regardless, it's not a drop-in at all.

If you don't even know how to ID a Pontiac motor from a Chevrolet one, you probably don't have any business trying to swap one into a car that wasn't designed for it.

 

I was not trying to figure out if my 400ci engine was a Pontiac motor or a Chevy motor. My question was can a 1971 Pontiac 400ci engine be put into a Third Generation Pontiac Firebird?
Whether its a Pontiac motor or a Chevy motor had nothing to do with it. Does this site deal with Pontiac stuff also?

 

yes this site does deal with ponitac stuff, but all third gens that came with V8's came with a chevy small block. an older pontiac engine is a no go in a 3rd gen.

as RB said, although anything is possible, but that swap is going to require a lot of custum fab work

 

I guess that blows my idea out of the water. I did not know that all third gens Camaro ,and Firebird had same base motor. Thanks for the info. Do the second generation Firebirds also use chevy small block?

 

well obviously second gen camaro's had chevy motors, but i know that 2nd gen pontiacs did come with pontiac motors, im not sure for how many years, but i know some did.

 

Pontiac stopped making engines in 1981. So if is a Pontiac 81 or older it has a Pontiac motor.

 

A 2nd gen Firebird may have a Pontiac motor... it may also have a Buick V6, a Chevy (305), or an Olds (403). My brother-in-law had about a 78 or 79 one that came with the Olds 403 pig; he yanked that out and put a healthy big-block Chevy in it, it greatly improved the situation. Those will pretty much drop right in, and you can buy all the parts to do it, since Camaros came with big blocks. Everything is off-the-shelf for that swap.

But the facts remain; a Chevy motor and a Pontiac motor are very different, and since a Pontiac motor was never offered in one of these chassis, so there are no off-the-shelf exhaust parts, motor mounts, or transmissions that will bolt up to both the motor and the car. As I said, you can fab your way around the issues; exhaust is the worst, but not impossible. Cubic mega$$$ wouldn't hurt either. A bunch of the Pontiac people on this board have been posting for several years now about somebody that's "going to be" providing headers and maybe even whole swapover kits "any day now"; I'll believe it when I see it, and not before.

But you're right, all the V8 thirdgens came with Chevy small blocks; either 305 or 350. Considering the expense and hassle of putting in a Pontiac motor, you'd be better off sticking with a small Chevy, especially for a daily-driver type car.

 

Cheif Many Horses sells headers and motor mounts for the swap. And a BOP th350 will bolt in like any chevy th350 will. SO for a little over $600 + whatever for a tranny/crossmember/torque arm relocation bracker/driveshaft. the motor will bolt in. The real question is is it worth it to spend around $1000 to put a pontiac motor into your car?

 

it would then be a real pontiac firebird wouldnt it?

 

i think lt1guy is doing a poncho 455 swap into his 85 TA you might try to PM him and see how he's going about it

 

I'm amazed at the number of people in here trying to discourage you from doing this swap. A Pontiac 400 will fit nicely in a 3rd gen f-body car and is not a difficult nor expensive swap to perform if you already have the engine.

 

I think seeing the pics of the caddy motor swap is scarring him off

Yes, do a search, as I belive a couple of people have already done this.

 

Like I said above all the necessary parts to make it a bolt in instilation are aviable. They just cost $$$.

 

Hooker now makes shorty headers for Poncho motors, but unless you upgraded the power, stock log manifolds made more power. Also you'll need the motor mount bracket kit, due to the differnt motor mount locations in the block.

IF you really don't want the 69, keep the drivetrain, part the body. Usse that $$$$$ for the swap. P.S> There are sheeshj loads of aftermarket & factory goodies to make the motor even faster, just make sure the heads have hardened exhaust valve seats if not already & screw in studs. Stud info can be found by researching the Head number.

 

481988 Same engine going into my 87 Camaro "when I get the car ready for it". Should have the 6x4 heads. Milled mine to 81cc for 9.5:1 compression. As said before Chief Many Horses... aka Indian Adventures has what you need for the swap. In stock form the 400 would be a strong engine for your 3rd gen, but also a great one to "build up". Lot of power potential there.

 

p.s. don't forget to have the intake milled to fit heads, but then you knew that already as a smart PONCHO engine owner

 

Dont mill the intake,would make it good for that engine only... mill the intake side of the heads, that way any intake will fit.

 

if you mill the heads too much, the intake wont seat properly & you'll get air leaks. Intake gaskets will only correct up to a certain point.

 

I was surprised at the response to this ,and got alot of great info.
I allready have my 71' Pontiac 400ci. I just need to find a nice third gen firebird to put her in. I will probable part out the 69' Firebird I pulled it from to cover my expenses$$$. The 69' Firebird is in rough shape ,but has many parts that can be salvaged. I will start looking for the info on motor mounts etc. to install into a third gen firebird. Then I will truelly have a Pontiac Firebird.

 

Can you post any pics of the bird for checking possible wanted parts?

 

technically, the 2.5 Firebirds are all Poncho, but we'll not think about that.....:nono:


I'd suggest selling your parts on Hemmings first, more restorers w/$$$$$ hanging around there

& which tranny are you gonna use? TH350, 400, 200-4r or 700-R4 w/adapter plate?

 

Yeah, I'm doing the swap (on my other car though, the '87). Chief Many Horses has the motor mounts (about $85 I think...they bolt right up to the stock V9 frame mounts), and a set of longtube headers, though I have also heard (but not verified) that 2nd gen Pontiac headers will work also. Overall, it looks like an easy enough swap. Straight bolt in, no fabrication at all necessary. The Pontiacs are more expensive to build than a small block Chevy, but not nearly as high as some of the stuff people are swapping now. I'm about to start chassiswork on my car (10 pt cage and subframe connectors, tubular K-member, etc), but i'll post pics once I get the engine sitting in the car. I'll be using the mounts listed above, with custom built (by me ) headers.

 

Hooker makes shorty headers now, unless you really want the long tubes. The latest issue of HPP mag has a side by side comparo of a sheetload of headers to stock logs.

 

hey LT1guy
Are you by chance getting any "in process" pics of your 87? Yours is close to mine but 412 (same block) into 87 Camaro (same body). Mine has been shelved for about a year due to time and money. Getting ready for car cover to come in the mail to close it up again for the winter. Maybe just the kick in the butt to get me going again. Also curious what you are doing for rear end... etc. Would also like to know what you did to that 455 (if it isnt a closely gaurded secret).:hail:

 

I am doing a lot of in-process pics, but so far they just involve the paint/bodywork stages. Real progress is going to start in December when I move. I'll be off for two weeks in December, so I should be able to get lots done.
The block is a standard 73 455, pulled from a Grand Prix SJ. It'll be going to the machine shop after Christmas for splayed 4 bolt caps, boring/honing, balancing, etc. I'm planning to use a 428 crank to destroke it a little, with C&A or Crower rods and JE pistons. Its going to be fully studded, the block partially filled, and I'm going to use Edelbrock Performer RPM heads, ported by me, with Ferrea valves and (likely) Comp Cams springs/locks/retainers/rockers. I'm shooting for about 8:1 compression, since the motor is getting turboed. I'm still undecided whether to go with a blowthru carb setup, or use an Accel DFI VII and go injected. I'm leaning towards injection.
Thats not much help so far, but the whole buildup will be documented on a website. I'm building this car for fun, so there won't be many secrets!
I'm planning to use a Moser 9" with an aluminum carrier, highway gears (probably in the 3.25 range), 35 spline axles, and a Detroit "soft" locker.

 

Rance does port fuel injcection conversions w/manifold. I think it's around $2k for the whole bit.
www.rancefi.com
http://www.rancefi.com/ManifoldsforSale/pontiac4.htm

maybe it's a little more than $2k

edit: also http://www.rancefi.com/ManifoldsforSale/pontiact.htm

 

Gonna be a nice little "toy" when you get it together. Will be looking forward to your website.

 

I'm also seriously considering a Poncho motor swap into my GTA. I'm thinking a 400 block with a 46? stroker crank and alot of other goodies. It will be expensive, but well worth it. If I do it, I'll most likely be going with Indian Adventurer's motor mounts and LT headers, a 200r4, a 12bolt, cage, and other stuff. Will probably add a blower later on