Im building my 383 and I am using my stock oil pan. The problem I am having is that the ARP bolt kit I got for ther mains doesnt allow me to put my stock tray back on. I would have to use 3 of the stock GM bolts which have threads on both ends. then I would use 3 nuts to hold the tray down. The machine shop says they are not using the old bolts and I dont want to either. What are my options here for a windage tray? Do I even need one for a street car? I am NOT buying an aftermarket pan. Does my stock pan have a tray built into the bottom of it? it looks like there is something in there but I think it is to stop oil from splashing around thats all.

 

Hmmm to be honest with ya, i RARELY ever run a windage tray on any of my motors. If you are using a roller cam setup DONT USE ONE whatever ya do. Roller cams and lifters in general for the most part rely on splash and spray method of lubrication from the crank passing through the oil in the pan. I assume you are either running a ARP studs or bolts. Either way your fine not running it with the stock pan.

If ya got any other questions for me, hit me up on aim.

 

thebigwelsh........
Not to start anything, but your info is REALLY MIXED UP!!!!

All cams are oiled by splash oiling and drain back oiling mostly. Even if they wasnt how is a windage screen/tray gonna hurt cam splash oiling???

The cam is above the crank, not below it. The windage screen is below the crank.
A windage screen keeps oil in the sump from splashing back up onto the crank. Cam splash oiling is done by the crank spinning, oil returns through holes in lifter valley darn near straight down onto the cam and crank. then with the crank turning it slangs oil up

BOTTLEDZr28.....

You have ARP bolts or stud for use with out a windage tray. In other words you bought the wrong ones if you wanna use a tray.

Your stock pan has a "stock type baffle" in it. It only helps to keep most of the oil in the sump of the pan. It is not a windage tray

I'm a big fan of oil controll. I seen gains in the 25-50 hp range on engine dynos, from good oil controll system.

The key is the right parts. Like the solid stock type or louver type trays are worthless. I seen dyno's where they hurt power, but the mesh screen like milidon, and speedway motors stainless mesh screen helps alot.

Sticking that on an engine with a stock 4 qt + 1 qt in filter for a 5 qt. system will help some, but you wont get full benifits. The oil in the sump is still too close to the crankshaft. I like the $76 summit 7 qt. kicked out pan (it's made by mildon), just no pretty gold color to it.

With that I use a screen type windage tray, a $5 moroso rear main baffle, and put 5 qt. of oil total in engine.

Just cause it's a 7qt. pan, dont mean to fill it up. Then you might as well keep the stock 4qt. pan cause your back with the oil too close to the crank.

The $5 rear main baffle will not show you a HP gain on a dyno, but it will help with oil controll and faster ET's on the track. On a dyno (engine or chassis) the engine/car sits in one place, on the road the car moves forward, and lifts up in the front. That pushs oil to the rear of the pan. This baffle keeps the oil from flooding the crank at the rear main.

 

good info there. thank you. Will this summit pan fit my car with my slp y pipe setup? What would be the total for eveything I would need to swap over to this setup? The engine is still on the stand so now is the only time I can swap this over. If I dont then it goes in the car with the stock setup. And I really dont want to find out that it doesnt fit when I go to put my exhaust back on. that would be a major kick in the ***** and I have had way to many of those with this car so far.
as far as the ARP bolts go, yes i have the bolts and NOT the studs. I guess you can say I bought the wrong bolts IF I intended on using the stock tray but at the time I didnt know the deal with the bolts vs studs vs fitment thing.(mental note, remember that next time) So, now Im just trying to weight out if it is worth it for me to change over and pay the couple hundred it might cost for the next setup.

Oh ya, any part numbers on that stuff?

 

I can't tell you if the pan will fit with a Y pipe or not. I aint never used a Y on any car. I always fab up real dual exhaust system.. You can take alook at a few of my pics of the pan in the car and see what you think, or do a search on here and see if anybody is running the milidon 7 qt. pan with a Y pipe. I'll post links to my pan pics at the bottom of this post

You want to get the parts from 2 diff places... Summit and speedway. The screens that works good is close to $80 is summit, but speedway has a "knockoff" that is just the same for less than half that.

www.speedwaymotors.com
P/N 910-15101 stainless steel windage tray $34.95
P/N 545-23000 Main cap baffle $4.95

Shipping total between $8.80 and $9.80 and you'll get it in 4-5 days

www.summitracing.com
P/N SUM-G3502 7qt. kicked out pan $75.99
P/N SUM-G3502P oil pump pickup for above pan $19.99
You did'nt say if you had a 2 bolt or 4 bolt main engine so i'll list them both
P/N ARP-234-5501 ARP main studs for 2 bolt main & windage tray $56.88
P/N ARP-234-5601 ARP main studs for 4 bolt main & windage tray $75.88

Shipping total $8.95 and you'll get it in 2-4 days.

Not only will the ARP studs let you run a windage screen, it will also make your bottom end overall strenght more. The studs have better clamping force, and don't "twist" into the block like bolts. With bolts, the block's threads are loaded, with studs the load is placed on the main caps.

http://community.webshots.com/photo/...34958734kZOzDy
http://community.webshots.com/photo/...34958920OLEVux
http://community.webshots.com/photo/...25464322KsXYyS
http://community.webshots.com/photo/...27038781LewLMI

Here's one of the oil pan, scren, pump, pickup, studs, etc all layed out
http://community.webshots.com/photo/...25407811kgLNda

Here's one with the studs, and screen, pump & pick up installed
http://community.webshots.com/photo/...25439967bQjrkR

Here's one with the pan installed on the short block
http://community.webshots.com/photo/...25441150QFfwKa

Here's one with engine fully built with pan on while I was making up the plug wires
http://community.webshots.com/photo/...25451289BIVgKc

 

Here's what I ended up getting. I'm confident my TES Y-pipe will clear everything too!

https://www.thirdgen.org/techbb2/sho...indage+%2Btray

 

I have the Hamburger 6qt pan on my Camaro - I remember having to drill a hole in the screen to clear one of the bolts so the pan would sit right without interference.

Honestly, don't even think about using a 5qt stock pan with a motor rebuild - go for 6 or 7 quarts for extra insurnance. As a matter of fact, Canton makes a great baffled roadrace oil pan with 7 quart capacity specifically for third gen f-bodies, its expensive at $300, but comes with the proper pickup and is a quality piece. I would also run an engine oil cooler (about $100) and the largest oil filter you can get to probably get to 8 quarts.

 

I agree with the above if you have the $$ to spend on a pan with a built-in windage tray.
But I realized quickly that it won't stop there. I had a real nice kicked-out 7 quart pan that I bought when the engine was originally built.

But in order to actually USE the nice 7 QT pan, I found out I'd need a custom Y-pipe for the exhaust. And the headers pretty much pointed straight at the kicked out part of the pan, so even a custom Y pipe would have to be bent sharply and cause restrictions...there was actually alot more to it than just buying a nice expensive pan and throwing it on with no worries. Oh, did I mention it was supposed to fit 82-92 F-Bodies?

-But I'm not familiar with a "Hamburger" pan. That may be the ticket.

I do know the pan I have now (GMPP one) holds 5 quarts instead of 4, plus 1 quart for the filter. Of course, that might not be enough oil if you're a road racer.....

EDIT: BTW Night rider327 - Nice looking engine!

 

Alot of good info starting to form in this thread..


Confuzed1... Thanks man. I'm pretty proud of it. Nice mild, low budget mill that can run the numbers and shock alot of people.

 

I know it wasnt mentioned specifically, but my SLP y-pipe did not work with my Moroso 6qt. pan; I ended up having to get a pipe custom fabbed.

I also had issues with my (Moroso 23020) windage tray. The cap screws of the rods hit the tray with the tray as low as it would safely go on the mounting studs. It had to be modified for clearance. I also had to modify it further because it was bottoming out on the driver side rear main stud/nut and not tightening properly.

The main cap baffle that Nightrider mentioned also would not work properly with the main studs or Moroso pan. By the time it was finally trimmed enough to fit, it had so little material it was basically non-functional.

 

I would just like to add alittle more to this..

There's a few things you need to set up right.

The windage screen needs to be as close as you can get it to the highest thing in your crank/rod package with out it hitting the tray.
Add shims, bend the tray, etc to get it to clear your crank counter weights and rod caps. You only want .010"-.040" gap between the closest part and the bottom of the screen

Remember the older type 60's and 70's stock performance engine trays does nothing, and will hurt HP, not help it. Same with the moroso and other brands of "solid" trays

A crank scraper is nice to add, but those built in to the pan ones are junk. Plane and simple.

A crank scraper must be hand fitted to your crank weights and rods. This is a pain in the butt, takes along time, etc. It's worth it on a race engine, not on a street engine though. It needs to be "file fitted" to with in 0.035-0.050" clearance at the tightest point

A good screen type tray like the milodon and speedway trays will do 95% of the oil controll work.

You will need 5 bolts or studs with the windage tray stand offs on them
2 in the front of tray, second main cap from front, 2 in the next main cap, 1 in the next main cap. The oil pump bolt holds the very rear of the screen.

If you use studs, and install the rear main baffle, you will need to drill out the two mounting holes in the baffle, so the very tip top of the studs will fit through it.

Now this brings me to a major thing.. Oil pump and pick up.

I know yall have heard the storys of a high vol. pump sucking somebodys pan dry and trashing thier engine..... This is total and full BS at it's highest. Sure it could have happened, it most likly did, but it's not the pump. It was the pump/pick up installer that caused that.

Stock the pick up sits 3/8" off the oil pans floor. High vol. pumps are about .3" taller/deeper. So with the pick up back like stock, you have only 1/8" clearance between the pan floor and pick up... That is not enough.

Same goes with low qt. pans. You put a HV pump in, with a 4qt pan, even if the pick up is set right, you may un cover the pick up.
You need to set the pick up to 3/8"-1/2" off the floor. I shoot for right in the middle at 7/16"

lay the pan gasket on the block, with pick up in pump. Now measure from top of gasket to top of pickup.. Write that number down

Now lay gasket on pan, and measure from bottom of sump of pan, to top of gasket. Write that number down
The diff. in those 2 numbers is your pick up clearance, now turn pickup, bent mounting straps, etc and re mausre.. Do this over and over till you get 3/8"-1/2" diff in those numbers

 

Do you have any proof that louvered trays do nothing? I'd just love to see the test data. I kinda doubt they do "nothing", or else they would'nt have been produced in the first place. I do know I've seen proof to the contrary though.

I think buying a kicked out 7-8 quart pan is way overkill for a street driven car myself anyway. Anyone that's driven up a nice steep driveway and damaged thier 400 dollar oil pan will tell you the same. Besides, it seems the original question was:

I'm not taking anything away from you Night rider327 - You put out a lot of good info - even though I don't agree with you on topic of louvered windage trays.

When I finally retire my car to strip only duty, I'd like to run a setup simular to yours. And I'm sure it's a better setup than any louvered pan, but I'm just not a proponent of running deep sump pans and true duals on these cars on the street. There's just not enough ground clearance. But that's JMO...

 

Confuzed1......
I fully agree with you on some of the things you said, and I know what you mean by the clearance probs.

I live out in the sticks where half the roads are still dirt/gravel, 80% of the driveways are dirt/gravel and rough.
I do have alittle clearance prob with my pipes, but never with the oil pan. My pipes will drag about 2" behind the front bend where it goes up to the headers.

The oil pan aint never touched anything though, not even a chip on the paint. Thats on of the benifits of the kicked out sump pans. The sump don't have to be as deep (low), to get the higher qt. out of it.

I guess I kinda worded that wrong. The solid type trays do alittle, I shouldnt have said "nothing", but from the tests I seen, done, and helped with, power was off with them vs. the screen type.

I don't really have any proof that I can show you about the windage trays. I'll see if I can get ahold of my ex boss and get some copies of the old dynos we pulled, but I have seen it atleast 100 times.

I use to work in a speed shop, before I went out on my own, and we used trays on atleast 95% of the engines we built. Done alot of back to back testing and heres the avg. of what happed.

The solid trays (moroso, GM, etc)... Picked up 5-12 hp over no tray at all

The screen types (milodon, speedway, etc) picked up 20-32 hp over no tray at all

Crank scrapers didn't show any gains untill rpm was over 6200 or so.

So the solid type trays does help, but only 1/4 or so as good as the screen types. I'll try to get some of the dynos from my ex boss for real proof, plus with those I can tell you the rpms.. It's been a while be if I remember right the solid one trays helped most in a short RPM span, where the screen types show gains all across the board.

And I know the post was about windage trays, but IMO it's a system. W/O a good oiling system why put one just 1 part. You wouldnt but heads on an engine with out valve springs right?
The pans, the baffles, the trays all work together to make one system. Mis match stuff and you don't get the full benifit. Atleast that's my opinion on it, and how I do it.

Oh.. found something for you to read... I think the link may still work. It's another message board, and the thread is about trays, pans, hp gains, ET gains, etc
http://www.eng-tips.com/gpviewthread...lev2/6/lev3/35