hey everyone im a new guy on the forum! got to say this is a real nice place you guys have here. lots of nice info on everything thirdgen!

well, let me get straight to the point...

I live in an area where street racing is very VERY big and, never really being an import guy, I wanted to build a 3g camaro that will keep up with all the imports in my area. i want lots of power without arousing too much attention with the local coppers.

now, i really want a GM 502 crate in an 85-87 IROC-Z28. i've understood that these cars can pull .90 g on the skidpad bone stock, so with a few mods, maybe some higher spring rates, the suspension should be good. in addition, i plan on installing a cage, as well as some chassis reinforcement to increase rigidity. now, i've heard that the stock stuff on these crate engines is pretty restrictive as far as airflow goes, so would a new intake manifold, carb and (possibly) some new heads be a good idea? i know that the whole drivetrain should be either custom fabbed, or really strong aftermarket stuff. rearend, tranny, driveshafts, ect.

i was hoping some of the experts could help me out with this. (keep in mind that getting the car to pass inspection and keeping it street legal is not a real issue)

Thanks, Nick

 

you've got a pretty big request there... Need more info. A 502 crate motor is a ton of $$, and probably overkill.

What kind of HP at the crank, or rear wheels are you hoping for? Or dragstrip time that you want to hit? You're hoping for straight line performance, over road handling?

First you want to decide on powerplant. Motor style/size, output, etc. Then you can decide on driveline to handle that power. Then finally, suspension. The suspension should be done later, in case your rear end is aftermarket, and you need a different suspension setup.

Any budget or time frame involved? Do most of this yourself, or get someone else to do it?

 

for sneaky big power, swap in a large displacement (408+) genIII or genIV smallblock... you can keep it looking OEM-ish for when the hood must be popped.... and you will have big block headflow and power numbers... plus parts (for the powerlevel) are cheap and plentiful.

 

Cheap gen3/4 parts??? uhh, compared to what, solid gold?

 

i dont mean personally help me with it, i just need advice on how to go about doing this. i was planning on getting maybe 600 RWHP with handling performance to match. i have acess to a pretty well stocked shop, so wrench time and mechanical skills should not be a problem. there is no real budget limit, but i don't want to spend hundreds of thousands on a thirdgen.

 

thats what it seems like your suggesting is spending hundred of thousands LOL

your very ambitous

 

600RWHP? Have you ever driven anything that fast? I can only imagine... It'd be terrifying on the street.

I'd go for a big block then, or a blown 400 block or something.

Look into spohn for rear end and suspension to match. Bilstein or Koni shocks etc.... oh, subframe connectors obviously.

Probably a race built TH400 trans.

 

Best bet is build a pump gas, all-forged internals big block, with some good flowing heads, a strong trans (either a built th350 or 400), an a strong rear end, good tires, and a good drag racing suspension......and then spray the SNOT out of it. You can make a 12.5ish car on engine alone, and a few hundred shot thru it can throw you into the low 10's, plus you can hide the bottle in plenty of places in a thirdgen, there is a guy north of Chicago that says he will pay anyone $1000 if they can find his bottle.....no one to date has found it.

 

new vs new:
$750 CNC ported 241s VS $2300 + porting for equilvent flowing SBC heads. (brodix 18*...ect.)
used vs used:
~$650 CNC ported 241s VS ~$1800 equilvent flowing SBC heads. (brodix 18*...ect.)


SBCs only cheaper if you're willing to go slower.

you can get there pumpgas N/A with a 408 and sound nasty.
you can get there pumpgas N/A with a 427 and sound mildly cammed.
you can get there pumpgas N/A with a 500+ and sound civil.




or you could do a power adder car... supercharger, turbo or nitrous...

really, you need to narrow it down some.
if my budget was unlimited, id probly build something like a 427 sleeved LS2 with ETP LS7 style heads.. top it off with a OEM LS7 intake and a cam in the upper 230s/mid 240 split..... that should be good for ~600ish rwhp... and then hide a moneymaker kit in the manifold for an extra 300 of squeeze if i need it.... feeding in the juice with a NX maxmizer, or other FJO progressive controller....

i could pop the hood on something like that, and while it doesnt look stock to someone that knows, it could fool some... and NOONE would expect it to be as fast as it is.

 

I wanted to keep it naturally aspirated for better control. I mean, straight line performance is great, but i need a car that can turn and brake too.

As far as the engine's output, it would have to be modified to reach the amount of power i'm looking for, but a 502 should be up to the task. Getting the power is not what i'm concerned about, but rather getting it where it needs to go. Once I bolt that motor in, i need to be sure that nothing gets in the way of the power reaching the ground. The trans would have to be a race unit, the rearend would have to be built to stand up to extreme abuse, some fatter tires would obviously be needed, but what size? these are some of the things i need help with.

And what about cooling? Would there even be room in the engine compartment for a fat four core radiator? How much ventilation is there underhood? I'm all for installing some ducts in order for cooler air to make it's way into the engine bay, but i want to maintain a near stock appearance.

I appreciate any help you guys can give me, Nick

 

if you're into turning at all... a big block isnt for you.
if you're into keeping it stock looking, a big block isnt for you.
but its obvious you've never driven a 600rwhp car, and dont know much about building one anyway... and building a sleeper car like that is ALOT harder then building a race car...

to be honest about it... everything you've said so far makes me think you're either naive or just full of crap... but im having fun thinking about the motor id like to build anyway...

 

there can't be that many places to hide a bottle is there?

 

my bottle is hidden inside my roll cage.

 

yes there are.

bull f*cking ****.
how do you fill it? take a pic. heh.


its stupid bull**** like this wannabe racer crap that makes it so this site gets no respect. it just irks me because i goto all of these other sites, and guys dont go blabing on about **** they havent done.. they dont go making up stupid crap to "be cool"... they go out, race, and answer questions.. or they try something, as questions then do it. you could delete 70% of the text on this site and not lose any tech info.
but no. itd full of bull**** like this "hidden bottle" pipe dream that teenagers ******* to during high school.

 

please hammer, don't hurt 'em!

 

re -reading what i said, it came off a bit harsh.. so i'll answer what you asked.

stock style suspenion cars get in the 6s nowdays, so i wouldnt be worried about changing anything too drastic.
first, is this a streetable drag car, or are you expecting to handle in a turn?
if its a drag setup you want, its not hard to do.

as for tires, id run 28" tall ET streets... you'll want the taller tire since you're trying to get traction on a non-prepped street... obviously, you'll gear it to match. 10.5 tire width is fine.. you can fit more if you want. width isnt as important as height in this case.

id be more specific, but your questions are far too vauge.

the stock alum/plastic radiators of the later models cool 400+ci motors just fine in summer traffic... if you want to overkill it, bolt in a aftermarket be-cool radiator.. you should stay on the thermostat then.

with the built in fenders, you woudl think there woudl be cooling issues, but there usually arnt. just run a cold air intake and you wont be missing out on anything. if you do feel the need for additonal venting, all of the high pressure and hot area is along the firewall, so you can:
pulli the inner fender liners, letting it escape out the gap by the door... thats almost invisible.
or run a cowl hood.


once more, if you want to maintain a near stock appearance, runing a bigblock, be-cool radiator, superwide slicks, and cutting for venting isnt exactly the way to go about this.

 

the massive amount of weight in the front end of that car with a bbc in it is not going to be conducive to cornering.

 

A good shop can do it, and they already have kits out to use your roll cage as a bottle. All you need is a sealed container and fittings, which any good welder can do with a pipe before it is welded to the rest of the cage. Google it up there are PLENTY of cars out there.....altho I can't speak for Steve (xpndbl3) but I hear that blue car really is a race car

 

yea, and i can personally weld a bottle that will pass both xray testing on the welds and hydrotesting on the bottle.

but you missed my point by far... btw, why dont you send me a link to one of these kits... or a phone number of where i can buy one.

what you hear is that there's PLENTY of bull**** out there on the internet.

 

I don't know if I would want nitrous running all through a roll cage that I'm sitting in, seen videos of too many bottles going BOOM just sitting there in the hot sun.

 

Personally, I'm very, very down on that type of activity.
Here's some expert advice - Don't street race. People get killed doing that stuff, it puts a black mark on the whole hobby, and I don't condone discussing it here. There is a Street Racing forum on the Board; I have voiced my objections to it formally and officially, but I don't own the Board - so that forum lives on.

That's my personal position and opinion. We can talk about the engine swap aspects here, and even maintaining handling, but I really don't want this to turn into a street racing thread.

Anyway, Shafiroff Crate Engines, Chevrolet Performance, GM Crate Engines, Muscle Car Engines, High Performance Engines .

 

I have SEEN this a few years back, and it wasnt made TO BE USED AT THE TRACK. This was a complete street car that won this guy some money, and he hid the nitrous in the cross tube that goes from one side to the other in the loop above the drivers head. It was on a mid 80's fox body mustang that was in dark primer gray and ran on the south side of Chicago. The guy hid the lines buy running them on the seat side of the bar, hid the fittings under the loose ends of the harness flaps, and painted EVERYTHING flat black. It was a money making street car, and it was really fast on the street too.

The guy ran a bottle too so he could use that to levy against someone he was racing. he only got one run out of the bar, but when you are racing for 2-3 grand, one race is all you need.

Look at it this way, Ed "Big Daddy" Roth built a custom car where the WHOLE FRAME held gas for the car, look that up on his website.

Choppers and some bikes USE THE FRAME for oil holding capabilities.

Hell Indian Larry made a chopper frame from chain links

so why wouldnt some one use a back alley welded tube hidden in the roll cage to spray nitrous??

just because YOU cant find it on the internet or in south carolina (cause maybe street racing isnt that big out there or something) doesnt mean it doesnt exist. PERIOD.

plus a REAL nitrous bottle isnt ALWAYS at 10 psi, when it is getting empty it is less, and when you only need a run or 2 off spray why bother with filling it up to 10 psi

 

mrdude1 is coming off rather harshly in this thread. Weld on a filler adapter to your cage tubing and hide the fitting behind the interior plastic. Done and done, now definately not safe without a blowdown tube, etc but just because you haven't seen it doesn't mean there isn't guys running around the southside of chicago street racing with it.

 

yea. more like 1000psi...


ok, heres a hint for starters.
whats the volume of the largest bar in the rollcage?
now, explain to me how you're going to fit atleast 5LBS (thats pounds, not PSI) of nitrous in there.
a nice 5lb bottle might last one run on a decent nitrous shot.


btw, the guy with it hidden in the cage must have been very upset.. i mean, here he spent all this time hiding his custom bottle/cage thing.. and someone who doesnt even know much about nitrous can spot it.... and it must have been really upsetting because its not even his primary power adder.. either its just a tiny shot for that little extra on a run, or its a big shot that only lasts a second or two, and he got caught with it on his car.. poor guy. i feel for him. [/fake pity]


yep.
how do you think i feel when i goto other great tech boards, have fast guys to talk to, tech forums full of tech info.. then i goto my "home" board... the one where its supposed to be full of tech info for the cars i love, know, and have owned since i was 15.... and find its full of crap. always. because when most people learn, race, and DO... they eventually leave the site for better things... so with few exceptions, you get the same age of dip****s that are the mental equilvent of.... well, i could go on, but basicly, they're all young, inexperianced, and wont shut the hell up.

as for making a bottle to hold nitrous pressure... like i said, lots of people CAN do it... most wouldnt be safe, but thats not the problem.

ok, so its there, its part of the car.. now unless its removable, how are you going to fill it? that is, any idiot can attach a line.. but how do you know what MASS (not pressure) of nitrous is in the bottle?
how are you getting enough volume to contain enough for a shot? how are you compensating for your tiny bottle that drops pressure alot as you're spraying?
theres so many problems with doing it, that its highly improbable, and nothing more then a pipe dream (pun intended).... now, that said, there has been things like this done... but not by people on this forum talking like they are here.

if you really want to get into the nitrous subject, start a thread in the nitrous section, and PM me a link. right now im waiting to find out how the thread starter expects a big block chevy that can deadhook on the street to handle in corners.

 

Some people find me controversial when i get into things like this but i will get straight to the point. why not take the racing to the track.... if/ when you get pulled over from a street race you WILL lose your car, your hard earned precious baby, or worse you die or kill someone else.
the drag strip is built for speed, its a science. there is a reason streets have a mph limit because the roads themselves were not created to keep a car gripped to a road at excessive speeds...
people die everyday because of street racing. Just do it right bro...
You might think its cool, but you cant brag when you die.

 

you are missing his point here Steve....he KNOWS EVERYTHING , and if he hasnt seen it done, or done it himself, it doesnt really exist

and i am done with the thread......the know it all is here and can straighten everything out

 

bye. dont kill yourself with the 10psi of nitrous.......


now if only everyone else who posts dumb **** would leave..... then i wouldnt come off as such a know it all *****.

 

I wouldn't count on it.

 

This thread is straying of topic and the topic supports illegal activity anyways. i am not trying to be a jerk, just my opinion, I love cars more than anything. i do it for the cars i promise.

 

I just got back from the track. We got one round it before it started raining and we had to shut down. Both my son & I won our round, so we'll get the season points for the round.

The Camaro isn't the fastest thing out there, but that isn't the point. Cutting a good light, running what you predict and not breaking out are the goals. All done sanctioned and safely. My son runs it in the High School class which has an ET limit of 11.70 & slower (the guy he ran actually dialed an 11.70, broke out with an 11.53 - oops - but the other guy had a .2x light to my son's .017, so it was an easy win for him).

While I was in the staging lanes tonight, one of the track employees told me there were only 90 cars out for Wednesday night's "Take it to the Track" test & tune night. He said he punched one guy's run-card 28 times - they were just hot-lapping and having a great time - either just running, or grudge matching, whatever they wanted for $35 entry fee and a tech inspection.

I realize not everyone lives 7 miles from the track like I do. But, that's still no excuse for the dangerous activity of this thread subject.

Enough said, I believe. Say "Goodnight, Gracie. . ."