i have a 1985 IROCZ perfect cond. just needs a motor..... now i see everyone on these threads ask 305 or 350. well neither! what do you guys think about a 4bbl 327 IROC 5speed or a TPI 302 5speed? The car is origionally carbed, but i have a donor TPI 86 IROC, i dunno i want something differant. So let me hear some opinions!

 

theres a reason everyone picks the 350. its the perfect blend of performance potential while still being very reliable
I could be wrong but isnt a 302 a ford engine? its certianly not a stock CCI...is it?

 

Chevy made a small block 302 from 1967 to 1969. It had the 4" bore of the 327 and 3" stroke of the 265 & 283. The one I had back in '74 was a 327 small-journal block with a 283 crank, with 302 pistons, and LT-1 heads & solid cam. The '68 & '69 factory 302's had large journal cranks, making them unique for factory displacement engines.

You can take a current LT1 350, put a baby LT1 crank in it with special pistons, and make your own 302. That would best be left EFI, though, not converted to carb.

It's been discussed so many times on this and the Engine/General Tech forum that you can, with our currently-operation search function, see for yourself why this is not a good way to spend performance $'s.

 

Keep in mind TPI is a low rpm induction system, its not very impressive over 5000rpm, its more like a brick wall. Even with aftermarket help, TPI is not the way to go. And you're talking about building short stroke, big bore motors. Those like to turn lots of RPM, and need to really have good induction and exhaust to be effective. If you're going to go that route (big bore, short stroke) your going want to consider a better breathing EFI system, or carb. Or, spend less money, and just build a normal internal 350, or 383, you'll see better streetable power with less expense.

 

A 302 in an iroc?! shoot youself now i hate ford and h8 mix maching ford and chevy brands even more

 

Gee, I first heard "Why would you be putting a Ford engine in a Chevy?" back in 1974. . .

If you want to go back and read this thread thoroughly, you will realize that nobody is talking about putting a Ford in a 3rd gen.

Blue_IROC_86,
"Different" means either "more expensive than necessary", or "slower than everybody else". Or both.

 

You don't have to limit yourself to a 350 LT1 block or special pistons. Just grab ANY one piece rear seal SBC block, use the 4.3 L99s 3.00" stroke crankshaft, its 5.94" rods, and ANY piston meant for a 350.

 

Five7Kid is right, Chevy (GM) had the 302 in 68-69 Camaro and Nova 67-70. The first Z28 Camaro had a 302 & went to 350 in 1970. When I was in the Army back in ancient times, some us helped setup a buddie's 302 Nova with a Tunnel Ram, Crane Cam, Ported heads with 456 gears, Slicks & Headers, ect, as a project and he turned in the low 12's consistantly. They will run. I would say that it's cheaper to set up a 350 because 327 maybe hard or expensive to come by. Back in my day i've seen 327's run with 350's all day long. On the street & Strip. But that was when we where still chunking spears at one another. As an old man I learned that any small block Chevy will run like hell if set up right.(Even a 305). That's a Fact. No Wat I Meen...

 

choosing to build a smaller cubed motor on a ground up build just to be cool, different, or retro is doing nothing but throwing away performance. i can understand pulling the old 327 out of the barn, blowing the dust off of it, changing the oil, and stabbing it in the iroc. if you have it and you're on a tight budget, by all means, but going out and shopping for one?

gonna use that ancient holley 2140 you have sitting around just to be cool also? how about points? LG4 exhaust manifolds?

its your car friend, and more power to you, but you're gonna kick yourself in the teeth when you accept the fact(that you already know) that the parts you dumped into your smaller mill would be much more effective in a bigger motor.

 

Your right Tobias05, I was just daydreaming. Your giving the right advise...

 

i understand what you guys are saying,... but yes any SBC you set up right, will make power either way.... but you can use a 4" bore 350 with 350 pistons and a differant crank and have custom Ci. besides, 327's had a unique rumble to them. and FYI im only staying tuned port if i stay 305 or 350. i just want a comeback for forgotten powerful motors.
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yes, i understand 302's and 327's are hard to come by. I just thought it would be nice to breathe some old life into a newer car. go sleeper oldschool. but eh' i have a 305 TPI ill just take all the wireharness and TPI setup and throw it in the 5 speed car, (hate autos) only thing that sucks is the 85 is setup for carb. But in reality i have a complete donor iroc with no title, so its not expensive at all, just time consuming.....


But again, thank you for all the advice these message boards truley are a godsend to any thirdgen owner..

(BTW i need a 305 TBI to throw in my S10 Blazer.)

 

You need to decide before you get going on your project. If you want fast and powerful, you don't want TPI. Go with a 400 small block. No replacement for displacement. That or get a new LSx engine.

 

i dont know why everyone hates TPI.... its actually a very good setup, cuz for some reason my iroc keeps me planted in my seat up til 6k. i mean yea, i could get a SB 400. but hows that going to work for a everyday driver? i was only thinkin smaller cubes to save on gas and still have a SBC. you kno the old "econo-racer" route. besides it took me 3 days to find an old 327 longblock. ran the vin and its out of a 67 camaro. anyways ive decided the 327 is going in my 89 Blazer. btw why is it so impossible to put a GM 12 bolt in a third gen?

 

Because there is no factory direct bolt in 12 bolt for a third gen. Third gens use a torque arm rear suspension. Although all the other mounts such as shocks, panhard bar etc can be switched over, any junkyard 12 bolt will have no way to mount the torque arm. You also have to be aware of the diff width. There are many different types of vehicles out there and they all use different widths.

If you want a 12 bolt under your car, you need to buy an aftermarket bolt in diff designed for third gens.

As for a smaller engine getting better mileage, don't believe that. A larger engine can get just as good or even better mileage. A small engine in lightweight cars can get good mileage. Trying to move a 3500 pound third gen with a tiny engine isn't efficient. What kind of mileage did the 4 cylinder 2.5L iron duke engine get in 82?

As for power, most good engines should be able to achieve 1 HP per CID although many are far short of that. A 302 can make 302 HP while a 350 can make 350 HP. That's a 48 HP increase with nothing more than displacement. The 350's longer stroke produces more torque. Torque is what you feel while driving around stoplight to stoplight.

A 302 is a road race engine where it's always driving around at high rpms

 

Go find a fast naturally aspirated TPI car for me. Something in the the 10's or faster. I bet you wont find too many.

 

i have a 86 iroc clone with a 327 in it. carb not tpi. i build the motor for a weekend driver i could take to the strip here are there. anyways point is motor makes 418 bhp at flywheel and 389 ftlbs but to get that power i got to spin my engine to 7600 rpm. not very streetable for a dialy driver. of corse my motor was built for that and you could build yours for a lower rpm range . but it is always going to want to make more power up top. dont get me wrong i love the 327 great motor and they sound great i have 2 but i wouldnt want to drive either of them everyday. you are right though a 327 in a iroc is pretty cool

 

NHRA Stock Eliminator. The 305tpi cars run deep in the elevens, and the LG4 cars run low twelves. And they have to run unported stock heads, unported stock intakes, stock pistons, stock rocker arms, no more lift than the stock cam, all steel bodies, full stock interior. Whenever anyone on here says "it can't be done-you need blah blah blah" I think of those cars.

 

I don't believe that. I don't think we have anyone on the boards here who is making 400 hp with a N/A 350 TPI.

 

You probably also wouldn't believe that the F.A.S.T. cars run tens on repro G70-15 bias ply tires-with cast iron exhaust manifolds.

Google is your friend.

 

I'm pretty sure Stock eliminator guys are allowed camshaft changes along exhaust changes. Unless this has been changed since I last looked. The only thing that needs to remain stock on the cam is the type and lift. None the less, this wasn't the point of my original post. I'm talking about cars going fast on power.
TPI doesn't make big power cheaply. It doesn't flow nearly well enough. That's why it's not popular in a lot of cases. You can buy a 400 dollar Holley double pumper that will support a whole lot more horsepower than a TPI system will.

 

Note these numbers:

 

How many are driven on the street? Any idea what it costs to get one of those cars to run like that?

There are aftermarket allowables for all of those engine parts.

 

blue iroc i think you need to figure out what this car is gonna be intended for. there is alot of knuckle heads on here who think you cant make the stock or even a modified setup work so they take the CHEAP

 

easy way out and just unbolt and throw away the tpi. figure out what the main use is gonna be for this car street, drag, road race or just something your gonna cruise and get some fun out of. not everyone wants a lump non idleing car that runs tens , i think that a 302 would be really cool if you could get the tpi to make power , and know i dont mean a ford 302 for those of you who dont know any history about the first z28 get a z28 history book and read before you spit some stupid stuff out on here. dude build withen your budget and and go with what you want. hope to see some pics of it soon later

 

That's exactly my point. It's cheaper. He can take whatever TPI setup he wants and I can pretty much guarentee you I'll be able to build something better for cheaper by not using TPI. I understand people want to do something different, and by all means that's great (a 302 TPI is pretty different I must say). But the majority of people here don't want to spend big dollar to go fast.

Honestly, I don't like "different". "Different" doesn't feel as good as +500 ft/lbs of torque in a street car.

 

this is old but ya i actually pulled my 305 tpi and threw in a 327 with the double hump heads "2.02 and 1.94" and tuned ported it. it beet ------------ my friends 1997 lt1 camaro. now of course im running a 400 sb with a scat crank big cam tune ported which is even better!!

 

if you do a little research you'll find claims that the CHEVY 302 made close to 400 hp, but they were rated at 290 because of insurance. that would be a cool roc if you had a 302 but vrey expensive to build! so when you start some project like that, be ready for all kinds of problems!

 

You can build one for the same money as a 305 or a 350. Use an L99 crank and rods, Silvolite makes a cheap lightweight flat top 350 piston that weighs less than a stock L99 piston so it wouldn't cost any extra to balance it. Also, the short stroke/long rod combination effectively "pulls harder" against the intake side so it might actually work with a TPI. It also moves the piston speed "sweet spot" higher in the rpm range so it might also get better economy with the deeper gears it would need to perform well, and into the rpm range where the TPI is most effective. Frictional losses are far less. Since EFI can fill in the low end power, it would also have a broader rpm range with with less cam timing than would be required with a 305/350 or 383 with a longer stroke.

Popcorn ready-flame away!

 

did the 302 make more power then rated? probably....but what everyone looks past is that the 302 made power up high. solid lifter cam turning alot of rpms....really cool and good for road race cars not street cars....my "American Muscle" book by Randy Leffingwell says it best in the coverage of the 1969 302 Z28 Camaro. The 302 "created alot of top-end horsepower and little low-end torque. The good news was that the car had greater flexability near the top of each gear and a higher top speed; the bad news was that a freight train could accelerate from a stand still faster...and perhaps quieter"
290hp @ 5800 RPM
290 lb-ft @ 4200 RPM
11.0:1 Compression Dual cfm Holley 4bbl carbs and Cross Ram Induction...

Stick with a 350 or 383. The 350 was born with the 67 camaro, they debuted together they belong together in my opinion...

 

Have actually been thinking of dropping a 327 into my Trans Am and making a stroker out of it. Just some hopeful ideas. Need to find a stronger tranny first though. lol.

 

factory 302 trans am cars would have between 400-500 hp using factory parts from the 60-70's. Trans am racing required 302 cid or less and all parts must be factory options or available to the public. You can make the small displacement V8's scream just by utilizing your power band with shift points. Anyways it don't matter the size of the engine as I found with my old 85 rx7 with a littl 1.1 liter rotary that would eat cumstain GT's and molest most F-bodys but that was with a 10200 redline with power from 6k-10k. I would consider a mild 337 with the way gas is but if I have money for gas then a sbc 427 with a power band up in the 6k area and a good 500-600hp. It don't matter if it is a 100ft monster or a late 1/8th car as long as it makes it down there in a good time.

 

Large or small journal crank?

A stroked large journal 327 is known as a 350 or 383.

 

Why not go with the new LS327 that GMPP is getting ready to launch. Its rated at 327 bhp at the flywheel and there talking decent pricing for us working folk! If interested check out Hot Rod Magazine Oct. 2008 p.94! It seems like it work make a great base to start.

 

If its an LS style "327" that would just be a 5.3L, would it not? A 5.3L LS engine is 325ci. They were rated around 300hp in every truck/van/suv they came in IIRC.

 

They were actually 323 ci. They are of the same that came out of trucks and vans. The difference is it comes with a .479 lift cam and is a carburated intake. It produces 327 hp/ 347 lb. ft torque. It can be had for 3200. It leaves alot of room for mods!

 

Yep, thats the one. The following from GMPP:



LS327/327 MSRP
$4,382.86

Enlarge image [+] 19165628
LS327/327

What's Hot?
Performance camshaft
Grafal-coated pistons
Great fuel mileage

A souped up 5.3 that is ready and willing to deliver
Continuing the tradition of great small-block V-8 engines, the 5.3L LS engine has been one of the most popular we've ever built. It's been installed in millions of GM-built pickups, work trucks, vans, and SUVs. But, leave it to the GM Performance Parts engineers to go one step further and upgrade the 5.3L LS. The result is a High Output 5.3 that is just as capable serving as a workhorse it's just a little bit more fun.

We started with the base engine the tough, proven, and dependable 5.3L engine. It's the same long-lived production engine that you'll find in our award winning full-sized truck and SUV line. The stock 5.3 offers a dependable 295 horse-power and 325 lb.-ft. of torque from the 96mm bore by 92mm stroke engine design.

What makes our LS327/327 crate engine so special is that our engineers added a GM Performance Parts performance cam and Grafal-coated pistons. With these simple upgrades, the LS327/327 kicks out 327 horsepower and 347 lb.-ft. of torque. And, just like the stock 5.3, the LS327/327 is capable of thousands of miles of dependable service while returning outstanding fuel mileage, thanks to the superior design of the LS Family of engines.

 

And is also pump gas friendly correct?
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Nevermind.... answered my own question!!!

 

I don't know why we haven't heard about someone using a 5.3 in a third gen yet. (Maybe you have, I haven't.) There must be dozens of them in the wrecking yard. Sounds like a pretty good platform.

 

Was something I was pondering for my 89 RS... but would like to see 450 at the flywheel! Like you I haven't heard of anyone doing this yet!
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It wouldn't be that hard of a set-up... hell you could probably even supercharge it and come out to the good for a street car. Uses standard LS1 component I believe!

 

.

 

According to GMPP's catalog, youyr looking at 9.5:1 Compression ratio, 6 bolt main caps, 1.7:1 rockers and aluminum heads. Bore is 3.18x3.62. peak horsepower was at 5500 rpm, peak torque at 4600 rpm

 

Only reason I was thinking 327 is because I may have access to one in the near future. If my father feels like passing it over to me. lol. He doesn't own any GM's nor will he ever (Mustang owner) so I'm hoping he will let me drop it into my Trans Am. My 305 has a HORRIBLE oil leak and has a lot less power than the 327... on top of it being about 200k miles on it and being filthy... might as well if I can get it. lol. No, I'm not being lazy or anything, but I would rather have a 327 under my hood than a 305.

 

There are fewer 5.3s in Camaros because most people won't put the 5.3 when you can have an 6.0L. There is a build floating around that makes 550hp with L92 heads. That's carbed, cammed and on pump gas. That's a touch more than 330 from the lonely 5.3. If you're going to spend the time and money swapping into an LSx motor, you might as well go big.



Save your time, effort, and money, and don't swap in a Gen I 327. Why? Don't tell me it's because you can't afford a 350? I bought a fully assembled 350 for 24 dollars. It needed a rebuild, but came complete from intake to oil pan. There is absolutely no reason to install anything else when 350s can be had so cheaply.

If you're going through the time and effort to install a motor, you might as well go with a 350 or larger. You can simply swap all the items on the 327 or 305 over to the 350 for temporary purposes and build on it in the future.

 

You're missing the point. My father has a fully assembled 327 with 350 bowtie heads and all. Everything on it is 100% complete and ready to be bolted in. The only thing I would need for the swap is a stronger transmission. I can buy a turbo 350 for dirt cheap from a friend of mine if I need to. My father said something about maybe letting me put that 327 into my car and if he decides to let me, I'm doing it.

Most of us aren't so lucky to find a fully assembled 350 for $24. I could possibly rip a 350 from a junker at pull-a-part for less than $150, but I have a hard time finding a headlight motor and seat belt buckles... let alone a fully assembled engine. Most of the time the intake is gone, hood open, left in the weather with who knows what resting down inside there. Now if I had about $1400, I would buy a crate 350 TPI, but I don't and my father just happens to have that 327 that I may be entitled to, if he so decides, so why would I say no to that and buy a 350 when I can just use the 327?

(Not trying to be rude or come off as an *** at all, but for the sake of arguing 327 vs 350, keep your cool and explain anything I'm not getting)

 

I disagree. Getting an LSx (6.0 L) motor is usually at the huge sacrifice of your pocket book. And actually laying your hands on one is a whole different story. 330 HP is respectable horsepower. My thought was if there were a supply of 5.3 motors at the yard then economically this would be the way to go. Frankly, I would rather have a well built 5.3 in a vehicle that had high performance chassis components than 6.0 550 HP dropped in your everyday thirdgen. Not everybody is looking for, or needs 550 HP. If you read the HOT ROD magazine article mentioned earlier you will see that the 5.3 ran a 12.34 105.67 1/4 mile, right there with the infamous ZZ4/350. The LS3 6.2 ran a 11.33 114.25. A big difference at the track but not so much on the street. Here are the other numbers;

LS7 7.0 10.781 @ 120.33
ZZ4/350 12.47 @ 105.67
ZZ383 11.70 @ 111.71
ZZ427 11.351 @ 115.94
ZZ572 10.21 @ 128.98
LSX454 10.54 @ 120.33

 

Most people don't have "nice" 327 laying around. My impression was you had some run of the mill POS motor you were going to rig up and put in there.

 

If you search around you can find 6.0L.

330 hp? That's really not that much. Maybe in 1980 it was, but in today's world, a 450 hp street able car is easy to build.

And what kind of vehicle did they have this in where it went 12.34? That's pretty fast for 330 flywheel horsepower. I'm guess I'm weighing in at just under 430hp and I'm only going 12.80s.

Granted I have no suspension work as of yet and I am a terrible driver. But still, even if I took my high 1.8x 60' and got it down to 1.6, that's only .6 tenths of a second on the big end. I see no better than low 12s if my car was set up perfectly.


Just my 2cents!

 

They are basically the same motor. The bore and the cam are the only 2 differences that I found. The 5.3 could be had for much less, thereby keeping funds for other mods. I understand what your saying but we are talking availability. Anybody around my neck of the woods is buying up 6.0 to replace their 5.7! Just an opinion
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From personal experience, my 01 Suburban 4x4 has the 5.3, it moves 6800 lbs. pretty decent, so subtract almost 2-3000 lbs. and hang on!

 

Not a bad price - but that doesn't appear to include the intake manifold, or the electronics, just the heads down- figure w/ an ignition and manifold you'd be at like $4200. The carb'd 6 liter LSx is $5k, but that as everything expect the spark controller and carb. So for a bit over $1000 more invested, you might as well go with the extra 110hp.

If that was a complete with the ignition and manifold, it would be a better deal.

 

I'm not saying call up GMPP and order! Check local boneyards and Ebay! They have a few on there for around $600. All with less than 100k miles on them. Order the intake, electronics, carb, and serpentine system. Add your cam, headers, etc... and you can still come out cheaper than probably 3k! Why not buy one , have it bored to 4.00, and make your own 6.0 but for a hell of alot less. All while remaining pump gas friendly! I think Kevin would agree, correct?