ok thanks naf ill splice wire that first thing tomorrow and plug the ecm into the hei... now as for that curb idle screw, is it phillips flat, double d?? im gonna step out into the garage and look right now, ill get back to u

 

87 curb idle should be a torx. Earlier ones were a flat tip.

 

ok found it, yes T15
she starts up relatively easy, runs for a little bit, then shuts off, fuel gauge is jumping around 3-5, IAB is 4 turns out, primaries are 3.5 turns out, cant get it to run long enough to use the dwell meter, idled it up to 1500, then all the way out on the curb idle screw=1000rpm she will take throttle if you roll into it, but then dies and spits white smoke out the carb. pretty much only wants to run as long as she wants to, throttle input wont keep it going :/
i did get the o2 sensor hooked up today...
now i have a leaking power steering pump, its the cap... somehow i lost the cap gasket :/ so after she spilled a substantial amount on the floor of the garage i stopped messing with her.
could the timing being off a little make it run like this? the dwell was around 20% on the 6cyl scale when i got over there to look at it, then she died. still didnt test the TPS as i couldnt get a connection with my "needles"
she does sound mean as hell though, and much better then last time i had her going

 

Get your timing right before trying to make any adjustments to the carb including idle speed.

Then re-check for vacuum leaks. I like to plug EVERY port on the carb with a cap, get everything dialed in, then re-connect one at a time. If one is leaky you'll notice a change in how it's running.

 

the only thing thats not capped on the carb is the choke, and its just going to the T in front of the carb, im almost 98% sure theres no vac leaks but i will cap the choke if you think its necesary. i really dont think the timing is that far off, but i cant get it to stay running so i can set the timing correctly anyway, SO u think the timing is the main issue here?

theres a shop down the street here with a Dyno that i contemplated taking it to, BUT they told me they've never tuned something like this before

really wish there were a TGOer close

 

Turn the dist to get the best idle. See if you can get it to smooth out.

 

yeah thats the problem, doesnt want to find the sweet spot

 

Won't idle suggests lean idle or vacuum leak. If it was rich idle that would be visible out the tailpipe(s). Once you get it idling, you can check for leaks by spraying WD40 at the carb base and the intake gaskets. If that shows nothing, then try plugging both VCs in case the intake gaskets are leaking from the lifter valley. I don't like trying to find an idle without manifold vacuum advance. Buy a new 2' length of hose, test that, use it to test the dizzy vacuum can, then use it to check the carb's vacuum port, then connect them. If the idle is rough, the vacuum gauge should wiggle a little until you fix the cause. Watching a vacuum gauge while spraying for leaks still leaves you free to listen for a change in RPM. The revs will climb if you spray at a vacuum leak, unless your idle is rich, then the revs will drop. It sounds like a stumble or a bog. If your QJ has factory-sealed idle mixture screws, then pull the carb, butcher the seals, and re-install the carb with a new, thin, 4-hole gasket. I've heard of guys drilling the seals with the QJ still on, but I'm leery.

 

We're dealing with a computer controlled qjet here along with the electronic dizzy. And the carb's already been rebuilt.

 

Just to re-check something, but have you verified your fuel pressure while running? I know the ECM will send a prime signal to the pump when you key on before you start, but does it run after you start the car?

Its kind of sounding to me like you are emptying the float bowls of the carburetor and its dead after all the gas runs out of the carb. That could also happen if the little filter inside the quadrajet fuel inlet is plugged up.

I would pull that fuel inlet nut, verify the little filter inside is clean or new, then jumper the fuel pump to run all the time when you crank it up next time. There doesn't seem to be enough of a problem to actually shut off the engine from running, in regards to your electrical system, you know what I mean?

 

ok ill try to get some help and spray wd40 at all the possible leak points while shes running.
the fuel pressure gauge is fluctuating badly, BUT increases pressure with throttle increase. which leads me to believe that the fuel pump IS on, although i cant actually hear it while its running because the engine noise is so loud. as for the carb inlet filter, i dont remember reinstalling it honestly i thought the inline filter before the regulator was enough ??? im pretty sure i ditched the filter and the spring. should i get replacements>?
if i can get hold of a camera, would it help you guys to see a video of what shes doing?
BTW like naf said its a ccqjet, and the misture screws are adjustable with the double d bit

 

So? The HOT cam is gonna need a richer idle. I've played with the CCC Q-Jet from my '84 LG4 T/A, I know enough about the idle screw situation on these CCC Q-Jets. I stand corrected on the vacuum advance for this car, but what I posted may help others. Does this car have an in-tank pump? If so, I'd re-wire it to ignition hot. Better to wire in an oil pressure switch, but the factory version isn't good. A Q-Jet with a full fuel bowl but no fuel feed should idle longer than described.

 

I'd run both fuel filters. Needle fluctuating badly might be the regulator opening / closing. Video often helps, try to keep the microphone out of the wind, and aimed the opposite direction of the exhaust tip(s). Good lighting with no sun glare of any chrome, no traffic noise. For me video makes the distractions 10x worse.

 

I guess I found the thread you said you had here on NJFBOA. naf and Atillia were the guys who helped me out. So listen to what they have to say. I believe KrisW also helped out, sorry guys I don't recall every name who helped out when I first got mine running.

Anyway, as I said on NJFBOA, I can run out there with a timing light and a couple other things to see if I can't help you get it running again. I'm rusty on my carb work, but based on what you say, it sounds like the same problem I had, the timing was way out. I am in Northwest NJ, 15 minutes from Rt. 80. Wouldn't mind heading out for the day. Not sure what your schedule is, but I work part time on Friday and Sunday nights. Otherwise I am game if you are.

 

yeah man sounds great! sending u a pm

 

so... had a good time hangin out with L695spd, and through carefull examination and research we figured out that the brand new accell distributor cap was bad, and so was the MSD coil wire? go figure!, parts ordered and on the way. back to the drawing board.

oh yeah L695spd gave me a paper filter and the spring for the carb, so thats covered

btw, would a bad cap and coil wire cause it to run a little then shut off?

 

Yeah talk about a shocking discovery lol. Hopefully that resolves some of it. I do know we can't deal with the timing properly til that is fixed. You would likely know within 30 minutes time if you have the parts whether or not some of the problems went away.

 

ok so i got a new cap and coil wire, no more shocking, but still runs a little then shuts off, a friend suggested that by the way it sounds that it is an electrical issue, and that the ESC may be the possible cause... is it possible that a bad esc would make it shut off after a few moments of running? if i get a chance ill get a new video up of what it does its killing me i was really hoping to drive this summer she has around 4psi fuel pressure i will be checking all vacuum points sometime in the near future, thanks for any help guys

 

increased fuel pressure seemed to help a little, no one has any ideas huh?

guess im going to have to save up to have it towed to a shop

 

If it was my car, I'd do two things before I paid a repair shop to look at it.

First, I'd unplug the fat pink coil wire and plug in my own fat wire, with constant 12v+ going to it. That takes the ignition switch out of the picture and assures you that you have 12 volts going to the coil at all times. I'd also either have my volt meter T'd in to the main power of the ECM or have that wire jumpered as well. I would want to verify that the ECM is not getting shut off from power and that the coil is not being shut off.

Second is fuel. I would tee in one of those little inline fuel pressure pressure gauges right in front of the carb so that I could have someone else crank it up and I could verify that it was not running out of fuel right before my very eyes.

How did the old LG4 engine run before you pulled it out? Did you do anything with that low pressure helper pump in the tank? When that pump dies it can cause a major restriction in your fuel system and cause you to run out of gas quickly.

I'll go back and re-read this thread and see what else I can see. Never give up!

 

Did you replace the fuel pump switch that threads into the block next to the oil filter? If you didn't, then your intake pump shuts off the fuel after a few moments of running. The ECM will turn it on to prime it up, but the oil pressure switch cuts in and powers the fuel pump after the engine is running.

I'm still re-reading your entire thread but I'm not finding anything on that. A quck test will be to jumper the 12v+ wire from your fuel pump relay to the tan/white wire and listen for the fuel pump running. Then crank it up and see if it stays running.

Sorry if you already did this and I'm beating a dead horse. Like I said, I'm still finishing the re-read on your posts!

 

I don't think the sensor above the oil filter is connected to anything?! but that sounds like it could be the problem, somewhere in here I asked about that sensor and someone told me it was not needed on an LG4 engine so I left it unplugged it was towed to the shop Monday, I didn't received notification for your post and I haven't checked this for a while because I thought no one responded. I will go to the shop and suggest this to the mechanics there. what does the fuel pump relay look like and where is it? and can I buy a replacement "fuel pump switch?" does I look like this http://www.rockauto.com/catalog/more...025&cc=1035627 ?

 

Your 87 should use a fuel pump switch tee'd off of the oil pressure boss behind the rear china wall (behind distributor). There should be a single wire connector to the oil pressure guage and a two wire connector to the switch. The relay is near the booster and looks like the fan relay.

You could use either sensor but your factory LG4 wiring won't reach the one near the filter.

 

that one is plugged in naf, thanks... we will soon see what the shop finds

 

so apparently the valves were lashed improperly, causing the engine to run like crap and shut itself down??? they also said that "the cam and heads are too much for the stock carb because the jets are too small" they recommended that I get a holley 750 and a mechanical advance distributor...

who thinks the stock carb/engine management system CAN keep up?

I found a 650 holley and a vac advance dizzy in the junkyard and I should be able to get it relatively cheap... but id rather tune the Qjet to work for now and then upgrade later on... thoughts?

I haven't tried to use the dwell meter on it myself yet, but she stays running now so I should be able to play with it some and let yall know how it turns out

 

The stock system would be fine IF all of it's functioning correctly. Don't expect a shop to be able to figure any of the ccc-qjet system out these days.

 

Tune your CCC, it can support what you have going. There are some articles around here from 57kid who really got his running well. I'd research those if I were you.

 

yeah I kinda figured this just wanted to hear it from someone else, thank you.
I just wanted them to make it run and drive and that's what they did, ill see what I can do when I get it back.

 

yes indeed! ive read so much of 5 7's stuff I cant remember half of it LOL
ill be rereading some more when I get a chance

 

picked up a Holley DP and a mech advance distributor for free they both need a rebuild but I couldn't beat the price... the carb is a 650, so im gonna try to get a main body and base from a 750 then rebuild it... thatll be going on next year sometime

ALSO my got my 383 shortblock disassembled so when I get the cash the rotating assembly will be going to the machine shop for a polish and balance

 

heres a video of it running and driving.
shes running really rich on idle, (around 900-1100rpms)
she revs ok for small rolling doses of throttle and when rolling into the throttle from a dead stop she breaks up around 1/3rd throttle @ 45 maybe 50 mph... have not floored it yet.
I think the timing is still a little off as she doesn't want to crank over the first time, hit the key and she goes"woom" and does nothing, then hit the key again and the starter will crank and she starts...
I have the iab and primaries at 3 turns out.
my year old dwell meter took a dump
the tune is def way off, any suggestions?

 

ok so I was messing with it yesterday, finally got the timing to where she would start right up and idle smooth, locked it in... plugged in the distributor... then I start plugging in the sensors on the carb(the mechanic who worked on it had all the carbs sensors unplugged) plugged in the one on the top pass side front of the carb and the motor dies... go to crank it back up, and "CLICK" starter is dead!
im done with this QJET BS im ordering a high TQ min starter from ebay, and im selling the LG4 computer, carb and HEI for $50 plus shipping, comes with new msd distributor cap and new hanger and rods for the carb, I think a K hanger and da rods, something like that ill double check...

what wires do I need to keep to run a non computer controlled carb/ mech advance HEI distributor and keep my factory gauges working???

btw whoever wants to talk me into keeping the qjet can come tune it for me and ill keep it

 

ok I got a bnib starter from a friend hooked it up, she turned over no problem, so that issue is solved, took it for a couple short rides she breaks up if I try to get into the throttle, she only wants to run with the carb unplugged, but I got the primaries set at 2.25 turns out and the iab is around 2.75 it immediately gained ALOT of throttle response and will rev right up in neutral but she doesnt want to rev when shes got a load on it... on the second shakedown run she was overheating, got her back to the house, the coolant fan wasn't coming on(not surprised since I deleted the AC and the heater) so I rigged the fan to come on constant with a couple jumpers to the battery... im going to put a toggle in and just run the fan manually... so I traced the fan wires all the way back, found a relay that joins into a rats nest of wires one of them ending at the electric choke, which isn't being used anyway... SO my question of the day is, can I just delete the rela,y the electric choke and all the connected wiring accept the fan harness and just run a hot on a 20amp toggle with a 20 amp inline fuse to the fan? the relay has a yellow red black and blue wires coming from it... a chevy a tech friend was over to help and he brought this $1000 snap on timing light, told me my timing is at 30* advanced... knowing that it should be somewhere around 6-8 we realized "hey that's the reason shes detonating when u give her throttle" any help or suggestions would be appreciated, AND whats the deal with running the stock dizzy with the carb unplugged??? should I just swap in a vac advance and run the carb unplugged for now? if do that, can I delete all wiring from the ecu... how can I delete the ecu and associated wiring but continue to use my stock gauges??? thanks in advance

 

Swap either the carb or dizzy and you have to swap them both.

You can't run the ccc qjet with it unplugged. It will run too rich.

Check and set the timing with the four wire connector to distributor unplugged. When it's plugged in it will add advance at idle to around 20+.

The ECM harness is separate from the engine harness. Guages run off of the engine harness.

Do not remove the relays for the fan and choke. It's not wise to run the power for the fan solely through a switch. It requires a heavy power feed (20 A). You can, however, trigger the relay through a switch. The relay is controlled by grounding a signal wire.

 

If you're not using your electric choke, how is the choke staying open?

Fix all that.

 

disconnected the choke linkage, its always open. there was a problem with the linkage, it was getting hung up and keeping the primaries closed I decided to ditch it as I wont be driving it in cold weather...
I cut the fan relay from power and ground I now have a complete set of wires that run from the fan to the relay and stop... so you are saying to run a switch between the ground wire and the relay to activate the fan? sorry im really bad at wiring, im trying to learn. my friend told me to just run a 30amp inline fuse and a switch and have it direct to 12v switching the fan off and on manually

 

and btw, if I remove the ecu then just remove the wiring coming from the pass side of the car, I wont have to do any cutting?
im going to give this one last go, this week, then im ditching the quadrajet... makes sense that you say it will run too rich unplugged, that's why the primaries are only 2 turns out lol... but it will not start and run when the carb is plugged in... does the choke have to be plugged in? and what about the fast idle???

 

ok im getting rid of the qjet, and before I get a lot of "no don't do that's" remember ive been chasing demons on this thing for close to 5 years...
I just want to simplify it so problem solving isn't such a big issue and so anyone can tune it.

so I unplugged the ecu harness from the inner pass side fender and I was surprised to find that it has a plug running to the drivers side of the car???
any thoughts on that, I have the complete pinouts with colors and where the wires are going if anyone is interested in figuring that out for me...

what do I need to do so the fuel pump will come on without the ecu or is it on its own circuit already?
ok pocket said I can use the thick tan and black wire for 12v and the pink/black wire on a generic relay to trigger the pump

what wires need to run to the alternator?

what do I need to do to keep function of the factory electronic speedo?

there are 2 wires going to the coil, white and pink... im assuming pink is power and white is tach????

please help soon im hoping to finish most of this wiring up this week ill be working on it for a few hours tomorrow and then during the day every day this week until its finished and its ready for a non comp carb and distributor

how do I wire up a tq converter lockup switch on the cheap without a working aldl?

 

Pull the ECM harness out completely without cutting anything. The distributor wires you need are part of the engine harness and will still be there, along with the wires to the alternator.

You can run the fuel pump through your existing fuel pump relay and oil pressure switch. It won't come on until the OPSU gets pressure after the engine starts, but that shouldn't be a problem.

There's a few threads around on alternate means of locking your torque converter. You'll want to keep your existing brake switch and add a vacuum switch.

I don't know if the speedo VSS in the Pontiac gets its signal from the ECM or vice versa. If the tailshaft plug is not part of the ECM harness, leave it in place and see if it works. You can always swap to an earlier mech speedo from an 85 or earlier if you have to.

Your distributor should have mechanical AND vacuum advance. You'll have to see whether it likes manifold or ported vacuum best. Try it connected to the 'MAP' port first.

 

the ecu has wires connected to other wires connected to the engine harness ? have to cut them



can you elaborate on this a little? im not very good with wiring, pocket told me to use the Tan/Blk wire to power the fuel pump, and the pink/black wire(both coming from c207) to trigger it on a generic relay, is there a better way you could describe in detail please?

no idea what a brake switch or vacuum switch are lol where are they? and how do I "keep" them?

ok the speedo isn't critical for me, but I do want to have one eventually lol

ok ill use the map port behind the carb first, hopefully that will do it, if not I guess ill just try each carb port until one works good? I plan on using an ALL mechanical distributor eventually anyway, I just want this thing stone aged simple.

 

ok that was a lot easier then I thought it was going to be, im so happy with how the engine bay looks now...
once I got the harness unclipped from the inside of the fender I only had to cut the wires going to the tranny and unbolt the grounds, then unbolted the relays from the drivers side mount and she was out... now to figure out how to wire this fuel pump relay... i have the wires that plug into the oil press sensor and go all the way to the fuel pump relay, now what? also do i need this "throttle kicker relay"(it was mounted near the battery on the pass side) still? im guessing no, so i can cut them right at the origin of the wires tape up the open ends and done? (it has lt blue choke heater wire brown and black wire, green wire, and black wire going into it)
also i have the cables to mount the batter in the trunk, anyone know a good route for the pos cable? and where is a good spot for the ground?

 

so no help on any of that yet...
I need to wire up this mystical fuel pump relay, then im g2g, for now, Edelbrock 1407 is in the mail, as well as an MSD knockoff vac/mech advance distributor... be here next week.
I'm hoping to get the wiring done and bolt on and go...
thanks for any help

 

distributor is going in tomorrow, carb will be here Tuesday... still need to know how to wire up this fuel pump relay .

 

distributor is installed pink and white wires are connected... according to tracking the carb should be here today

help with this fuel pump relay please, there's tan/white, orange, pink/white and black/white wires coming from the relay and making their way into the c207 connector(towards instrument panel side of cockpit from ecm) and I believe the black/white also plugs into the ecm connector

and for the vss, can I just cut the wire before the ecm and connect it after the ecm to the speedo? if so, what wire is the vss wire??? lol im gonna go find a schematic and see if I can pick it out

 

ttt
I still need help with the relay I have thinned the harness and ID'd all the necessary wires (vss, tcc, p/n, ign) etc going into the c202 harness plug at the pass side of the cockpit.

 

not that anyone cares or is paying attention, but shes cranking and getting fuel, just plugged the ip harness plug back in after seeing that the fuel pump relay circuit had nothing to do with the ecm... so cut out ecm and plugged back in... done easy peasy... NOW have to play around with the timing a little when I get a minute, BUT how do I get the speedo to work?

 

Should be cable driven speedo right? As long as the cable isn't broken and the drive gears for it aren't broken, it should work fine. If it's not working I'd check the cable first.

 

Electric speedo 86 and up for firebirds. You may have to swap in an earlier mech unit.

 

Naf, I was gonna do that swap...not as easy as I thought. The pinouts on the connectors behind the gauges were different. 84 cluster I thought about putting in, also had two gauges switched, and it wasn't an easy change. that would be the case for the 82-84 clusters, can't say for the 85 but kind of limiting if only 85 clusters will work due to mechanical speedo. Talk about a search.

Flippindabird, I believe I showed you the pics as to what was different.

Sounds to me like the VSS isn't plugged in, if the connectors are broken/missing, I'd replace them.

 

I found post where they said you can "splice the vss wire from the trans into the buffer and send a ground where the ecm was plugged in and the speedo will work... any thoughts?
im guessing the buffer is the yellow plastic box that was mounted on the back of the pass side dash