FlippindaBird

iTrader: (10)

8/27/10
Ive decided to just make this my build thread so i can keep all my Q&A in 1 spot. Little bit of backround: ive owned this car about 4 years now and drove it for about 1/2 a year, up where i live you need 4 wheel drive at least 6 months out of the year and its just not practical to drive a rear wheel drive V8 all the time... my father purchased this car new in 1987 he ordered it, "the cheapest american rear wheel drive V8 automatic with power windows and ac"(-his words), he could get in 87, he was not privy to mustangs(thank you god). A few years ago my father wanted room to add to his collection of 70s SS's so now its mine and someday it will be my sons...
Baseline
Stock 1987 Firebird w/120k miles
Stock LG4 5.0L 9.3:1 compression, .380/.410" cam
Stock 58cc iron heads w/ 1.84& 1.5 valves
750cfm computer controlled QuadraJet carb= 170hp (factory rating)
Stock TH700r4, Drum Brake 2.73 geared peg leg rear
only mods so far are;
-4th gen 16" T/A rims and 245/50/16 NITTOs (upgrade from stock 15" with 215/65/15 Coopers)
-catalytic converter delete (got clogged, car wouldnt run, cut it off )
-Hooker 2055Rs into a SLP LMII for 4th gens
-Edelbrock Pro Flo 1000 air cleaner (doesnt get any cold air, but the single snorkel stock air cleaner was definitely hindering breathing, and i got this for free from a friend at work) getting junked
-back seats, spare tire & jack, ac, air, egr, cruise control, carpets, center console and headliner delete (probably lost over 100lbs, now if I can do the same )

i started the improvements last year with the new rims and tires all new brakes and removing the old and ratty headliner, carpet center console and such, the car needs some body work but i will get to that after the driveline and interior are done. see some pics in my profile

plans/goals:
This car is to be an occasional weekend car for me (only in the summer)and i want to drag race it and take it to some autocrossing. Other then that she will be parked in the driveway under the cover (keeps her mean ). It has to be safe, fun and reliable because i want to be able to get in it and drive anywhere, the dragstrip is an hour away. Mid to low 13s is the goal for 1/4 mile performance this year, and 12s next year. I will be upgrading the suspension and installing LS1 brakes all around, but for this year its just bare bones lets get it running and see what it can do.
progress:
i removed and sold the 305 that came with it, i purchased a 350 from a 99 suburban, have a 3.23 4th gen posi to replace the stock 2.73 pegleg (3.73s coming) i have a transgo shiftkit for the 700r4 and a 2500 stall converter on the way. now im waiting to get the engine together and back in the car. Basically thats the jist... thanks for everyones help in getting this thing out of my driveway and onto the track... also if anyone is in my area (zip 18428), i would welcome your help, i have few friends (like 1 that has any automotive skill at all) around here because i just moved here a couple years ago you will be compensated with beer and food pm me

7/23/10
i can get a good deal on a vortec 5.7L long block(with performer RPM intake), and i want to put it in my 87 firebird using the stock carb and distributor(computer controlled) i also found a great deal on a zz4 cam, i just need to know what if anything i have to do to the vortec heads (besides updating the valvesprings already knew that)so i can use the zz4 cam? is there something about the valve guides?? i thought i found something about it a while back but now that im specifically searching i cant find it. thanks for your help

8/3/11
over a year and finally made some REAL progress... the engine is in but the plans changed on the fly as documented in the following posts of this thread... the '02 SS 3.42 rear, solid LCAs with adj brackets and aluminum driveshaft are installed, transgo shiftkit is installed in the trans as well as a 2600stall converter(waiting on a corevette servo)... only thing i needed to do the rear swap was a set of adapters that allowed me to plug the 4thgen lines into the 3gen T like 12$... everything is all buttoned up, just need a couple of plugs that broke on the harness and a way to mount the powersteering pump and she will be ROLLIN! the new engine combo is a 5.7L Vortec Long block, guides are cut and springs are good to .600" lift, 1.5 & 1.6 PRW stainless roller tip rockers, LT4 Hot cam, Performer RPM intake, stock E4ME carb, stock distributor and computer, Hooker 2055Rs into the SLP LMII, i have the Holley FPR plumbed into the carb using the stock intank fuel pump(until i see if it has enough pressure or not) if it doesnt ill replace it with the intank pump GM sold with the H.O. 350 kit (85$ shipped) ive deleted ALL HVAC, EGR & AIR anything that doesnt need to be there to drive the car is gone to reduce weight no hood hinges no windsheild wipers or squirter... no rear or pass seat no center console no stereo/speakers no plastic interior peices... i want to convert it to manual windows and locks and the rear hatch motor grenaded last year so i need to fix that..., have to drill the holes for the hood pins for the FG cowl induction hood, and itll be topped off with a K&N extreme airfilter... damit typing this makes me ACHE to drive her, hoping for 12.9 or better and i now have a 383 shortblock sitting in my garage

Atilla the Fun

First, you'll need a pair of AH rods and a G hanger for the carb.
Second, There's no hope of getting that cam to work with those heads unless you remove the heads.
Once they're off, then you can use this tool: http://www.competitionproducts.com/S...ductinfo/4718/ with this tool: http://www.competitionproducts.com/V...ductinfo/4732/
on the guides. Then you can use a 5/8" drill bit to shorten the guides. You'll need to drill 1/8" off each and every guide. Then use a file on any sharp edges.
Now the heads can accomodate the lift.
The stock springs won't take the lift, so you have to change them. But since you just used the 4718 tool, you can now use a set of COMP 982-16 springs, inverted, with the L31 retainers and locks.
Since the heads have to come apart anyway, you may as well order a set of these valves: http://www.competitionproducts.com/S...ductinfo/8430/
then have a local machine shop put a small 30-degree back cut on each and every one of them.
Now you can get to assembly, so get a pair of FelPro 1094 head gaskets, and a Cloyes 9-1145 timing set.

Atilla the Fun

oops, forgot to specify seals to match the machined guides. These are good for the intake valves: http://www.competitionproducts.com/P...uctinfo/S5325/

FlippindaBird

iTrader: (10)

jesus! maybe ill just leave the stock cam in, im trying to just get it going for this year and get it done right when the weather gets bad i just really wanna drive my car and i dont wanna spend a fortune to do it now, thanks though atilla, but i guess itll just have to be slow this year... btw how much horsepower will the vortec longblock with a rpm intake and the Qjet on top make?? hooker 2055Rs and SLP loudmouth for 4thgens

Atilla the Fun

Aluminum heads are light, but Vortec heads make more power. And since slow is your issue, choose the Vortecs. I doubt the aluminum heads will take the lift without machining, so you're stuck with running your previous cam. And even with that cam, the Vortecs will outperform the aluminum. Just stick to stock rockers.

FlippindaBird

iTrader: (10)

so i should throw a stock vortec longblock (w/ stock cam) iron l98s wont handle the bigger cam either?? i had the stock vortec longblock before (ran real lean w/ stock carb)but my father needed it so i put the 305 back in anyway... the vortec long block is the cheap option but there is a member who has a low mileage tpi 350 long block for sale so if the zz4 cam would work with that itd be great, if it wont work with none of them, then i guess ill go with the vortec(its also a 4bolt so next year it will make the strongest 383) i was hoping to be in the 13s with 350 LB this year

Atilla the Fun

None of the pure-stock, unmodified heads will take the 0.510" exhaust lift of the ZZ4 cam. Since that is the case, choose the Vortec 350, save your aluminum heads, and sell anything else you can towards an LT1 cam. If you install the 12551142 cam into the Vortec 350 should get you a 13.999 or better, with NO machining, and NO clearance issues.
get the Vortec 350 in, then we'll discuss it running lean.

FlippindaBird

iTrader: (10)

lol i just sold a 93 fbody LT1 cam cause you told me it was no good lol but 13.9 will work for this year, gonna go call the guy now

FlippindaBird

iTrader: (10)

the vortec heads will work with the almost 460 lift of the LT1 cam? what does your estimation dyno say it should run in the 1/4 with the lt1 cam instead of the stocker?? i sold mine at a profit so if i can find one cheap enough ill do it if its gonna make a considerable difference (ie just about guarantee 13s) 13.9s with the traction my car will have is a high mph 14.0 lol

FlippindaBird

iTrader: (10)

ok just talked to the guy about the vortec long block its a 4 bolt with 87k, found a performer RPM intake for 75(its for a squarebore carb though, and no egr provision) im hoping to skate through the visual inspection maybe pay the guy 50$ to pass me... really wanted to keep the egr though... still AH rods and G hanger for the LT1 cam'd vortec block with a rpm intake?? anyone know who sells those rods and hangers the cheapets?? mr gasket has a spacer adapter for spreadbore carb to squarebore intake, will that hurt the performance a whole lot?? should i try to find a spreadbore vortec intake?? when the other vortec engine was in the car my uncle rigged it up to run the egr with a vortec performer intake but hes no longer with us... so the easiest thing for me to do is delete it and hope to pass the visual inspection... so to recap: 4 bolt vortec long block, LT1 cam, performer rpm intake, stock cc Qjet with ah rods and G hangers, stock distributor, hooker 2055rs into a hollow 3" cat to a SLP Loudmouth for 4thgens, 2000 stall converter, transgo shiftkit, 3.23 posi rear, crappy 245/55/16" nittos... what should it run???

Atilla the Fun

The '93 cam is 0.460", it might not clear, but it might. The cam I just gave the part number for is only 446/450, so it's a safer bet. Still, it would've been cheaper to make your old LT1 cam work, so I apologize.

Atilla the Fun

I have no estimate for the L31 cam, high 13s with an LT1 cam is possible. Sorry for the confusion. I just edited post 7 to clarify.

Atilla the Fun

No, AH rods and G hanger for ZZ4 cam.
I have a new GMPP Vortec EGR intake that some guy drilled for other heads. A bit of JB Weld would fix that. It does accept the Q-Jet with no adapting. PM me if you want to buy it.
I still think you could do 13.8s with decent air and track conditions. With 3.73s, 2400 stall and drag radials, a high 12 could happen in cold air.

FlippindaBird

iTrader: (10)

no apology needed i made a small profit, (got the 93 cam specifically for the 460 lift, pd 30 sold for 55) ill do the 3.73s soon as the engine is running and drag radials are last on the list for this year, but i dont think ill be doing a bigger stall till next year, i just got this one it was 60$ lol you say a 13.8, ill settle for that, as long as im solidly in the 13s but the lt1 cam will only give me 1 tenth??

Atilla the Fun

Again, I never said a 13.999 with the L31 cam. The L31 cam is 191/196 duration at 0.050", with 414/428 lift, on a 111 sep. The 12551142 cam is at least a 201/208, with 446/450 on a 114 sep. I edited post 7 to clarify.
Anyway, you're well on your way to a strong performer for cheap.

FlippindaBird

iTrader: (10)

thanks Atilla thats exactly what im shooting for!
im def getting the LT1 cam cause i dont wanna run 14s, could have done that with a 305 lol should have all the main parts within 3 weeks

ok so now i have another dilema, the LT1 cam has no eccentric for a mech fuel pump i have a holley adjustable fuel pressure regulator, im told (by SMI) that a Qjet requires 5.5psi constant, the afpr will go to 7 so im good there, but will the stock lg4 in tank pump give the regulator enough fuel??? if not i can get a 255lph for $50 shipped, but i dont wanna spend the 50 yet if i dont need it right away

FlippindaBird

iTrader: (10)

ok 1 more Q will springs from GMs 350 H.O. be ok with the LT1 cam? they are good to 475 lift supposedly, the 350 H.O. cam is 430/460 so its sort of similar to the LT1 but its a flat tappet these are the cheapest springs i can find i dont wanna spend an arm and a leg because i WILL have a 383 next year and ill need a custom cam and springs to match... i already have new retainers and locks to fit so it will be 38 plus shipping from jim pace if anyone knows any place cheaper please let me know, i should start a thread "cheapest places to buy stuff" for ppl like me who have to stretch every penny

Atilla the Fun

Are they cheaper than these: http://www.competitionproducts.com/H...uctinfo/98111/ ? Even if so, how much pressure do they give at 1.700"?

FlippindaBird

iTrader: (10)

DAMN! now thats a deal a set of valve springs that work for 26$ plus shipping im in! im not sure of the pressure right this second but it doesnt matter to me anymore if those will work fine

Atilla the Fun

Would I suggest them unless I KNEW they'd work just fine? I have a good name / reputation to protect.

FlippindaBird

iTrader: (10)

i wasnt questioning i was saying that i will get them lol
but when i drop a valve because of those springs im gonna blame YOU!
j/k thanks for your help Attila you are an invaluable resource in a world of misinformation... funny thing, ive been reading CHP since i was like 14 years old and i have a magazine from a few years back(i keep them all for archive) when they took a goodwrench 350 and put L98 heads on it(supposedly stock) and NEVER mentioned having to do anything other then bolt them on with a comp 268 cam thats why i was suprised when i read that you had to cut the guides to work with the higher lift, evidently they left that out to make it look cheaper on paper, im gonna write to them about this, my letter probably wont get published though, ill tell them that if it werent for sites like thirdgen and you waited around for them to answer your questions ppl like me would never even finish a car

Atilla the Fun

Hold it. Un-modified aluminum L98 heads generally won't take the 0.510" exhaust lift of the ZZ4 cam, but if they ordered new ZZ4 heads, then they would. Also, the XE268H10 only makes o.480" lift, so that should work with any stock L98 heads. The devil really is in the details. The XE276HR10 will work with ZZ4 heads, but not un-modified L98 heads.
However, all this aside, they might have honestly forgotten to mention a set of "plus fifty" locks, which are a wonderful cheat when they work, and are about $15/set. Sometimes they can't be used with stock rockers, or else the rockers interfere with the retainers.
If I was sure they'd work for you, I'd've suggested them. But I honestly believe I've given you sound info in every post.

FlippindaBird

iTrader: (10)

hey, i believe you too, and the zz4 head thing was what i also thought, so when i read back for like the 50somethinth time it said "l98 corvette heads" i was thinking about scanning and sending it to you, i have alot of articles that o could scan and upload to this forum i just dont because of the time consumption, ive been collecting chp and gm high tech(since they were just high tech) for a long time some have been thrown away but i have a closet full... but anyway i got a pic of the valves i was gonna use that you said you wanted to see if they were good or not so here they are my camera sucks so i did the best i could

Atilla the Fun

Your valves are great, just get them back-cut. The Zz4 heads are the same basic casting as the aluminum L98 heads, but after '91, the machining changed. The ZZ3 and ZZ4 are identical as far as heads and cams. So the ZZ3 heads needed to accept more lift than the '91 'vette L98.
If you order 12556463 today, you receive ZZ4 heads that will readily take the ZZ4 cam. But they flow the exact same as the '87 'vette heads, assuming identical valves. That should clear up any remaining confusion. Not just the OP of this thread, but everyone else reading it, also.

FlippindaBird

iTrader: (10)

ok so 30 degree back cut right ?...
thanks for clearing that up, why cant they just tell you that in the description in the catalogs?? youd think chp would have said these are good to such and such lift but if you go the cheap route and use old vette heads then youll need this done... kind of misleading

naf

iTrader: (7)

Q, and I hope it's not too off-topic, but the cutting tool identified above: Can I expect them to last through more than one set of heads? The cost is near the break even point for having a local shop do it for me, but the second set would be firtually free...

thanks.

Atilla the Fun

Yes, the tool will last many heads, if you don't damage it somehow ( dropping it on the floor ) .

FlippindaBird

iTrader: (10)

no your on topic just fine, would you use that with a die grinder?? you have to completely disassemble the heads first then do the procedure. how steady of a hand would i have to have?? is there anywhere to get pictures?? i for one have no idea what to do with them... after using those tools the heads can just be reassembled?? i just dont wanna spend a whole heck of alot putting heads together when if i sell both sets of heads and add a few hundred bucks i can get a set of fully assembled heads that already flow well... but yeah could you explain a little further on what those tools do, its kind of intimidating to me and i doubt ill do it but i still would like to know what exactly has to be done maybe ill pick up a junk set of heads and practice, if they can be used more then once that is

Atilla the Fun

Spring seat cutters and such are simply chucked into a variable-speed electric hand-drill.

FlippindaBird

iTrader: (10)

mines a 2 speed milwaulkee 1/2 and the way it acts i think the 2 has a bad clutch or something cause it has more power in 1... so i would just use this on the valve guides then?? also have a die grinder and i can probably get an air drill they dont cost that much at harbor freight

FlippindaBird

iTrader: (10)

got the engine on the stand in my shed today, the head casting number is 064 ???
the springs actually look to be aftermarket to me and the PO said it was rebuilt and he wasnt sure what was done to it, what color are stock vortec springs? these look new and are silver, turns over fine, just a little rusty but alot better then my 90 lol gonna clean with the drill and some wire brushes tomorrow ill post some pics, whats the number on a vortec cam?? i wanna check it when i pull it to be sure its a vortec and not anything aftermarket, cause maybe if its decent ill just leave it if theres no numbers is there a way to measure lobes to see if they are the right size?? the freeze plugs look pretty recent as well as the lifter valley being very clean oil looks good too only problem i have is the rusting around the spark plug holes, gonna use a vacuum and the wire brushes and see what i can do

FlippindaBird

iTrader: (10)

does anyone know if i can use the LG4 in tank pump with a fpr ? the original setup had a mech pump on the block but im not gonna have one, will the in tank pump flow enough fuel to keep the carb supplied with 5.5psi?

Atilla the Fun

Probably the 305 Vortec heads. There are 2 versions of them. One is virtually identical to older 081s, the other is virtually identical to the '88-'95 swirl-port 305 heads. Either way, pull them off the block. If it is a 350 with the Vortec 305 heads, then use your aluminum L98 heads. If it's a complete Vortec 305, then go get your money back.

FlippindaBird

iTrader: (10)

it says 5.7 on the block im gonna double check the casting number what should the casting number be?

FlippindaBird

iTrader: (10)

yeah i made a mistake 12558062 thats the complete casting number... yesterday i just looked at the size of the intake ports to determine if it was a 350 i thought they looked too big to be a 305 lol but i gave the "062" from memory... my memory is shot lol

Atilla the Fun

Ok, it is a 350. But are the heads 062 or 064? You typed 064 first, while the good heads are 062 or 906. And at the face for the intake manifold gasket, the Vortec 5000 heads, even the swirl-ports, look identical to the Vortec 5700 heads.

FlippindaBird

iTrader: (10)

its 062 im ordering the springs and compressor tool right now and im gonna paypal for the cam tonight too it was raining like a sonofagun today so i didnt feel like making the trek to the backyard this morning and then i had aparty to attend this afternoon so im behind but i have all day mon and tues off

naf

iTrader: (7)

Your in-tank pump for the 87 LG4 will probably not be able to keep up. It's intended as a helper pump to prevent vapor lock between the tank and the mech pump on the block. I made an attempt to measure pressure for mine once and got, maybe, 2 PSI. You may consider installing a Holley type external pump back near the tank or replacing the in-tank with a more robust model. Don't disconnect the in-tank pump, though. It's reported to be a restriction when disconnected and left in place.

FlippindaBird

iTrader: (10)

thanks daf theres another 50$ off the budget for a fuel pump lol ill have to swap the pump when i drop the old exhaust, love your sig btw

Atilla the Fun

Naf is mistaken. It's the exact same pump used for the '88 LO3, it puts out 16 psi when functioning correctly. The stock on-block mechanical pump had a return port for excess fuel, and acted as a cheap pressure regulator, because Q-Jets like 3.5 psi.
It's adequate for 300 horses, at least.

FlippindaBird

iTrader: (10)

lol ok then im good! mine was def running fine when i pulled the 305 out 16psi reg to 4.5 isnt that big of a deal right? smi told me 5.5 you says 3.5 i figure ill go in the midlle and do 4.5 and back it down/jack it up, and see if the car responds at the track, in fact i think my reg starts at 4 goes to 9
and my estimation for this is approx 325 hp @ crank with the engine healthy based on what ive seen other similar engines rated at would that be a good guess?

Atilla the Fun

close enough. Nothing seems unsafe, so give it your best shot, and go shred the treads.

naf

iTrader: (7)

You'd best double check the pressure and flow you get on the in tank. I'm seeing different part numbers on a couple sites for the 87 VIN H and the 88 TBI ...although that's not always definitive. AND the one I checked could have been weak, as could yours.

FlippindaBird

iTrader: (10)

well if i cant get 4psi at the regulator then ill know its not good enough right?? i thought the same thing naf but im gonna hook it up and see, a guy just told me he did the same thing with a 84 z28 he swapped a 350 into and it ran fine he just had to swap out the rods and hangers which i kind of figured too... if i cant "shred the treads" with the stock suspension and the crappy 245/55/16 nittos i got then im gonna junk this engine, even the 305 would leave a single line lol the best tuning is done at the track correct?

rustrider73

flipdabird where are you gettin that 255 fuel pump from for $50.00
email me I'm not on here much
thanks
I'm building a vortec350 w/zz4 cam but will be keeping the TBI on a rpm airgap w/adapter plate

FlippindaBird

iTrader: (10)

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/255-L...Q5fAccessories

i know most ppl will say "that thing is junk" "its from china" but my cousin has a 406 in an s10 he drag races with just about every weekend runs 11.4 had it for 2 years and he hasnt had a problem with the pump
its half price, if the american pump was like 1/3 more it would be worth it but for 1/2 price if it braaks buy a new one and you paid as much as buying 1 good 1, if it works then you saved 50$... just my

rustrider73

Thanks flip LOL I need to start shopping on ebay.
have you ever used one of those pumps from that guy?

Atilla good info thanks and keep posting your builds I'm sure they help alot of members

FlippindaBird

iTrader: (10)

edited that post for ya even if you dont go with that one just look for the walboro pumps on ebay they are around 100 shipped, im trying to go cheaper then that though as my app should not have a high fuel demand

FlippindaBird

iTrader: (10)

just did some beautification and inspection heres a couple pics

FlippindaBird

iTrader: (10)

got one complete side ready for paint, the valve train looks fine she turns over easily by hand and you can hear/feel the compression, only thing i see that is a possible problem is that the spark plug hole threads are rusty and theres some cobwebs in the exhaust ports, other then that it looked great