I am going to present just two options for the 1988 Camaro which presently is a 305 auto car.
Its going to be my first big project but I will have help of local shop for guidance and helpful hands.
This car has been in the family over 25 years and now I'm so happy to call her mine.
Main concern is cost and longevity. I plan to keep this car forever.



Option 1 : Junkyard 5.3 iron block rebuilt with hotter cam ,arp hardware, ported stock lm7 heads, modest 430HP build, stock efi with 4L60 that is pulled from same donor vehicle.

Option 2: Mail order short block (350) gen1 built similarly but with aftermarket aluminum heads, cam, 650dp with crank HP around 400hp with 700r4 or TH350

Which build would be more cost effective to swap into the1988 Camaro?
I know similar questions have been asked to death about this but I've yet to find one reflecting these two options. Any help is always appreciated.

 

Pretty much everything you have now goes in the trash with the LS swap. A Gen1 sbc can use all the accessories and ancillaries of your existing sbc. Easy math.

 

Same as Drew said. Staying Gen 1 means you continue to us all your existing parts. So its usually cheaper.

However, if you cut back on power goals, you can go Gen 3+ and then later the upgrades to significantly more power are much cheaper.

It costs more money to get a Gen 1 to make the same power as a Gen 3 and later. The inherent advantages in the head, valve train, and intake design mean Gen3 makes more power more efficiently.

So the questions of cost in the short term is that the Gen 1 is cheaper. But as you start wanting more power, the Gen 3 becomes the cheaper option with a higher initial buy in.

 

Found this right down the road for 900. What do you think?Motor was completely resealed all new gaskets , doesn’t leak a drop
Runs perfect
.390/.410 cam
New elderbrok carb
high rise intake
High rise valve covers
Comes with a set of hooker headers
New fuel pump
Hei distributor
New water pump
Aftermarket aluminum pullys

 

What is it ?

 

Option 2,upgraded SBC far easier and "cooler" than a "trendy"LS swap...swap to upgraded sbc can be done in a weekend with no special parts needed.
The engine in the picture looks like it is probably original to the ~mid-80s squarebody truck it is in: 207 350 block,76cc '624 heads,might be 4 bolt main.not really what you want to upgrade an '88rs with,and about $400 overpriced.
Not suggesting you should do this,but this is what I would do if a stock 305 '88 RS ended up in my driveway: 88-91 'vette 350-swap pan and pickup to f-bod,modify/upgrade the TBI as needed,upgrade exhaust.shift kit original t700,3.42 posi. Totally era correct ,but big,big upgrade over stock and easy turn key reliability

 

All that high rise **** ain't gonna fit under your hood.

 

Also found a really nice (convertible :-/) 2000 Z28 Ls1/automatic car with 147k for 2,700 closeby 1 owner car!

I found a used pullout LM7 with 4L60E too for $650 with 62k miles. That way I'll have Gen3 power for now and a trans that can handle it.Later on I can worry about cam and heads on the first rebuild. For now 330HP would be better than my 190HP at best the 88 has now.



I havent pulled the trigger on the 5.3 yet, because I am concerned about cost to swap from truck parts (I have read the helpful guide on this and have the list of parts)

But already have elminated the T56 from my wishlist has lowered my cost some. If my mom lets me (lends me) to buy that 2000 Z28 thats down the road for $2,700 I could cruise around in the Fourth Gen until I have the money to do the swap right.
But thats a longshot. Im just hoping for the 5.3 or the 2000 Z28 right now. Either would be a godsend. especially that 1 owner LS1 2000 Z28 camaro I found but its a convertible...Still @ 147k miles, southern 1 owner car it's worth the $2,700 Right?

 

If the best ad copy he can come up with for it is the 929 cam (the stock .390"/.410" 194°/204° POS used in basically everything from later 283s on up through 70s smogger 350s) and "high rise valve covers" and a set of headers that are about 99.99999% certain WON'T fit your car and a "new fuel pump" that you can buy at AZ for about $15, there's probably nothing else INSIDE it worthy of mention either. All in all it looks like yerbasic 70s smogger crap with 165 HP that's possibly been downgraded by putting in pistons that have even more deck clearance than stock, meaning its compression ratio is now likely 7.x:1.

Pass on this one too.

The LM7 pullout is about the right price. Make sure the 60E is 2WD, otherwise you'll have to do a bunch of fiddling to change it from 4WD to 2WD. It'll already take a slight amount of work to get it to mount in the car; not a whole lot or anything like that, but just something to be aware of.

Don't buy some other car "until you have the money to do the swap right". It doesn't work that way. EVERY DIME you spend on some other car, puts you ONE DIME FARTHER from a swap. Listen to the voice of experience: what will happen instead is, your 88 will become a weed-overgrown lawn ornament. You're not the first, and won't be the last, to make that mistake of youth and inexperience.

Either sell the car you have and buy the 00, or prepare for a swap, for which a MUCH better path than some crappy hilljack smogger 350 (maybe 305? can't tell from the pic) might be to buy the pullout, or another like it after you save up more $$$ to complete the project. NOT both.

 

I'm having one of those groggy gloomy days when I didn't sleep well, or slept too much, and haven't had enough caffeine... You could probably make a convincing argument to me that white is black and black is white, and there's still no way I'd pay someone for a farm truck engine.

Just no. No to that engine. No to borrowing money for a toy. No to all these threads. I'm going to say this once... Decide what you want to have when you're finished! Then make yourself a PLAN of how you want to get there. Then go about your plan one step at a time. Otherwise, you're going to end up with a great big pile of garbage and an empty bank account.

If you want an LS1, plan for an LS1. If you just want a V8 and easy, plan for a Gen 1 V8. If you just want to jack up your post count, jump over to the appearance or body forums and give everyone a pat on the back. A few dozen "that's so cool!" posts are a lot less annoying than a dozen "what about this junkyard engine from another disreputable seller on Craigslist?" threads. Or at least put them in ONE thread so we can ignore them all in one place. Pretty please, with sugar on top.

 

Understood. In the meantime I'm going to read through the threads that have already been written and answered. And I'm going to cool it with the Craigslist browsing. I'm all over the place and surely don't want to ruin my reputation when i really need you all!

 

I'm all excited and running in circles. In some reality I saw buying the 2000 putting me ahead on the swap but I am wrong again. I understand and accept your guidance in this. Thanks so much.

 

It would put you ahead if you were going to strip it for parts to make your LS swap happen. Otherwise, yeah, most people when they get to roosters, find there is only room for one rooster in the wallet.

I've mostly avoided that with my Focus RS and GTA.

However, I've owned the GTA for almost 20 years now and the far is pretty much stable in terms of mods. It runs, it drives, its got some faults.

 

just obtain a suitable upgrade SBC 350 and install it-very easy,especially if you set HP goal at a real 280-300 HP.

 

Is it downright stupid to put a 150k mile ls1 in without rebuilding first?

 

Depends. If you are doing the work rather than paying someone else to do it (in case the engine turns out to be a turd and has to come right back out), it might be OK. Plenty of guys on this site have dropped-in high-mileage boneyard LS motors (that have seen proper maintenance during their lifetime) with a cam swap and had good results.

Personally, I'd never go such a route; I'd start with either an empty block or a new short block and all-new components.

One more word of advice, stay away from craigslist used engines. Unless you know exactly what you're buying there, chances are excellent that you're gonna get scalped.

 

I’d encourage you to set a goal and go for it. As mentioned if you want a v8 then a sbc will get you there the quickest. I debated this for months before settling on an LS swap. I wanted something a bit more modern and reliable. And it’s easy to make bigger power. Sounds like you just need to get your priorities straight and then come up with a plan. If you’re interested in an LS swap this vide (and his channel) are a great resource:


I certainly wouldn’t shy away from a junkyard engine either. You can always freshen it up some before putting it in and then rebuild down the road after you save more money up.

 

If this is your 1st big project then you have to budget for all of the tools you don't have and will need as well as small parts/stuff that will break along the way. The 350/383 is the easy way to go to get your feet wet. I would swap to a better cam and find some used aluminum heads to make more power, 400-450 hp on a sbc won't take too much, but you will have to budget for trans upgrades and maybe rear end also. While the motor is out change the motor mounts, suspension bushings, etc. This hobby ain't cheap even if you aren't doing an LS swap.

 

Slow learner, aren'tcha?

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/engi...1-near-my.html

Trouble with any used engine, whether it's from a junkyard or from a Craigslist seller, or Uncle Joe, is that it's an engine with an unknown history. You're trusting random people to be honest with you. People aren't honest. On top of that, people are farking dumb. DUMBBBBBBBBBBBB. They might THINK that engine they're selling you is solid gold, and after you spend a few weeks or months or a year screwing with it, and it spins a bearing, there you'll sit with an engine that needs a $2000 rebuild that you already paid $700 for. Don't Do It. Don't throw good money away on a maybe.

So that's out of the way, let me cover the next query to cross your mind... "Well what if I get an engine and rebuild it first?" I'm going to assume you aren't an engine builder by trade. You don't have a hot tank, mills, lathes, etc aka a machine shop. That means you're back to hiring someone with a machine shop to do the work for you. Remember what I said about people being intentionally dishonest, and other people being big fat stupid dummies? It applies to people that run machine shops too. Sorry Machine Shop operator guys, but there are more of you that don't know **** than vice versa. So you take your garbage to a machine shop, hand them a blank check, and $2,000 and anywhere from 45 days to 6 months or more later you get your engine back. It's only as good as the core, which can vary, and the machine shop with their equipment and skilled tradesman. Maybe it's good, maybe it's bad, if it blows up a week later, there's probably not a warranty or guarantee.

So where does that leave us? Personally, put in some overtime. Save money. Ramen Noodles. Skip the six pack, put that cash in the engine fund. When you've got about $1,000 more than you think you'll need, go buy a crate engine. In 3 days the UPS or other delivery guy drops a shiny new engine with a warranty at the end of your driveway. It's built by people that build engines every day for GM, instead of the hillbillies that like to roll around in the mud on Friday/Saturday nights. Your chances of encountering a problem like the machine shop losing your crankshaft, or machining your crank to the wrong size are greatly reduced. If something does go wrong, you have options.

I'm done beating my head against the wall trying to explain the things you learn from experience. If you want to buy some crapola off craigslist based on a handshake and a tall tale, you'll gain the experience the hard way. If you're lucky, you'll come out of it without losing all the enthusiasm you have for working on the car. But you might spend a few grand and end up selling the car because it's still not 'right'.

Good luck.

 

If it's your first real excursion into mechanical projects then I think your best bet is to pull a 5.3 from a wrecked or rusted out truck. Wrecked/rusted means there is a high chance that the engine ran fine. The LS engines can take a lot of miles. Lots of trucks out there with 200K miles on the clock still running fine so I wouldn't care if an engine had 120K on it. Check out sloppy mechanics and the driveway engineer, those guys go over lots of average guy, real-world applicable LS stuff.
Building a SBC, unless it's for period correctness of you already have good sbc parts, is a waste of money. I have many thousands in my current 383 to make 400 HP at the wheels and a 5.3 can make that with the right factory heads and a cam swap. An intake swap alone (fuel injection intake) can cost as much as a used LS engine.

So go to a junk yard, (I guarantee there are multiple yards within a few hours drive that have numerous 5.3 trucks with engine) and pull the engine, tranny and all accessories and wiring. Take it home and start learning how to rewire it and the Camaro and how to plumb the fuel system.

 

Just a guess, but I'd say that ship has already sailed.

 

Quick question. Let's say I get the 2000 z28 that has the ls1 for 2700 dollars. Let's say it needs a rebuild before putting in the 3rd gen. What kind of numbers cashwise would I be looking at to freshen up the ls1 for peice of mind before installing?

 

I wouldn't be surprised if a LS1 rebuild is more expensive than a new block. It costs quite a bit for machine work. And I'm not sure it's wise to reuse the cast pistons. The engine can be honed 0.010 over to freshen up the cylinder wall but that's it. Bottom line is the LS1 block isn't very "rebuild friendly". The iron block truck engines are rebuild friendly though, with lots of meat on the cylinder wall.

Seems like you guys are ripping on this guy for sport. All he's doing is scheming and dreaming and that in and of itself is half the fun of a project car.

 

The F-body for $2700 might be worth it, but it will take a while to recoup the costs of buying it just for the engine. Parting it out will take some time since you'd be taking the good parts from the car. And what you would be left will won't be worth much. So you'd better be sure that $2700 is worth the price of investment.

You'd be taking the PCM, Harness, Engine + accessories, Transmission, driveshaft, Axle + disc brakes.

You'd be paying for:
Engine mounts.
Exhaust shop to connect LS exhaust to your cat-back.
PCM Programming.
Power steering lines.
Fuel lines.

You'd have to learn how to merge the two harnesses. Honestly there is a TON you can take from the Camaro. Almost everything in the engine bay, and everything in the interior can be made to work. If someone was selling a running/complete LS1 engine for $700 I'd jump on it in a heart beat, regardless of miles. JY LS1s go for more than $1000 all th time.

A full drivetrain swap is NOT for the faint of heart. If you don't have a garage where you can work on the car and leave it apart for several weeks while you learn yourself its going to be a problem.

 

Its not. New bare LS1 blocks are about $2000. Then you have to add the rotating assembly. LS1 is the same.

Short-blocks are in the $3500-$4000 area.

You could freshen up a high mile LS1 that was running prior for cheaper than a new block. And then you'd have all of the accessories, heads, intake...etc.....

 

Has anyone ever done an LS swap into a thirdgen cheaply? It used to be a 5.3L pullout could be had for a few hundred dollars, but that ship has sailed around here. The prices skyrocketed when every dipshit with a beater bought them all with dreams or intention to resell for profit. What does it cost to buy the parts to run an LS on a carb? Let's keep in mind the LS requires crossmember mods, motor mounts, seems like most people aren't using the stock trans behind their LS swaps, exhaust, all the accessories since none of the thirdgen accessories will bolt up to the LS engine. Then there's rewiring the engine harness, and all those accessories.

Meanwhile, a 350 bolts right in, with the existing trans, existing exhaust, exisiting accessories, etc. Granted getting to 400hp is going to change some of that stuff, but it's not absolutely critically necessary from the first start. A 4bbl carb and vacuum advance HEI is a choke wire and a power/tach wires.

Now granted I haven't gotten a degree in LS swaps. Personally I don't find them terribly interesting, thus my eyes glaze over and I lose interest any time I try to read the swap threads, but it sure seems to me that swapping an old school 350 in place of an old school 305 is going to require a lot less fabrication and studying than an LS swap.

 

That's why you buy an LS3 for $1500 or LS7 block for the same price. Or the texas speed sleeved 5.3 block for 2k . The cost of the LS swap is rarely never the cost of the engine itself. It is everything else.

 

I wasn't advocating buying a new block. I am advocating buying a used engine, despite the miles, because it already has the accessories and you can usually get a complete pullout including harness and PCM for the cost of buying short block alone.

 

100% agree. T56 LS1 combos go for around 4 to 5 k and include everything you need sans exhaust and mounts. Should have elaborated that a new block isn't that expensive but by the time you build/rebuild it you can sink a ton of cash into it. Get a good running used one in place and build new on the side if you have to.

 

Unless it's for period correctness or you already own lots of go fast parts rebuilding/building a SBC is a waste of time and money. Any four cylinder car made in the last decade is probably going to be rated at 175 HP which is the same amount a TBI engine made. Any six cylinder car will be at least 225 which is what the TPI cars made. The Turbo charged 4 cylinder cars and better V6 cars are making 275-330 HP. Spending $1500-2000 Rebuilding a sbc with the factory heads will only allow you to keep up with some of the import brand family sedans. To make over 300hp just to keep up with the newer American sedans and trucks means you'll need to sink a grand into the cylinder heads. Now you're at $2500-3000. Want to put down 400 HP to keep up with newer sports cars then that'll cost you another grand if not 2K. Now you'd be spending around $4k. Can you then afford if something happens to that engine because a fastener wasn't torqued correctly, a bearing spun or a part was faulty?

That's why the LS engines are so popular. Even the 4.8 engine made 275 in stock form. Cam and exhaust and you'll be sitting at 300 HP minimum. If you want more power than just wait till you find a truck with a 6.0 or do a bigger cam or get a better pair of factory heads. If you break the engine who cares? Not you because youll just go back to a junkyard and pull another and reuse your cam and possibly heads.

Don't waste your time buying an engine that's already been pulled unless you can turn the engine by hand and perform a leak down test on every cylinder.

Don't waste your time buying a 2700 LS car. It's going to make this project even bigger and more work with an even higher buy in.

just because there isn't an LS engine within a twenty minute drive doesn't mean there aren't better deals an hour away. Get a buddy and plan a road trip to a big city that has a bunch of junkyards. You're foolish if you pay over $500 for any size LS truck pullout nowadays.

 

Guys I don't want to leave the forum I keep learning more and more from being here so I'm here to stay. I'm really getting into this auto mechanic thing. And my third gen is keeping that interest alive and well...well combined with this forum and ls1tech.

You all are great. And thanks to the person who stood up for me and my dreaming ways.

My dad is annoyed by it a bit too but I know somewhere it must make him happy that I am interested in what kept food on the plate my whole time growing up. He already said " wait till the winter is over in Pittsburgh then I can use his tools and lift and 3 car shop to get this going.

Bad news. I found a cxracing kit build thread and as silly as it sounds. I am going to do a LM7 with instead of a big cam I could run a single turbo with his kit and save on headers and plant some big numbers even if I just run 10 psi.

Do I need committed?

 

While having that goal for big power is nice, there is so much that will go into that.

If you want an Gen3+ swap, start reading and buy the parts. Don't worry about the turbo for now. In fact, that's a whole different ball of wax.

NA is the simplest engine to build.

 

Yeah I called my dad and he said I can get a turbo after I have had the engine in for 5 years. So. I better just focus on the 5.3 the ls6 intake, accessories, mounts, headers, etc. Question about the harness. Most of the pullout s come with a harness and I see harnesses on hawks for like 999. Am I going to need ignition too? I figured that will come with lm7 pullout.

 

Spend more time reading, and less time browsing Craigslist or posting new threads. Everything you're asking across multiple threads is related to the same topic. Keep it in one topic so everyone is on the same page.

You're still going off halfcocked shopping for parts when you haven't decided how you're actually going to reach your goal. Enthusiasm is great, but jumping in with both feet when you don't know how to swim is a good way to drown. People suggesting you dive into an LS swap with a limited budget and zero skills aren't doing you any favors either.

 

Alright thanks. Time to give fingers a rest for good while to learn and read more on the topics before I post so much. Thanks to all

 

It takes far more skill, specialized tools and patience to properly build an engine than it does to swap in an LS. It's been 10 years since swapping in an LS was impressive.
And once wired and plumbed the LS engine will be far more dependable and make more power.

 

Sure. Except you're dealing with someone that has pretty thoroughly demonstrated that they're a novice with no tools, no place to work on the car, and no experience working on cars. You're expecting someone who has apparently never done anything to a car to rip out 2/3rds of the drivetrain, and bolt in something that never came in the car, along with making that late model truck engine into a 400+hp monster.

It's one thing to unbolt a part and bolt another similar part back in it's place. It's something entirely different to bolt in something different, that requires all different exhaust, accessories, wiring, fuel system, etc. And no one has even asked the OP what his skill level is.

 

All of this.

I've done a number of engine pulls/replacement and even a couple of auto to manual transmission swaps (my TA and a friends 2000 camaro). Every time I get a stirring in my loins to do an LS swap I come back to the same conclusion, that is isn't cost/time effective at my skill level and with the resources available to me. Just the bolt in conversion parts alone for the engine/transmission/exhaust can run into the multiple thousands of dollars and that's not even touching the wiring/fuel/ECM stuff needed.

If I found a free factory GM crate LS sitting in my yard one morning, I would go that route. Buying a used, unknown junkyard engine that requires a couple grand in conversion parts to fit just so I can ride around on a dozen or so nice weekends ? No way.

 

If you are below 30, you should definitely go for LS swap, ABSOLUTELY. Having less tool, mistakes, losses ....there are tens of reason why one should not do 'ANYTHING' of first ever. But there are 20 more reason why you should do it. Certain things are done by youths, and doing car is definitely a great way to have fun. Yes, doing thirdgen is a hobby, else you would not be in this website. You have years to recover errors.. Losing few Ks is no small change, but neither life shattering. If you really want it, go with latest technology, You can educate much quicker, and do better risk assessment comparing to old days with today's readily accessible infos.

If one is old, then yes SBCs.is the reliable, safest way to go since years of experience will not allow you to take risk, even losing 500$ will infuriates you. It is simply a biological/psychological state of mind in a good way to avoid pain.

 

.

 

I don't care what engine you have, you're going to start spending some coin once you go beyond capability of stock parts. The scales tip in favor of LS the more power you make.

 

I'm sorry that you got dumber with age but most people get smarter.

 

This kid doesn't need the power he thinks he needs for one thing.

A stock L31 would be more than enough to get him in serious trouble I should think. Both in terms of the required work to swap it and the power delivery. It's going to likely break his drivetrain, his bank account, and his skill set.

Get your skills up and your bank account solid before you do anything. Get a career and buy a house. Don't build some heap of $hit that's going to be worth absolutely nothing and live in your parents basement or a rented trailer.

Get a pull-out L31, refresh it a bit, and drop it in. Don't do anything to it other than some maintenance.

REAL power you don't need. You'll get in trouble or you'll get dead. Start with torque and get used to that first. A Third Gen with REAL power doesn't handle or stop without EXPENSIVE upgrades that will cost as-much or more than the REAL power cost in the first place.

Stop dreaming and get some bolt ons or an L31 if you must. Learn to wrench and learn to drive first.

GD

 

Going to LS not necessarily equates to 'want more power', or 'going faster then others'. If some one is doing engine for first time, it is not such a huge matter going with LS instead of gen1s. Having a long block of 5.3 LS1 of 3k is possible. Mechanical fittings between Gen1s and LS1 has differences but about same. As for as electronic complexity, 'kids' can learn.

 

What GD said. And it's been pretty well spelled out in this thread and what pushed me to the L31. So 88FastCamaro, go price headers, mounts, oil pan, electrical sensors, coil packs, accessory drive stuff, etc., etc.for an LS and then compare them to the equivalent SBC parts which are a lot cheaper. If you're on a budget, you'll start to choke a bit when you start to add that stuff up....

 

There are tons of info in thrdgen to have successful build of Gen1 or LS. Get all info, connect dots, rehash, .... risk assessment and 'jump in the water'.

 

Guys... The original poster sold his car. Not sure why this was brought back from the dead.

That's mature.

 

It's ironic that you question why the thread got bumped, and then defend the one who did the bumping. LOL

 

yikes. Ill delete my post then. What a waste of time