Motor made 275 hp 315 tq with a joke of an exhaust system attached to it.

planning the exhaust system mainly for the cam and intake im running (see sig) and some brodix 180cc heads that will get some serious porting, 1.6 rockers etc with the goal being around 350 rwhp 375 rwtq.

the hedmans have 1 5/8ths primaries and are really inexpensive
the hookers have 1 3/4 primaries and are more expensive

The hedmans you supposedly cant use with the T-5 bellhousing (slave cylinder is in the wrong spot for em? but im running a TKO-600 5 speed with a lakewood bellhousing and i think that cures the issue.
From what i hear the hedmans have better ground clearance then the hookers and fit easier.

The hooker long tubes are more difficult to install apparently and more expensive with less ground clearance. But they have larger primaries.

Whats better for my combo, keeping in mind that this car is more of a street with occasional road racing car, then a full out race/drag car

 

I would say that the hookers are better for street, since they are closer to the floor pans, which means more ground clearance. I have received three pairs that were messed up from hooker, one from summit, they sent me a dented primary, used scratched up set. I am getting kind of aggrivated, because this cars(formula 350, one of 25, documeted by PHS) is close to running, and it's delaying the project, and now I start school again tomorrow.

Hedmans are good headers too, I got the Ceramic coated hooker 2210's, they do have larger primaries, which is good for peak hp, but not the most important, the smaller primaries are good for torque, so that would come in handy for road racing, but that comes in handy for anything. But after I was putting the one, that was not sized right from hooker, it was hitting the control arm support, on the passenger side, so I couldn't put the #4 bolt in the flange, into the head.

I called hooker talked to them, and they said they are supposed to clear, but you do have to relocate your knock sensor, the tubes, right up against it, so removing the passenger side, #2 fan switch, would work fine. I am using Sportsman II cylinder heads, and they have a larger hole, and I am using a plug, with the size of the knock sensor in the middle, so I am relocating it to that position, I used a 33K ohm resistor to bypass it in my cavalier(it had a bad lifter, making too much noise, so it cut the power down to, one cylinder, it sucked) and I'm relocating the knock sensor to the cylinder head, and then putting the header on.

The headers, seem like they would offer good ground clearance, after the look of me trying to install them, so that's good, because mines going to be a street car too, but mostly a drag car, any questions PM me, check out my car, it's almost back together www.cardomain.com/ride/471099

 

sorry i didnt fully understand.

What is all that about having to relocate the knock sensor and how exactly do you do it.

already have the angle grinder ready to go lol so anything that doesnt quite fit can be notched out.

other then the knock sensor i already have a mini-starter, anything else i should be worried about?

 

Well, if your using Hooker 2210's, maybe other ones, you need to relocate the knock sensor, to the cylinder head, because the #6 primarie tube, is hitting the knocksensor, so you could relocate it to the cylinder head, after you have it on, there is clearance in the flange, to put the fitting into the cylinder head.

I am going to reuse my starter, I don't think you need to use a mini starter, but that comes in handy for other jobs too, but you should be able to simply grab the metal that holds the dipstick to the manifold usually, hold it, and turn it, that should give you the room you'll need, then turn it back to the position you need it in. Worst case scenario, Chrome dipsticks from Trans dapt, are correct for the amount of oil you need, and are only $10.00

 

lol so im doing this in my driveway and already have the old headers off, what am i going to do about this fitting. Can i find something to plug the hole for the knock sensor and have it relocated after driving it to a shop. Will the car run with no knock sensor?

and how impossible will it be for a shop to drill out the hole in the head with the headers already installed? i have a/c still on the passenger side so that gets in the way a lot

 

Well, you can use a plug, I have one, but the old knock sensor, broke off, in a show car! They are really difficult to remove, mine turned, then some more, then "snap" I have one of the fittings here, it measures a 1/2", but I think it's a 3/8" NPT size. You shouldn't need to drill the head, you put it in between the #6/8 cylinders, the head has a switch in it, it will be slightly larger, so the size will be different than the switch, it is a little smaller. Yes you can drive the car with it disconnected, but it will have retarded timing, because that's what they do, when it's working the computer sends 12V to the sensor, and it gets between 8-10V back to the computer, and that means theres no "Knock" so it drives with power. With the headers installed, your going to need something to plug that hole, if not it will leak, but there should be a switch already in that hole, so it will be in the way of the header. If theres no hole, I have no idea what SBC you have. I'm on Aim and yahoo messenger as "formula3fity" if you want to talk more. Hope I could help

 

forgive the fact that honestly my knowledge of cars is pretty much limited to what ive read on tgo, and things ive had to fix (which is getting to be a long list) on my car.

im pretty much just not scared to turn a wrench

the knock sensor is in the passenger side of the block correct?, ill go take a look tommorow so i have a better idea of what exactly im asking.

i dont get what you mean by a switch, i have aftermarket heads and i dont think theres anything between the 6 and 8 cylinders but i could be wrong

 

I believe in between (1 and 3) & (6 and 8) is the temp sensor which sends the reading to your temp gauge. Maybe only one of your heads is drilled for it? Check between 1 and 3 if there's nothing between 6 and 8. Good luck.
-Greg

 

sorry ya between 6 and 8 is the i believe secondary fan temp sensor? are you sugesting i should hook up the knock sensor there and ditch the secondary fan sensor?

 

well, theres a switch between cylinder 6 and 8, it's like the switch on the drivers side(the fan switch) but this one is on the passenger side, a lot of places and books call it the a/c fan switch, or #2 fan switch. On mose motors, the passenger side fan switch is broken off, yeah they don't usually use them, neither two of my f-bodies, had working A/C, so that is why it wasn't probably needed, and yes the knock sensor is on the passenger side of the block, did you buy the hooker super comps or comps or shorties? The knock sensor might not be in the way, if your using shorties, but for long tubes I believe it will be on all versions.

Let me know if you need more help or have questions, I'll be receiving the 4th set of my headers hopefully on wednesday. I had the first one with holes that weren't drilled all the way through, then second pair, wouldn't fit right, then third, were used, dented primaries and used, sent in a f'd up, destroyed box from Summit, so hopefully they work this time, after the 4th time.

I'm doing 2.5" true duals with a h-pipe, then bullet mufflers, then dumps before the axle.

I used nickel/chrome coated edelbrock shorties, then 3"bullet muffler, the 18" long one, then a dump before the axle, worked great, nice and loud

Yeah ditch the fan sensor, I have a switch for my fans, so I don't need fan switch's, I turn them on by myself, works good for the track too. I suggest it, set up a switch for the fans's with relays

 

ya mine was disconnected for a while, but is hooked back up now.

Allright if i can just relocate the knock sensor there then thats no big deal.

As far as model i ordered hooker comp shorties and they will not fit with my lakewood bellhousing for the tko-600 5 speed, the flange is right at the lip of the bellhousing and theres just no way.

i was looking at the 2210's painted version. I know hooker also makes versions of the long tube as just the competition with 1 5/8ths tubes and 2.5" collector but the 2210's if im not mistaken are the most easily bolted in model.

what are you using? why would you use something with a 3" collector and then go to a 2.5" pipe

 

I like the switch for cooling the motor off when your sitting at the pits, waiting to get your car to the staging lanes. I will eventually wind up getting a Moroso water pump motor, and have that on a switch, and just be using a belt for the Alternator, go towww.cardomain.com/ride/471099/ to see how I have the belt setup on the motor, it's not complicated, I only have the alt and water pump on the motor, I got rid of the A/C, power steering, smog pump, so, it makes it simpler and frees horsepower.

 

Well, any long tube header is at least 3" like the 2210's, so I'm bringing it to a 2.5" because the 3" is too big unless you have a 550 hp engine. If you go too big, you lose hp and torque, and it's louder than it needs to be. But the biggest thing is you lose hp and torque.

I am going to 2.5" because I want to keep hp and torque. So after the headers, I'm going into a H-pipe, then into bullet mufflers, then I'm going to have dumps before the axle, so it will be sweet. I'll go to a Custom x-pipe when I have 550 hp and I need 3" exhaust, then that will work good, and be louder, what I also want. V8 vroom!!!

 

this should be a little easier
look at these pictures for me and tell me where you think ill have problems

here is a pic first of the

passenger side of the engine bay


and the drivers side


now on the passenger side as long as i clear the starter i guess ill be okay, a little worried about that starter block but hopefully ill clear that or only need to grind a little off of it. As for the knock sensor?? thats i think under the number 4 tube, i would think that would be out of the way? but apparently you guys are saying i can just thread it into the secondary fan switch sensor which you can see there?

drivers side ive heard it said that you need to temporarily disconnect the oil filter and the oil sending whatever which i think is that large black connector right above the filter, thats no big deal.

What about the slave cylinder connection down there and the lip it connects to off the bellhousing, is that going to be an issue?

 

Well, those sensors, on the cylinder head, you may be able to slip the flange of the header over those, the plugs will need to come out, or you can buy new ones, after you break them off. The starter isn't usually in the way with shorties, long tubes, the starters almost always have to come out, unless you have a small compact starter.

When you go to put the knocksensor into one of the cylinder heads, you will need a fitting, that the knocksensor threads into, then threads into the head. You will also need to set up some kind of manual switches and relay's for the fans, to be turned on when it the engine has ran for some time, it's a good method, and you can leave them on, after the engine is off, to cool the engine off.

You will also need a plug for the original knock sensor hole in the block, I mentioned it earlier. You can always do whatever you would like to, were just giving you some ideas, this isn't what has to be done.

 

ya im just doing my best to trouble shoot problems before they happen.

all those plugs are just to fill the holes so theyre not sitting open same with the sensors.

ill get some sort of a fitting for the knock sensor to go into the head, good to know.

having to remove things and put them back in is no issue, im worried about stuff that wont fit period.

My MAIN concern right now is on the driver side, will the long tubes run underneath where the slave cylinder connects on the bellhousing? i know there are issues running long tubes with where the factory t-5 slave cylinder attaches.

 

I would spray down that Knock sensor, it will work properly, but mine, simply broke off! And mines a show car, check it out
www.cardomain.com/ride/471099 Spray some liquid wrench on it or something It was a 3/4" or 7/8" Today they were shipping out my headers from summit, my 4th pair! I hope that this set will work properly, I don't want dented in headers, scratched or used ones either, I hope this 4th set will be ok. The 3rd sent was dented, scratched and damaged, my 2nd set hit the passenger control arm support, I couldn't put in some of the flange bolts, the 2nd set; and my first set wasn't finished being machined in the flange area, and fit a head like ****. I have one of the originals in my room, but I'm using World Sportisman II's, which are way better than L98's, but I made my originals flow great, but one had core-shift.

 

Just to keep you posted, these are things you should do that Hooker doesn't mention. The supervisor told me, that they make the heders not for a show car, but more a drag car, so they aren't going to be perfect when you get them. I am on my 4th set, and they fit, but doing these things is required, it was for me, in a car, they only made 25 of, but some tiny metal on the control arms, isn't going to make a difference.

-you also have to remove the oil filter to clear the primaries when you put the header in, put both in from the bottom.

-the drivers side, top trans bolt for the flywheel cover

-the oil pressure sender

-raise the motor as much as you can, three inches like the instructions says, isn't possible, unless you smash in the trans tunnel and maybe the distributor

-put some wood on the jack in between the jack and oil pan

-also if you get a sawzahl with some good blades, the bi-metal blades from milwaukee, the Torch ones, work well, to cut off the corners of the control arm supports that also helps, they aren't needed, I know it sounds crazy but it helps.

-also taking a diegrinder to remove some of the smashed ends of the 4-pipes that go into the collector, they are smashed in, and don't help scavenging, it's not much, just excess metal

-Also, the oil cooler lines, from the antifreeze lines, you should remove those, because the oil cooler, that's sandwhiched in between the filter, that needs to be removed, because the lines that attach, to the sandwhich lines, bash right into the header primary tubes, a nice pain in the ***, so in order to put the filter back on, you need to get two smaller bolts, otherwise you can't put the filter on.

I just thought I'd keep you posted on these. So yeah they may fit ok, BUT I wonder if anyone else seemed to mention this. I'd rather go with the edelbrocks, because when I put them in my IROC-Z, there were no clearance issues or oil cooler, lines, filter, or anything else I had to do, they fit great, and I had the motor running the same day, so, you may want to keep that in mind.

It really pisses me off, that SUMMIT or HOOKER doesn't mention all of these other things you have to do, BUT they are long tubes, but I wonder if the Hedmans may be better, I'm not sure. I just know that the HOOKER's are good for power, and the 1 3/4" primaries are what I wanted for upper HP.

Good luck, I stopped just before it started raining like crazy.
----------
Just to keep you posted, these are things you should do that Hooker doesn't mention. The supervisor told me, that they make the heders not for a show car, but more a drag car, so they aren't going to be perfect when you get them. I am on my 4th set, and they fit, but doing these things is required, it was for me, in a car, they only made 25 of, but some tiny metal on the control arms, isn't going to make a difference.

-you also have to remove the oil filter to clear the primaries when you put the header in, put both in from the bottom.

-the drivers side, top trans bolt for the flywheel cover

-the oil pressure sender

-raise the motor as much as you can, three inches like the instructions says, isn't possible, unless you smash in the trans tunnel and maybe the distributor

-put some wood on the jack in between the jack and oil pan

-also if you get a sawzahl with some good blades, the bi-metal blades from milwaukee, the Torch ones, work well, to cut off the corners of the control arm supports that also helps, they aren't needed, I know it sounds crazy but it helps.

-also taking a diegrinder to remove some of the smashed ends of the 4-pipes that go into the collector, they are smashed in, and don't help scavenging, it's not much, just excess metal

-Also, the oil cooler lines, from the antifreeze lines, you should remove those, because the oil cooler, that's sandwhiched in between the filter, that needs to be removed, because the lines that attach, to the sandwhich lines, bash right into the header primary tubes, a nice pain in the ***, so in order to put the filter back on, you need to get two smaller bolts, otherwise you can't put the filter on.

I just thought I'd keep you posted on these. So yeah they may fit ok, BUT I wonder if anyone else seemed to mention this. I'd rather go with the edelbrocks, because when I put them in my IROC-Z, there were no clearance issues or oil cooler, lines, filter, or anything else I had to do, they fit great, and I had the motor running the same day, so, you may want to keep that in mind.

It really pisses me off, that SUMMIT or HOOKER doesn't mention all of these other things you have to do, BUT they are long tubes, but I wonder if the Hedmans may be better, I'm not sure. I just know that the HOOKER's are good for power, and the 1 3/4" primaries are what I wanted for upper HP.

Good luck, I stopped just before it started raining like crazy.

How did you put those pics up on cardomain? I have a lot but, how do I put them on here, because I could probably take some pics and post them to help you, and then you'd understand the clearance issues

 

ya headers came in today gonna pick em up tommorow, planning on pulling out the starter oil filter and oil sender before even trying

hopefully have pics and a sound clip up this weekend

 

hookers.

and there shouldnt be any install issues if you read the (really good) thread about it.. it should still be a sticky.

 

I also didn't put in the #8 pipe, on the drivers side, until I have heat protection over the starter wires and the knock sensor, so they won't burn, then after the starter is in, attach the wires, for a little extra clearance, then put them in, hopefully yours aren't all motched up, mine were.

But they just put some paper in the box, and a bag of 1/32nd thick foam plastic over the headers, and you know how UPS moves stuff, like ****!

Hopefully mines running by this weekend too, it hasn't in 4 years on september 13th.