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What do we consider a proper restoration?

Old 01-29-2019, 08:43 AM
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What do we consider a proper restoration?

I'm putting this car up as an example. The seller claims it is a restoration. As you can see in the pictures, many areas are not restored to represent a factory finish. What would Mark Worman say if this were a '70 Road Runner "restored" in this style? Is it even possible to do a traditional restoration on a 3rd gen, considering available aftermarket support?





https://www.ebay.com/itm/1989-Chevro...1:pf:1&vxp=mtr


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Old 01-29-2019, 09:12 AM
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Re: What do we consider a proper restoration?

That Car Has Been Restored But Modified,To Me Restored Is To Bring It Back As It Came From The Factory,
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Old 01-29-2019, 09:31 AM
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Re: What do we consider a proper restoration?

Originally Posted by gt4373 View Post
That Car Has Been Restored But Modified,To Me Restored Is To Bring It Back As It Came From The Factory,

Yeah, but tough to redo an interior when the aftermarket fabrics are not even close.
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Old 01-29-2019, 10:01 AM
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Re: What do we consider a proper restoration?

There was a thread here, several years ago, where someone did an actual restoration of an '82 Pace Car. I believe he bought another three '82s as parts cars and refinished and re-used the best parts out of all of them for a correct as possible resto. Interesting thread, I'll see if I can find it.
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Old 01-29-2019, 10:23 AM
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Re: What do we consider a proper restoration?

To me restoring it is making it factory correct and most people over restore "restored" vehicles.
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Old 01-29-2019, 10:29 AM
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Re: What do we consider a proper restoration?

Originally Posted by scooter View Post
To me restoring it is making it factory correct and most people over restore "restored" vehicles.
That's true. My friend has a mint, 17K mile, '67, 427 Impala with original paint. He took it to MCACN a couple years ago and parked it with all the restored cars with their $20-$30,000 paint jobs. It was weird, when parked next to those cars, his seemed so "correct" and authentic because it was. They others looked like cartoon cars, with their mile deep clear coat.
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Old 01-29-2019, 11:06 AM
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Re: What do we consider a proper restoration?

what's the point in doing a "proper restoration" to a thirdgen? it's not like these cars are rare or worth a ton of money. i suppose some might be down the road, but i would say 98% of them aren't special. nice examples are still rather inexpensive. you will save a TON of money buying a nice low mile thirdgen instead of restoring one. i know a lot of times there's a sentimental reason to restore a car. that's different though because i feel those owners probably intend to keep the car forever.

the original plan for the 1984 Trans Am i'm currently working on started out as just a restoration project. it's a black & gold, t-top with saddle tan interior and the H.O. engine. i was hoping to have a nice stock car once it was complete, but then along the way i figured if i'm spending all this money working on a car i might as well make the car better and include modern technology / amenities. like scooter said, i've now over-restored the vehicle. i guess it would fall into the pro-touring category even though the car will still mostly appear stock. it was important to me not to change the look of the car so a lot of time has been spent making tasteful / subtle modifications that non-thirdgen (and maybe a few thirdgen) owners might not even notice: smoothed engine bay, flush kindig-it door handles, smoothed fuel door with popper, smoothed fender vents, better panel alignment / gaps, big brakes, etc... there will be much more by the time it is all said and done, but those are the major items completed so far. i know the car will never be worth what i have into it, but i don't care because i don't ever plan to sell it.

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Old 01-29-2019, 11:46 AM
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Re: What do we consider a proper restoration?

Originally Posted by battmann View Post
what's the point in doing a "proper restoration" to a thirdgen? it's not like these cars are rare or worth a ton of money. i suppose some might be down the road, but i would say 98% of them aren't special. nice examples are still rather inexpensive. you will save a TON of money buying a nice low mile thirdgen instead of restoring one. i know a lot of times there's a sentimental reason to restore a car. that's different though because i feel those owners probably intend to keep the car forever.

the original plan for the 1984 Trans Am i'm currently working on started out as just a restoration project. it's a black & gold, t-top with saddle tan interior and the H.O. engine. i was hoping to have a nice stock car once it was complete, but then along the way i figured if i'm spending all this money working on a car i might as well make the car better and include modern technology / amenities. like scooter said, i've now over-restored the vehicle. i guess it would fall into the pro-touring category even though the car will still mostly appear stock. it was important to me not to change the look of the car so a lot of time has been spent making tasteful / subtle modifications that non-thirdgen (and maybe a few thirdgen) owners might not even notice: smoothed engine bay, flush kindig-it door handles, smoothed fuel door with popper, smoothed fender vents, better panel alignment / gaps, big brakes, etc... there will be much more by the time it is all said and done, but those are the major items completed so far. i know the car will never be worth what i have into it, but i don't care because i don't ever plan to sell it.
What you say is true. There are currently so many nice, low mile, 3rd gens in circulation, it's just cheaper to buy one of those. With that said, it's hard to find a "restored" one without a mediocre outcome, either due to inadequate replacement pieces or lack of effort to final detail.

Last edited by chazman; 01-29-2019 at 12:10 PM.
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Old 01-29-2019, 12:15 PM
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Re: What do we consider a proper restoration?

I think to a LOT of people, restored is literally the definition of the word. Restored, -in some fashion. It means different things to a car collector. To "you" collectors, it means restored to factory condition. ...but for a lot of people, that white car could be considered restored. ...and a lot of people will be impressed to hear the word restored, even if they don't even know exactly what it means! For the purposes of TGO, I would not consider that restored, but I understand why someone would say that in an add.
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Old 01-29-2019, 01:07 PM
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Re: What do we consider a proper restoration?

I think there are different types of restorations.

There are folks that consider a 69 Camaro with candy cartoon paint, crazy looking interior design and an LS a restoration because all the old, crusty, rusty stuff was replaced with something shiny and new. On those 60s cars they are still worth a lot of money done like that and many people prefer resto-mods.

I think you can restore a Thirdgen if you find a good body and paint guy who knows what the details were from the factory, Use an interior company like Lethal Interiors who can get the factory correct fabrics and replicate brand new vintage seats. Replace any trim and interior parts with the best reproduction parts you can find and anything that isn’t satisfactory, be on the lookout for NOS parts or used parts that you might be able to refurbish, but in the meantime make do with what’s available.

I think you can do a decent restoration with what’s out there but a lot of the “restored” cars we see are way off the mark. If you customize an IROC too much you take away the powerful nostalgia that people have when they remember them the way they were. (i.e. I wouldn’t have feelings about some crazy brushed metal, wood and leather steering wheel with a chrome bow tie, I remember the IROC steering wheel and that’s what I want to see)

I think a car like a 69 Camaro has always been an icon through the decades so any shape and size gets the job done and gets appreciated. What the IROCs have going for them is the power of nostalgia that grew over a time they were forgotten. Too much customization does not make use of that power. And that power brings dollars$$$..

Nut and Bolt Concourse Restoration
Resto-mod
Custom Restoration
Restore To Flip (the worst)
Partial Restoration

There’s different types of updating a car and decisions to make, but I think they are all considered restorations. Not all types of restorations suit all cars.

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Old 01-29-2019, 01:12 PM
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Re: What do we consider a proper restoration?

If the car was a rusted pile and you turned it back into what it is here...then I say you could call it restored. But again, I don't know the condition beforehand. Looks like they done a nice job, but a low mileage stock car sells for 15k...not a restored one.
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Old 01-29-2019, 01:13 PM
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Re: What do we consider a proper restoration?

Restored can mean different things to different people. In the Mark Worman example, no this car is far from they way it was the day it was born, but there is no claim in the ad that the restoration was factory correct. If in fact it checks out to have truly been completely taken apart, new paint, new mechanicals and trim/interior refinished/refurbished/replaced, then yes, it is a restored car, just not factory correct. As long as there is no misrepresentation of that, I don't have an issue with it. Even so, you can tell this car is a little "off", so it will bring less money than either a factory correct restoration and even less than a low mileage original.

Using Mark Worman as another example, he has stated that the quality of his restorations of the old Mopars are much better today than 20 or 30 years ago. Back then, there were limited restoration parts available and what was out there wasn't very good and usually very obvious they were repro parts, but that's all they had to work with. This isn't all that different than where we are today with our cars. It would be very difficult to do a correct resto on a thirdgen today, unless you were able to scavenge for NOS or good used parts. Not impossible, but would be a challenge.
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Old 01-29-2019, 01:14 PM
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Re: What do we consider a proper restoration?

IMO,

Restoration = just as it was when it left the factory

Resto-mod = everything other then above
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Old 01-29-2019, 01:37 PM
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Re: What do we consider a proper restoration?

Originally Posted by BizJetTech View Post
IMO,

Restoration = just as it was when it left the factory

Resto-mod = everything other then above
I was going to also suggest Resto-Mod, however every definition I looked up described it as a restoration with upgrades to newer, modern technologies (ex. 69 Camaro with LS swap, overdrive transmission, 4-wheel disc brakes, etc.). This car doesn't really fit that definition either.

Where is the line drawn to define Restoration vs Resto-Mod or something else? As an extreme example, if you did a perfect restoration with all NOS parts, but the only thing you couldn't find were correct date coded spark plug wires and used an aftermarket replacement, is the car no longer considered restored? I wouldn't think it still would be, but would be taken into consideration when evaluating the quality of the restoration and putting a value on the car. There is always a level of accuracy and quality that gets considered.

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Old 01-29-2019, 02:48 PM
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Re: What do we consider a proper restoration?

Originally Posted by TransamGTA350 View Post

Using Mark Worman as another example, he has stated that the quality of his restorations of the old Mopars are much better today than 20 or 30 years ago. Back then, there were limited restoration parts available and what was out there wasn't very good and usually very obvious they were repro parts, but that's all they had to work with. This isn't all that different than where we are today with our cars. It would be very difficult to do a correct resto on a thirdgen today, unless you were able to scavenge for NOS or good used parts. Not impossible, but would be a challenge.
Exactly!

Also as Worman admits, his Mopars have, paint, fit and finish, far superior to the factory's.
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Old 01-29-2019, 02:55 PM
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Re: What do we consider a proper restoration?

Yet another reason I buy low mile, original, relatively untouched cars - you'd spend WAY more performing a restoration then you would just
going out an buying a nice, original, low mile third gen - restorations are money pits and you'll never get anything close to what you put into them
back if you decide to sell it.
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Old 01-29-2019, 03:30 PM
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Re: What do we consider a proper restoration?

Originally Posted by BizJetTech View Post
Yet another reason I buy low mile, original, relatively untouched cars - you'd spend WAY more performing a restoration then you would just
going out an buying a nice, original, low mile third gen - restorations are money pits and you'll never get anything close to what you put into them
back if you decide to sell it.
Very true. Absolutely true.
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Old 01-29-2019, 04:36 PM
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Re: What do we consider a proper restoration?

Originally Posted by BizJetTech View Post
Yet another reason I buy low mile, original, relatively untouched cars - you'd spend WAY more performing a restoration then you would just
going out an buying a nice, original, low mile third gen - restorations are money pits and you'll never get anything close to what you put into them
back if you decide to sell it.
Definitely cheaper to spend $18-28k on a low miler or even $30-37k on a museum quality piece than to spend under $6k on a beat up car and put $40-50k into it..
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Old 01-29-2019, 04:48 PM
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Re: What do we consider a proper restoration?

My thoughts

"Concours" Restoration = just as it was when it left the factory

Restification= new parts and 100% working to factory spec but not "concours correct" Driver quality and above.

Resto-mod = pro-touring, street freak, cars with newer tech/drivetrains or drag car

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Old 01-29-2019, 05:01 PM
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Re: What do we consider a proper restoration?

Restification.....I like that!
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Old 01-29-2019, 06:15 PM
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Re: What do we consider a proper restoration?

Is it possible to restore something "just as it left the factory?" I don't think so. Let's look at something simple. A relay goes bad. Do you A: take apart and rebuild the relay or B: replace the relay? On my 90 Formula a factory relay was bad. The original owner left it attached to the firewall, but plugged in a new relay and tucked it under the booster. First of all, the factory relay is still there, but now we have this extra one. Now, if I go to a show, I could remove the new relay, plug in the bad relay and it would be factory 100%, however the car won't start! It did not leave the factory that way. If you rebuild the factory relay, you will at least have to replace some of the internals which will not be factory. Now, you could also track down a NOS perfectly correct relay that is exactly the same type that would have been installed, but it's still not the one the car originally came with. Therefore, not 100% factory correct. I'm splitting hairs here, but I don't believe it's possible to restore something "just as it left the factory." Is a relay traceable to a specific car? Not that I'm aware of, however it's still not the exact one it came with!

I do believe it's possible to restore a car to "appear" factory correct, but not "as it left the assembly line."
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Old 01-29-2019, 06:55 PM
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Re: What do we consider a proper restoration?

Originally Posted by TransamGTA350 View Post
Restification.....I like that!
Nice one!
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Old 01-29-2019, 06:56 PM
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Re: What do we consider a proper restoration?

Originally Posted by kentuckyKITT View Post
Is it possible to restore something "just as it left the factory?" I don't think so. Let's look at something simple. A relay goes bad. Do you A: take apart and rebuild the relay or B: replace the relay? On my 90 Formula a factory relay was bad. The original owner left it attached to the firewall, but plugged in a new relay and tucked it under the booster. First of all, the factory relay is still there, but now we have this extra one. Now, if I go to a show, I could remove the new relay, plug in the bad relay and it would be factory 100%, however the car won't start! It did not leave the factory that way. If you rebuild the factory relay, you will at least have to replace some of the internals which will not be factory. Now, you could also track down a NOS perfectly correct relay that is exactly the same type that would have been installed, but it's still not the one the car originally came with. Therefore, not 100% factory correct. I'm splitting hairs here, but I don't believe it's possible to restore something "just as it left the factory." Is a relay traceable to a specific car? Not that I'm aware of, however it's still not the exact one it came with!

I do believe it's possible to restore a car to "appear" factory correct, but not "as it left the assembly line."
Yes,...........your splitting hairs.....or as some may say......picking the fly sh*t out of the pepper
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Old 01-29-2019, 07:03 PM
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Re: What do we consider a proper restoration?

I generally think replacing “wear and tear” parts is acceptable..

Battery, Relays, Fuses, Brakes, Tires, Belts, Hoses, etc..

I mean, the car has to run like it’s new as well as look like it’s new..

Cars are supposed to be able to drive even if you don’t drive it.. I believe Jay Leno said all the cars in his collection are in working order and can be driven.

Maybe massive brake and suspension upgrades might be overboard for some, but you can make changes that can be reversed as well.
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Old 01-29-2019, 09:30 PM
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Re: What do we consider a proper restoration?

Originally Posted by chazman View Post
That's true. My friend has a mint, 17K mile, '67, 427 Impala with original paint. He took it to MCACN a couple years ago and parked it with all the restored cars with their $20-$30,000 paint jobs. It was weird, when parked next to those cars, his seemed so "correct" and authentic because it was. They others looked like cartoon cars, with their mile deep clear coat.
Was this the Capri Cream SS427?? I think there was a black one there this past show.... I can't remember them all... LOL!
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Old 01-29-2019, 10:25 PM
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Re: What do we consider a proper restoration?


Originally Posted by BIRD91ZRAG View Post
Was this the Capri Cream SS427?? I think there was a black one there this past show.... I can't remember them all... LOL!
Here it is in my friends garage days after it came out of it's 44 year slumber.
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Old 01-30-2019, 07:13 AM
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Re: What do we consider a proper restoration?

WOW! grew up watching my Dad restore old cars like that one. Hes slowed down now
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Old 01-30-2019, 11:24 AM
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Re: What do we consider a proper restoration?

restoration noun [ C/U ]
US /ˌres·təˈreɪ·ʃən/
the act or the process of returning something to its original condition, or to a statesimilar to its original condition:
Definition of “restoration” from the Cambridge Academic Content Dictionary © Cambridge University Press)

By this definition the car fits the bill!
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Old 01-30-2019, 11:27 AM
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Re: What do we consider a proper restoration?

Originally Posted by TTOP350 View Post
My thoughts

"Concours" Restoration = just as it was when it left the factory

Restification= new parts and 100% working to factory spec but not "concours correct" Driver quality and above.

Resto-mod = pro-touring, street freak, cars with newer tech/drivetrains or drag car
I like this too
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Old 01-30-2019, 01:12 PM
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Re: What do we consider a proper restoration?

I am a purist..."restore" to me is a word of degree. I have learned that people use the word with a broad range of reference. Sometimes I think fix-up should be best used. Restore is with factory original part numbers. Our example up there ^^^^^^..... oh boy.
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Old 01-31-2019, 02:17 PM
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Re: What do we consider a proper restoration?

Restoration means back to the original condition, IMO. My husband restored this car- the frame was rolled out, and he spent hours on his back making the bottom of this clean again. He then painted it the original red oxide primer, just like it would have had from the factory. The only thing on this car that was not original or reproduction correct to the era, was the engine. He built a nice 350 roller engine out of one of my wrecked parts Camaros. Now, we have freshened up nice third gen Camaros that just needed paint, and those have sold for good money. WE started with a good drivetrain and interior, and just took care of the typical clear coat peeling paint.
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