V8SC1987

So I decided to go ahead and post these questions here since pocket seems to be pretty busy lately, and I don't usually get a response from him when I message him.

I'm pretty close to getting my engine and transmission in my car (waiting on an LS7 clutch kit), so I went ahead and tried to go ahead and plug my harness in to see how everything looked. Most of it was pretty intuitive but I did have a few questions about what's there and what isn't. Hopefully the following pics will help.



Where is this "AC pressure" connector supposed to go?



Does this mean I'm supposed to supply a power distribution block?



My biggest issue is with the transmission wiring... there is none. Is this right? I know my harness was originally from a T56 car, and that's the way I'm going back. I thought there'd still be connectors there for the backup lights, reverse lockout, and the vehicle speed sensor, but none of them are there. The only wires I see that even remotely pertain to the transmission are the ones in the pic above that are grouped in with the C207 connector. Anybody know what's the deal with this?

Z28ricer

iTrader: (2)

AC pressure sensor you would need to have put into your custom a/c lines when you make them / have them made.

There should have been a stock distribution block, which is generally by the battery, its not much of a block, really just a chunk of plastic with a stud on it that one wire from the battery cable hooks up to and then all of the places that need power get ring terminals stacked on, then a nut.

The transmission wiring should be there, i'm not sure what to say here, I also dont know if the wires you posted are to go inside the car, or to the transmission, if this was for an auto car going T56 it would make sense for two wires to be routed inside for you to hookup to the existing two that go on the shifters switch so that your reverse lights still work, but if its the transmission end, and you started with a 5spd car then i'd guess they were hooked up in the correct location in the C100 and that somehow you're missing the pigtail for the switch.

Another thing I noticed, but i'm not certain on from your pics, but it appears that your power supply wires that go to the dist block are just straight wire with rings crimped on, if thats the case thats pretty terrible, and you need to get some fusible link wire and install it between that wire and the rings, you can find it at most parts stores.

V8SC1987

Thanks Z28ricer.

I really think the wires for the back up lights go inside the car too which is why they are grouped with the other wires that go into the car for the cable-x box etc. I hope this doesn't mean I'm totally without any transmission wiring. That's not going to work obviously.

I will have to look into the distribution block. I really don't remember one, and I'm not sure if it's because my car was originally carbed or what. All I remember is a relay there by the batter, but it has been a long time since I took everything apart. You're right about the power supply wires for the dist block. It just has ring terminals crimped onto it. I'll look into the fusible link wire if that's an issue.

Z28ricer

iTrader: (2)

This will do the job if yours is missing http://www.jegs.com/i/JEGS+Performan...10521/10002/-1

You definetly need to install the fusible links, thats a fire hazard and a very bad thing to miss when assembling a harness, thats the main fuse for a thirdgen, that large wire could easily cause a fire or other major issues if a short did happen, GM didnt put them there for nothing.

If the wires at that end are there for the rev lights, i'd think the rest exists and is just hiding from you somehow ?

V8SC1987

Well I have never been so happy to feel like an idiot The wires for the transmission seem to have tucked away under some stuff. They aren't labelled, but I'm pretty sure that's what those three connectors are for since the rest of the engine is done.

I'll make sure there's no fusible link in that wire and if not I'll get it. Thanks for the link to the power distribution block. That looks very nice.

dprest68

iTrader: (1)

foreground, stock power distibution block on top of my charcoal canister. Junkyard power distibution block in the background. You could probably pick one up at a JY for a buck or two.

Another option is to connect those two red wires to the starter like the factory did.

I believe the two black things on these two wires are the fusible links that Z28ricer was talking about.

Snip two of them off while you are at the JY and you'll be set to go.

V8SC1987

Thanks for the pics. I definitely did not have that factory power distribution block. I'm planning on going to the junkyard soon to get some parts for my car so I'll look for some S10's and those fusible links. Do you know a year range of which trucks those were in?

Also what exactly going to the block other than those two wires?

Z28ricer

iTrader: (2)

That block is on the mid 90's, till the end of the S10's

Just the wires from the engine harness really, and one from the battery to supply the block. Though its a bit odd that you've only got two wires there, did this harness not include fan wiring ? For a complete good harness you should have about 5-6 wires coming into that connection, the main power feeds going to the C100, one for each fan, one for the connection to the a/c harness going through the black 4 position rectangle connector, and one for the fuel pump, the fuel pump one being the only without a fusible link as it should have a fuse holder like the stock setup.

The fusible link in the picture Dprest posted is actually the orange wire itself, the black part is just the connection GM put on them from the factory.

You can buy just the wire, or the wire with ring terminals on it at most parts stores.

V8SC1987

I think my harness only has those two wires that specifically go to the power distribution block. Right now I'm keeping the original single electric fan setup. The wiring included for the fan is the factory connector and a ground wire.

I'm sure the fuel pump wiring is included in the C100 only.

Right now the only wires I have that aren't part of a factory connector that goes to a sensor are the purple starter solenoid wire, those two red wires (from the C100?), 3 grounds for back of the heads, and the fan ground.

dprest68

iTrader: (1)

I've only got two on there at the moment because my harness is removed from the car. Once finished there will be one from the battery, one going out to the starter, one to each fan relay & one to the fuel pump relay. I haven't finished my harness yet, so there might be one or two more.

dprest68

iTrader: (1)

Yes, those two heavy gauge red wires come from the C100

Z28ricer

iTrader: (2)

Even if you just have a single fan, its wiring is part of the engine harness, and should be fed power via another large wire connected to the block, and you should also have one that feeds the a/c blower system there going to the 4 terminal black rectangle connector near the a/c box.

The fuel pump relay should also have a power feed from the block, the only thing for the fuel pump that goes through the C100 should be the power output from the relay going to the pump.

BlueZee28

iTrader: (30)

My harness from Pocket has like 6 or so wires that go to the power distribution block. I don't know what all of them do, but I definitely have a lot more than just two.


If you haven't figured it out yet, the two snipped wires for the transmission pictured in the original post will have to be soldered to two of the six wires coming out of the connection on the automatic shifter that was in the car originally. Out of the six wires, two of them are a bigger gauge than the other four. Those two fatties would go to the clutch switch if you want to have a functioning starter disengage for the clutch. If not having this function doesn't bother you like me, you can simply cut those two wires and solder the ends together. I believe I did the same thing for two of the smaller gauge wires, and then the two remaining wires were soldered one to each of those transmission wires pictured in the original post. I'd have to dig through my dozens of PM's from Pocket from 2009 to figure out which two they are, but it would probably be easier and quicker to look at a wiring diagram and figure out which two 3rd gen wires are designated for the reverse lights. It doesn't matter which wire gets soldered onto which wire on your harness, it will complete the circuit either way.

The other two smaller wires (that I soldered together and mentioned above) I believe are for the neutral safety switch, which explains why it's not needed and you can complete the circuit by soldering them together.

I hope this helps!

V8SC1987

Thanks BlueZee28. That really does help a lot. I've gone over tons of threads about various wiring so it's been hard to keep track of everything. Sounds like the transmission wiring for the pedals and lights is pretty simple. I do want to make sure that I get the right wire for the job though. What kind of wire did you use for that?

I'm also going to go over the harness really well today and tomorrow to see if I have other wires that are destined for the power distribution block. It's obviously not beyond me to miss some wires.

Pocket

iTrader: (24)

AC press connector goes to your factory lower AC line. You'll have to swap the fan switch out for a newer version. Most 90's FWD and S10 sensors work

Power dist block wires go to the power dist block. Be sure to do the alt and battery cables too. I shipped just about every harness I built with the S10 block already on those rings, so you should have one


Back up lights are for an auto to T56 conversion. From your old auto shifter connector, locate the middle pair and splice one wire to each, doesnt matter which

About the fusible links. 1) I dont like them 2) You dont need them because every circuit drawing power from those main 12v wires is already fused at the fuse box, so adding an extra fuse mid-wire is redundant

Not for a carb conversion. Its separate because its simply not there in the factory wiring. You need to run a wire from where it ends from the harness to the tank. A few carb cars had a helper pump you may splice into if you wish, but for most its not there. GM didnt put it in all cars

Older harnesses had independent 12v feeds for each circuit. Later on I calculated loads per wire size/length and spliced several together, so there was only 2-3 rings

This is correct

Here are your power sources


This might help down the road too

Z28ricer

iTrader: (2)

This is incorrect, and is both very dangerous and just a poor idea.


Yes there is a fuse inside of the underdash fuse block, protecting everything from the fuse block and past it, removing the factory fusible links makes for a very possible fire hazard when something happens between the fuse block and the battery, you've created a very real fire hazard every single time you got rid of them because you "dont like them"

Pocket

iTrader: (24)

Wrong

Assuming there is a spike, it would pop the fuses in succession from lowest to highest, then the circuit would be completely open. The risk of electrical fire comes from resistance across said wire and the circuit must be complete in order for that to make a difference. If you took time to strip newer cars you'd see the ONLY fusible link for the entire car is on the alt charge wire, and alot of cars dont even use that as modern regulator are pretty good at keeping things safe. Want to put one there? Be my guest. Ill stick to letting fuses do their job and throw those fragile things in the trash

FYI, a fusible link is just a solid core section of wire 1/2 the gauge of what wire it's protecting. It "protects" the wire by being too small for anything above the specific max load designed into the circuit, therefor creating resistance. When it overheats, it severs the connection opening the circuit, exactly the same thing a standard fuse does, but it extensively more difficult to identify/replace

Theres alot more than just not liking them

Z28ricer

iTrader: (2)

Good, indeed if you took your time to "strip newer cars" (i've parted out probably a hundred 4th gen f-bodys) you'd see that in an extremely short distance there is a fuse distribution center, covering exactly what the thirdgens fusible links do.

They protect the wires along the very long route over to the C100, every single car where you've just decided you knew better than GM, and just tossed them out is now granted a very real fire risk, anywhere along the path between the battery and the C100, if something does happen to the large wires feeding the C100, or the fans, or the fuel pump, it can very well cause a huge electrical short, severely damaging the harness, or possibly burning the car completely to the ground.

Check out any source thats reputable on adding a run of wire to a car, installing a stereo, etc and you'll be instructed to install a fuse within 12ish inches of the battery, the reason for this is exactly the same as those fusible links that you are still too blind to understand.

I've personally disassembled cars (during all of that "stripping newer cars, that apparently you're so much more advanced at) that some of them had partial fire damage, on up to completely car-b-q'd , guess what they had in common, connections like you're for some stupid reason insisting are a good idea.


Oh and FWIW, even "newer" 4th gens still had fusible links.

And NO, they are not just a piece of wire smaller than the wire they are protecting, go ahead and try to just use some regular wire of similar size and find out just how hot you get the protected wire before your makeshift link pops compared to an actual fusible link.

V8SC1987

Those diagrams are a big help. Sorry for not completely understanding, but the two diagrams showing the distribution block are throwing me off a little. The top one seems to apply to mine more with the two wires from the harness and the others from the alternator and starter. The second diagram labelled "12v Battery Diagram" shows wires from each relay going to the distribution block. My harness definitely doesn't have that. Also, is the power distribution block getting ground from the body?

Unfortunately I didn't get the S-10 distribution block with my harness, so I'll have to run by my local junkyard and look for one.

V8SC1987

Sounds like both of you guys feel pretty strongly about your direction with the fusible links. Not too sure what to do here.

Z28ricer

iTrader: (2)

He is foolish and doesnt understand their function, there are many possible ways for the wire to be damaged between the battery/dist block and the C100 and/or the fuel pump and fan relays, its a very long stretch of wire, a short with that large of a wire can easily burn up a complete harness or completely burn your car to the ground. GM put the fusible links there for this exact reason, pocket is too busy thinking about the protection inside the car to be smart enough to understand their function.

I strongly encourage you to install fusible links as they are supposed to be there and could easily save your car and $ one day, or if you are set against a wire that cant quickly be replaced you could use inline fuse holders, or a remote fuse block close to the battery for this.

mille_3

iTrader: (3)

oh arrogance, what a beautiful trait

Z28ricer

iTrader: (2)

I certainly hope you arent directing that at me.

I'm not the one who doesnt understand how the cars electrical system was setup and why.

Nor the one claiming the fusible links are "redundant" when they arent.

QwkTrip

iTrader: (22)

To be fair, I'll bet those fires you see are most often caused by poor wire routing and clipping. Or maybe somebody did a bad crimp and the wire broke away at the crimp and touched ground. Either way, wire protection is the difference between the car suddenly shutting down and the car burning to the ground.

Battery short to ground is bad news!!! The battery can deliver immense energy. It is often the case that the location of the short isn't what catches fire, but the harness insulation melts and burns and the fire travels freely down the harness. For that reason, it is considered good practice to minimize the run of unfused wires and cables that are tied directly to battery. "Minimize" is a very subjective idea, though, and there is no single right answer. It is situational dependent. Some off-highway machines have yards of cable before reaching the first layer of cable protection. Starter motor is about the only exception, not because it's any safer, but because it simply costs a lot to protect a high current cable... so the protection is often omitted unless required by regulation in the market place and the customer will gladly pay for the feature.

Is Pocket wrong for his design philosophy? Not necessarily if the wires are routed and clipped properly. Can you reduce risk of problems? Yes, you can by placing circuit protection close to battery.

Personally, I don't have the stomach for losing my car to an engine bay harness fire when there is an easy prevention. At the same time, I don't like fusible link because it's cheap crap and the least user friendly method possible. I'm planning to place a fuse center close to the battery. If I'm not satisfied with what I see then I'll add a circuit breaker near the battery. Starter motor will just have to be very carefully routed and I'll take the extra precaution to use rubber p-clips and put an abrasion resistant covering on the cables.

Z28ricer

iTrader: (2)

There are many ways things can result in a fusible link popping, yes sometimes routing is a factor, other times something just flat out rubs through, that you didnt notice come loose, or just didnt see. Eliminating the safety factor for no gain is easily a poor choice, especially when you are doing it to other peoples vehicles without them knowing the risks involved.

Indeed some stuff may not have a fuse close to the battery, though its generally something with not much that can damage the wire along the way, the factory harnesses were protected this way for a reason, to suddenly omit this protection from a harness because one doesnt understand what its there for properly is a pretty bad risk to induce into someone elses vehicle.

Yes he is, no matter which way you cut it, that protection is supposed to be there, his reasoning is that its redundant because he thinks its for the protection of the components on the other side of the fuse block, it is very much not the case, its strictly there to protect the wires feeding the block in the event that they are damaged and shorted because of their size they can easily cause a fire.

As you said reducing the risk of problems requires circuit protection close to the battery, exactly how GM did it originally, and exactly what he eliminated.

Exactly what my point is, plenty of people would be terribly upset if they had to watch their car burn to the ground because someone else "didnt like" the protection that was supposed to be there.

Yes I agree fusible links arent that "user friendly" but they are there for a major issue, not something you should be popping very often, nor something you really should be replacing without tracing the source of the issue, so realistically their not being friendly shouldnt be much of a concern. But as you said a fuse center near the battery, like i've already suggested, or inline fuses, or breakers can all be reasonable substitutes, but leaving nothing there is an unsafe idea no matter what.

QwkTrip

iTrader: (22)

I understood you the first time. You're in such a frenzy to force your exact ideas on other people that you can't even leave it alone when somebody says something in your favor.

You are treating this with a black and white frame of mind where ideas are either 100% right or 100% wrong. If you want to think like an engineer then you need to not be so polarized in your point of view. Real engineers are very flexible and can think in a huge grey space where there are options with pro's and con's to be considered. You might be surprised what is really going through our minds when we make decisions.

86White_T/A305

Im not sure but I think what Pocket meant about not reusing the fusible links is that you are using his harness inline with your already factory harness with the fusible link intact.It really depends on where you decide to wire your main power source to begin with.

I dont link fusible links either but I do replace them using inline fuse holders that I can easily change a fuse should anything go wrong.I hated how my factory harnes had the links down by the starter and the wires got soo brittle.I rerouted my main power away from there and changed it with a thicker gauge wire fused at the battery.I also ran my starter/alt power wires with 4ga which is also fused at the battery seperate from the rest of the cars main power wires.

jamieschott

iTrader: (2)

If one was to use in line fuses for these wires, what size fuse would they use?

dprest68

iTrader: (1)

I'm not taking sides on this one. Here's a link to some information I found about fusible links:
http://www.hotrodders.com/forum/jour...usible%20Links
Here's a link to aftermarket fusible links in case you need to replace one.
http://www.madelectrical.com/catalog/fusible-link.shtml

Z28ricer

iTrader: (2)

Yes I am fully aware that you understood the first time, however other people could have easily been confused by your post, you had examples of other things that didnt utilize a fusible link, applications that werent cars, and also statements saying he wasnt 100% wrong and that it can be ok to run without them.

This is completely not the case, there are no if's and's or but's here, the wires need protection, whether it be a fuse, or a fusible link, or a circuit breaker, completely skipping this is a fire hazard, even with your justification of careful routing and installation there is still the fact that an accident can cause things to shift around, i'm sure there are plenty of people that would like to be able to just put their drivetrain into another vehicle rather than watching it burn to the ground.

Real engineers also can identify when something is terribly wrong with what someone is doing and point that out, I tried just pointing it out plain and simple and he wanted to continue to argue that what he was doing was fine, and his reasoning for it, there is a serious flaw in his reasoning, and makes it very clear that he doesnt understand what he was doing.

Remember that I gain nothing from this other than the peace of mind knowing that some peoples cars may not be severely damaged by someone elses poor "engineering"

Unfortunately he's made it clear, and that isnt the case, he's completely removing all protection until the wire makes it through the C100 and to the fuse box under the dash, the opposite side of the fuse block is not what the fusible links protect, they are for something like a hose rubbing through the harness, an accident pinching a wire, heck people have had rats get into their cars and chew up wiring

It sounds like you've done things properly, as i've already said, if you want to replace the links with regular fuses, or a remote fuse box very close to the battery its not a bad idea.


12GA wire use a 20-25A fuse
10GA wire use 30-40A

Technically this still isnt right, but its better than nothing.

If you wanted to do it "right" you could go to the junkyard and get a small block from something that has the fusible links that sorta look like fuses, they are on hondas and nissan's often. Find something that your parts store has replacements for, or grab extras while you're there.

QwkTrip

iTrader: (22)

I wouldn't call my post confusing. It was intriguing and interesting.

The reason you find it confusing is because you can relate only to your own ideas. Everything else goes through your brain processor as, "ERROR - DOES NOT COMPUTE. CONFLICTS WITH PRIMARY OBJECTIVE."

Z28ricer

iTrader: (2)

Again, you seem to not be able to understand.

I fully understood what you were saying.

Your irrelevant information about other applications that dont use fusible links could have mislead some people.

As well as your statement that he isnt right or wrong about the fusible link issue and there being no 100% correct answer there, the fact is that the 100% correct answer is that the wires need to be protected, and that he insists they do not.

mille_3

iTrader: (3)

Z28ricer

iTrader: (2)

Indeed, you've found the facts it seems.


Oh well, if some fool thinking i'm "ignorant" is all the bad I've got to deal with for potentially saving someone from a car-b-q due to someone elses error, i'm good with that.

Just dont forget the facts:

Pocket says the fusible links are redundant as the components are protected by the underdash fuses.

They arent redundant, they protect the wires until they get to the underdash block they supply, and should not be completely bypassed.

When you can prove otherwise, then your own ignorance will be justified.

mille_3

iTrader: (3)

not ignorant, arrogant.

You have a difference of opinions with Pocket, Why do you feel the need to cram it down everyone's throats? You've stated your opinion. That should be enough to make people stop and think.

Just because GM engineered it that way doesn't mean it's now the 11th commandment. Ford engineered the Pinto to explode in a rear end collision...

State your opinion and leave the personal attacks out of it or else move on and stop crapping up the thread.

Z28ricer

iTrader: (2)

There is NO opinion here, you cant seem to grasp it.

He clearly stated his reasoning for thinking its OK to omit them.

It is clearly wrong, their purpose isnt anywhere near what he assumed them to be for.

You seem to not understand that it is a fire hazard, this isnt an opinion about which header coating looks the best, or which size wheels look the best. It is a fire hazard put into the harness by someone who didnt understand what they were doing.

Its not because "gm engineering it that way" it is because it is unsafe to route a wire such a long distance without short circuit protection, even his assumption that newer cars dont have it, is incorrect.

mille_3

iTrader: (3)

/end thread

Z28ricer

iTrader: (2)

Again, says the one arguing that short circuit protection for fire prevention is a matter of opinion.

Indeed a facepalm is appropriate.

88gunmetalgta

iTrader: (1)

Just gonna jump in here without subscribing, cuz I don't see this flame war ending soon....




What about a Fused Power Distribution Block? or a couple of inline, high amp fuses? My personal opinion on fusible links is that they're a terrible idea, and I hate them. but that doesn't meant that those hot wires should be unprotected. I still have that mess of fusible links on my own vehicle's starter....

Z28ricer

iTrader: (2)

You can do any method you want, inline fuses, a remote fuse block close to the battery, fusible links.

The only point is that it is very important to have something there and that the statements about it being redundant, or a matter of opinion are very wrong and could lead to someone having a car burn up for no good reason.

V8SC1987

Does anyone have an answer to the above question?

jamieschott

iTrader: (2)

thanks for the help. Looked at using maxi fuses in a fuse block or the idea you suggested. Since I'm gonna be building g a fuse block relay center anyway. Or the fusible link kits that was linked to a few posts back before the bickering started back up.

dprest68

iTrader: (1)

Pocket basically answered your question in post #15
You could trace the power wires to each relay yourself to see where they are getting power from if you are still curious.

Pocket

iTrader: (24)

The black diagram is all you need. The others are explanatory

Adding protection is never bad, just more to troubleshoot when it fails in the future as links WILL fail eventually. If you are dead set on adding something, Id go with a maxifuse block instead of fusible links

Then why post it? Post up a decent size/length chart if you're going to talk about sizing fuses, then try not to forget the max loads each part can handle

Z28ricer

iTrader: (2)

Why post misinformation claiming that the links are redundant and not needed, when you dont understand what they are for ?

Technically the correct answer is for you to understand what the links are there for and use them properly, a fast blow fuse is not going to be the correct answer for replacing the fusible links, but people are so confused by you about whats actually needed that them installing SOMETHING, is far better than your suggestion.

camarotucker

iTrader: (2)

Good to see you back Pocket.

86White_T/A305

I dont know about the US 100% but when I did my automotive electronic license both mecp and the canadian verison(310k).It states that legally all power lines must be fused/circuit protected within 18inches from the battery at the time when I wrote the test.Its not about Gm making that way..thats how the car will pass safety regulations when they were built.Im sure by now this has changed about the distance allowed.

Pocket making these harnesses has the option to use circuit protection or not.Despite his opinion on using them truly doesnt matter since he isnt not installing it in your car.Ultimately its not his responsibility to ensure it,but it is of the person wiring your vehicle or yourself if you doing this on your own.

If you doing it on your own then make things easy to trace/service.My original fuse links were down by the starter..and having as much heat plus their age made me not trust them.I upgraded the wire and used big maxi fuses by the battery.Can buy fuses anywhere over the counter.

Z28ricer

iTrader: (2)

While you state it isnt his responsibility, as he's not the one installing it, there lies the trouble, people sending in a pair of harnesses to be correctly and properly made into one usable harness are doing so because most of the time they dont have time or ability to properly do it, they are relying on the person doing so to do it properly/correctly.

Its not being done properly, and the people receiving the harness dont know any better, the error being a serious fire hazard, and the installer thinking that everythings done correctly, when the person modifying things doesnt even know what the protection is for, as he's already stated that he thinks its redundant with the fuses in the fuse block, and the power source protection isnt for anything of the sort.

Flip 2

iTrader: (1)

You can get a hi-pressure switch mount (and used switch) by getting that section of hard line off a car in a yard. Should make it easier for whoever builds your a/c lines. At least that's the theory I'm working with- LOL- got the parts, but not there yet.
IF you have a 4th gen compressor on your car- do NOT plug the compressor into the harness until the a/c system is operational. As explained to me, the compressor runs in a sleep mode when not in use. So, if you plug it in, you are running it.

ssantac

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