pedals for LS1/T56 manual swap - Third Generation F-Body Message Boards


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pedals for LS1/T56 manual swap

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Old 09-06-2018, 11:22 AM   #1  
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pedals for LS1/T56 manual swap

My first set up was with the 2000 brake and clutch pedal and the 89 gas pedal. I have the gas pedal dialed in as I made a bracket engine side that set the cable length where I could use a stock 4th gen cable... however I'm not happy with the clutch I only have an inch or so of pedal travel at the bottom where the clutch is disengaged (and not fully I don't think) I've bleed it repetitively and it isn't changing. (It worked fine in the donor car). The 89 was factory auto so this is a LS1 and manual swap.

Options
  • Change Clutch Master to adjustable (our cut and thread the shaft of the existing one and make it adjustable with a threaded hex tube and jam nuts)
  • change Pedals to 3ed gen style (I have a set ordered of ebay)
  • change the pedals to Hawks conversion (but to be honest they look like the 4th gen pedals has anyone tried these with a stock 4th gen master?)
  • modify the 4th gen pedals so the piviot point is closer to the firewall giving me more stroke.
  • move the attach point which will make the clutch harder to press

I think my preference is the 3ed gen pedals mainly so the brakes are tuned in (I would rather have the clutch malfunction than the brakes) -- who has had success with other options? Like I said I have ordered the parts to make the shaft length adjustable and a set of 3ed gen clutch/brake pedals.
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Old 09-07-2018, 07:30 PM   #2  
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Re: pedals for LS1/T56 manual swap

Did the slave cylinder potentially need a shim? That is key. And don't say the donor didn't have one,

Have you figured out what is different between donor and recipient yet?

Did your master cylinder install get installed in line with the support brace holes?
  • This is more helpful for a too-high pedal / higher-up release.
  • This is the same as your 5th point
  • To change nothing?
  • The pivot of the pedal? Or of the master cylinder attachment ?
  • A little. If you're healthy, it will not be objectionable.
  • How about a bigger bore master?
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Old 09-07-2018, 08:17 PM   #3  
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Re: pedals for LS1/T56 manual swap

Quote:
Originally Posted by jmd View Post
Did the slave cylinder potentially need a shim? That is key. And don't say the donor didn't have one,

Have you figured out what is different between donor and recipient yet?

Did your master cylinder install get installed in line with the support brace holes?
  • This is more helpful for a too-high pedal / higher-up release.
  • This is the same as your 5th point
  • To change nothing?
  • The pivot of the pedal? Or of the master cylinder attachment ?
  • A little. If you're healthy, it will not be objectionable.
  • How about a bigger bore master?
Clutch, slave etc are same as when I removed it from the donor.

Yes the master is lined up with the pedal mount holes. Was hoping others may have ran into this and might have insight. The pedals are a PIA to take in and out so hoping to borrowe others trial and errors.
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Old 09-08-2018, 07:40 PM   #4  
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Re: pedals for LS1/T56 manual swap

Pedal throw can be adjusted when using a Tilton master cylinder, like sold by Tick and Hawks. The slave cylinder must be properly adjusted regardless.
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Old 09-11-2018, 06:53 AM   #5  
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Re: pedals for LS1/T56 manual swap

I used the 4th gen pedals and they worked just fine. I made them work with the 3rd gen master cylinder. I have since upgraded to a Tilton master cylinder and for the $80 it was money very well spent.
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Old 09-11-2018, 08:01 AM   #6  
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Re: pedals for LS1/T56 manual swap

Which Tilton did you use? I'm fine with spending the money as long as it solves the issue. I don't want to over shim the slave and cause it to slip etc.

I actually didn't even separate the trans/engine when I yanked it out of the 2000 and put it in the 89. I bought the entire donor car and was able to drive it before disassembling it. The clutch felt good so I rolled the dice on it for now. I'm using everything from the donor, master, pedals etc. I did notice the angle of the firewall area where the pedals mount is different and that accounts for the factory master stroke being different as assembled in the 89. The firewall angles being different is why I had to make a throttle cable bracket to use the 4th gen throttle cable. I'm trying to fabricate everything so that wear items are off the shelf parts.

I bought a set of 3ed gen pedals and hardware to modify the master cylinder so I can adjust the shaft length. I spent last weekend welding in the exhaust and rebuilding the door hinges (I have the fenders off the car so it was easier to access now than later. Solving the clutch issue, buttoning up the AC wiring and looming the wires is all I've got left... so its close... so close.
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Old 09-11-2018, 09:21 AM   #7  
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Re: pedals for LS1/T56 manual swap

I think it is the same one that they use for the tick unit. I just wasn't going to pay an extra $275 for there bracket. I made my own out of scrap steel I had in a scrap bin. I used a factory 4th gen throttle cable, I may have tweaked the pedal vs make a bracket. How is your line to the slave cylinder from the master cylinder ? Is there a high spot that could trap air ? A lot of folks have problems bleeding the clutch on duramax's and that is the issue, the routing of the line. The bleeder is on the master not the slave. I rerouted the line to a constant incline and it bleeds like nobody's business.
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Old 09-11-2018, 10:08 AM   #8  
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Re: pedals for LS1/T56 manual swap

I'm pretty sure I have the air out of the system. I cut the hole so that the master lined up with the 4th gen pedal bracket... which also lined up with the factory punched cut out in the insulation.
The pedal bottoms out against the stop in the pedal assembly before it hits the floor, and before it fully strokes the master. Since the master isn't fully stroking it may not be fully bleeding, but it feels pretty solid. So its possible under the right conditions it would work but there is very limited room for error.

I thought about just welding a tab to the pedal arm and putting the connector an inch back from where it is, but that puts the pedal a tad to high. If I move the attachment vertically it will change the force required. The only way I see to get the 4th gen pedals to work and have the 4th gen master fully stroke without adding additional force is to move the pivot point closer to the firewall... though typing this I could try cutting off the internal stop so the pedal goes all the way to the floor...

Really I could just cut the insulation so its not between the pedal bracket and firewall and grind off the extra layer of metal on the bracket that would move the bracket in 1/4 inch which would probably be enough.

I'll try bleeding it again with the rear of the car in the air before I change stuff, which should make the high point of the master at the reservoir inlet, its pretty flat and not pitched up like the brake master if I recall right.

Last edited by Aviator857; 09-11-2018 at 10:20 AM.
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Old 09-11-2018, 09:36 PM   #9  
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Re: pedals for LS1/T56 manual swap

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Originally Posted by Aviator857 View Post
Which Tilton did you use?
I bought mine from Tick. http://www.tickperformance.com/tick-...-firebird-ls1/

The clutch is harder to bleed than it seems. I had to use a vacuum pump to pull air out the top because it just wasn't going to fully bleed by pedal. The nice thing about vacuum is the job is clean and you can work in comfort from the top.
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Old 09-11-2018, 09:54 PM   #10  
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Re: pedals for LS1/T56 manual swap

I used the Tick cylinder & it worked out well. I strongly recommend the remote bleeder as I tried the vacuum method & results were not as fast or effective as a good manual bleed. Trying to manually bleed without the remote bleeder is next to impossible unless you want to drill a hole in the floor for access.

I used the 4th gen clutch & brake pedals which seem to have worked out well.
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Old 09-11-2018, 10:00 PM   #11  
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Re: pedals for LS1/T56 manual swap

Right, vacuum bleed wasn't adequate by itself either.
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Old 09-11-2018, 10:22 PM   #12  
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Re: pedals for LS1/T56 manual swap


I am also a fan of the remote bleeder. Apparently I did not paint this before I installed it. I did trim a lot of excess from the 4th gen pedal assembly bracket. I also sourced my own linkage, I have seen some use left handed thread for one end of the adjusting rod. That is unnecessary, there is just a ball on the end of the adjusting rod behind the retainer plate.
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Old 09-11-2018, 10:32 PM   #13  
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Re: pedals for LS1/T56 manual swap




I do not remember if I wanted 45 or the 47 that I have.
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Old 09-11-2018, 10:35 PM   #14  
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Re: pedals for LS1/T56 manual swap



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Old 09-11-2018, 10:51 PM   #15  
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Re: pedals for LS1/T56 manual swap


I know that I had to massage the inner fender well a little bit, it seems that I still have a clearance issue. I do not know from experience, but I have read in other threads that there could also be minor clearance issues with the tick unit. The only reason I upgraded my master cylinder is because of the dead clutch pedal problem. It did function properly with the factory master it just did not like high rpm shifting. I owned and drove my donor car for 75,000 miles. It had that issue long before it gave up it's organs.
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Old 09-12-2018, 08:24 AM   #16  
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Re: pedals for LS1/T56 manual swap

Thanks guys.

91ls1t56 one thing I noticed is you don't have the heavy rubber/jute padding on your firewall, that in effect will move the pivot point of the pedals a little more than 1/4 of an inch closer to the firewall and solve the geometry issues. I wounder if anyone has had success keeping the padding between the firewall and the pedal bracket. Also is the 45/47 degree what Tilton recommends as the mount angle?

I'm trying to recall one of the car shows did a LS swap and used an adapter that allowed you to connect the GM hose with the pin to secure it on an AN fitting. Is that what you used here? I have a welder so if I go the route of a new master I'm tempted to make one, though its tempting to just pay the money and know I have all the parts in the box.

I spent this months car budget on exhaust and a new dash pad (classic industries had a labor day sale). So I may spend my time butting up everything else and circle back to the clutch. This and the steering shaft from Detroit should be the last of the things I need to buy for the car... well until I order the ford 9"
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Old 09-12-2018, 08:47 AM   #17  
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Re: pedals for LS1/T56 manual swap

91ls1t56 also where did you get the threaded hex rod and connector to make the shaft. I have a willwood kit I bought thinking of modifying the factory one with but the threaded hex rod isn't any where that long.

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Old 09-12-2018, 12:58 PM   #18  
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Re: pedals for LS1/T56 manual swap

Does anyone know the bore stroke on the 75 series Tilton? I see willwood has a similar one (260-10374) with a stroke of 1.12" and bore size of 7/8" Price is about the same so might not be worth the gamble since we know the Tilton works.
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Old 09-12-2018, 03:05 PM   #19  
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Re: pedals for LS1/T56 manual swap

The Tick unit comes with rod and adjuster that fits 4th gen pedals. Don't need to cobble together anything.

If you want to know specs then the best thing to do is call Tilton tech support. Talk to the people that actually know, not the people that might know.
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Old 09-12-2018, 07:15 PM   #20  
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Re: pedals for LS1/T56 manual swap

I do not know or remember where I got the threaded hex from. It is 1/2" stainless hex 6 1/2" long and I ordered it to match the rod on the master cylinder. I do remember that I drilled and tapped one end to accommodate the QA1 heim joint. Also I had to grind down one side of the heim joint a little bit so I could use the factory retainer clip to hold it onto the pedal. In one of the pictures above I show a little protractor, I put that up to the factory master cylinder to determine the angle.

Last edited by 91ls1t56; 09-12-2018 at 07:36 PM.
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Old 09-12-2018, 07:32 PM   #21  
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Re: pedals for LS1/T56 manual swap


This is the adapter you are looking for, it goes into the slave cylinder and allows you to connect a 3-an hose. There is the part number on the package summit/jegs has them. I had a local hydraulic shop that is also a brakequip dealer make me a real nice braided stainless hose. I do not have a quick disconnect though. The stroke of the master cylinder is determined by your adjustment. There is a spring inside of the brake/clutch master cylinders and nothing to limit how far the pedals come out. The jute padding there or not, will not effect the operation of the pedals.
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Old 09-12-2018, 07:37 PM   #22  
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Re: pedals for LS1/T56 manual swap

I do not know about the Willwood version, but the Tilton unit is rebuildable and they have kits for a few dollars.
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Old 09-12-2018, 09:25 PM   #23  
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Re: pedals for LS1/T56 manual swap

Wilwood is rebuildable - rebuild kit is 25 dollars or so. I see McLeod Racing has 139309 which seems to be the wilwood part with a bracket. I've emailed them to ask for details as it is only listed on summits site. That kit and the hydraulic line from them is ~$220 which is reasonable the more I think about the $330 for the Tick unit.

At any rate thanks guys I'll decide the direction I want to go and then report back results.
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Old 09-12-2018, 11:11 PM   #24  
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Re: pedals for LS1/T56 manual swap

I think some of the aftermarket units are no more that a regular master cylinder with the drill mod.
Do it right, do it once... buy the Tick. You can't hardly find them sale used because people keep them!
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Old 09-13-2018, 11:10 AM   #25  
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Re: pedals for LS1/T56 manual swap

right, I've seen several that are just modified stock units I know to avoid those.

Just for informational purposes the mcleod 139309 is ” Bore 1.2” stroke, they do have a camaro kit 139301 but its slightly smaller (13/16" bore) than Tick unit and cost the about the same.

So yes its either a brew your own using a 7/8" bore master with approximately 1.1" bore stroke, custom made bracket and linkage, and a $80-90 hydraulic line (or $20-30 to get the stock one changed at a hydraulic shop) So anyway you slice it the home brew will put you close or over to $200.

Also to add to the knowledge base for future searchers the 75-875u is a 1.1" bore stroke according to summit, the wilwood 260-10374 is 1.12 both are 7/8 bore.

I like to think by buying parts we encourage the aftermarket to support these cars but then again I don't want to waste money if there are other options.

Who knew getting the clutch tuned in would be the hardest part of an ls1 swap... though I bet its easier if you start with a manual car. And I'm picky so I will not put up with the pedal to high etc.
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Old Yesterday, 08:43 AM   #26  
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Re: pedals for LS1/T56 manual swap

Ok I purchased a rebuilt Tick unit (It was new but had an issue so the guy sent it in for repairs), I should have it in this weekend. It was enough of a discount that if need be I can replace the hydraulics and still be ahead on price.

One thing to note Tick states on their website they will not warranty the master for "Swap Applications" and I checked with them if this included using it in a 1989/thirdgen fbody since it is a direct bolt in. They confirmed that if its installed in a thirdgen fbody then the warranty is void. That is a lot of money for a part with no warranty.
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