When you click on links to various merchants on this site and make a purchase, this can result in this site earning a commission. Affiliate programs and affiliations include, but are not limited to, the eBay Partner Network.
At the moment, I already have a running '95 Cherokee 2-door 4x4, I'm trying to sell my '94 Camaro V6 daily driver to pay off the Jeep, and I'm still trying to find a blue '91-'92 GTA to be my daily.
I'm saving up for lift springs, as detailed in the above thread, I put away $ 51 last week. That's more than half enough for new rear coils.
My current focus is on trying my SM465 with 3.42:1 gears, and having NO MPG, or trying a 700R-4 with 4.30:1 gears.
But while doing spreadsheets for those, one idea leads to another, I get back online to rEsearch that, then I'm off on a tangent.
A Camaro will never really be a do-it-all, nor a crossover, whatever.
This morning I'm leaning toward Cooper Cobras, 235/70R15x7 front and 255/70R15x7 rear, with the 700R-4, a 350 V8, and starting with my 3.42:1 gears for MPG, then while driving that, save up for 4.10:1 gears for dirt roads.
The Cooper Cobras seem quasi-credible for dirt roads, looking at the treads, but are the sort of tire people expect to find on an old Camaro. The 31x10.50 all-terrains might pass for snow tires from behind, but from the side would advertise what I'm up to.
I have a 28-spline, low-mileage Gov-Lock for my 3.42:1 axle, which is why I'm not seriously considering a 2.73:1 rear with the SM465. Plus the shifter being too tall and too far forward, not having the clutch pedal, no torque arm provision, it hangs too low, but on the other hand, I do have a new 12" clutch, it's dead reliable, it's unbreakable, overheating is no worry, nor is slippage. So it's far more trustworthy than a mystery 700R-4 out of Pick-N-Pull.
With only a 15-gallon tank, MPG matters, and a NV4500 isn't happening. A skidplate for the 700R-4 would be easy. In fact, I'd extend it all the way to the rocker panels, from the front control arms to the rear trailing arms, except a cutout for the driveshaft, which will need to be re-tubed stronger in case it hits anything.
Oh, and I don't intend any high-speed jumping as seen in the pic below.
Cool, thanks!
Mine's a t-top, so I'm thinking about some roof reinforcement. Possibly welding in some bars that just clear the tops, that'll stay in when the tops are out.
Seems to me that just because I'll be taking it easy doesn't mean the car won't twist, and I'd rather not pop the windshield. Softer springs would help with that, but I'd rather keep the car up above whatever's on the trail.
Also occurred to me that it should be easy to get my wife to follow me, on the thinking that a 4x4 Jeep on 31" tires should easily follow anywhere this car could lead.
To me, a tube chassis plus a Camaro body isn't a Camaro, and while I may end up there, like the cars pictured, I'm not starting that way now.
streetfire.net, top gear us season3 episode 6, Monument to Moab in rental cars, especially 23 minutes in.
Was just cleaning out my shed, found I have 2.73:1 gears for an 8.8", so I may go with the SM465 after all. Time for more spreadsheets.
Thinking about tires, the Cooper Cobra GTs run a little small, and their tread depth is only 10.5/32", where typical A/Ts are closer to 15/32".
These would be a smarter 235/70: http://www.summitracing.com/parts/coo-50475/overview/
but no matching 255/70s.
I'm not sure about the tread depth but the Mickey Thompson Sportsman S/T is there new "all season radial".
This is the set on the rear of my car.
Having such a tread reaching over the sidewall would be beneficial for your application . If that does not work for you there's the monster at the bottom.
Last edited by Ron U.S.M.C.; 01-23-2016 at 05:57 PM.
Thanks! Comparing on Summit's website, the Cobra GTs have the exact same specs as the Mastercraft Avenger G/T, just slightly different looks. But the Coopers can be had cheaper through discount tire direct.
I measured my SM465, it hangs roughly 9" below the input shaft centerline, while the oilpan for a 350 V8 is more like 7.5", so it'd hang low. I wouldn't even worry about that 1.5" in a big K5 Blazer, and noone's answering my craig'slist ad for it, so I may unbolt the top cover for a test fit in the car.
So I see 2 likely build directions here:
(1) SM465, 8.8", 2.73:1, Traction-Lock, and A/T tires, 235/75R15 front and 31x10.50R15 rear
or
(2) 700R-4, 7.625", Gov-Lock, Cobra GT tires, 235/70 F and 255/70 R, start with 3.42:1 then try 4.10:1,
Ya know, with the general "flatness" of our cars underneath you could almost do a full under-body skid. Cut out some holes for your exhaust to dump out of and make a depression for the trans cross member and you'd be good. Might add some more rigidity too.
Depends on what you are looking for in terms of weight though, because a sheet of 1/8" steel that large would add a couple hundred pounds.
That's about what I had in mind, not worried about the weight.
I've spent hours reading tire reviews, studying pics of treads, some loaded up with mud, and thinking about what I really want with this car.
I want more dirt-road capability, minimal mud, though a little occasional mud may prove unavoidable, minimal sand, probably no dunes, probably no visits to the salt around old lake Bonneville, probably no sandstone.
This car can't crawl over much, no matter what.
The Cobra GTs make a lot of sense to me, considering the car, but I'm probably going with the A/Ts in the slightly larger sizes. More puncture resistance, deeper treads with bigger voids and some sidewall bite. Slightly more ground clearance, may last slightly longer, same cost.
The 700R-4 makes sense, but I'll probably do the SM465.
The 8.8 / 2.73:1 makes sense, but if MPG doesn't matter, then my favorite spreadsheet for the A/T tires and the SM465 is 3.08:1, so I'm thinking of trading the 3.23:1 gears out of my '94 Camaro, so I can try my Gov-Lock.
That leaves my only big expenses being the lift springs, a 350, and the tires. I even have a used Flowmaster 3" crossflow with tips.
If the 3.23s prove intolerable, for noise or MPG, ( or both ) or I break them, ( probable, with that 6.55:1 first gear ) then I may as well try the 2.73s since I already have them, and 8.8s can be built to hold 1500 HP.
I read a lot of good reviews about the Nankangs.
Now I just need a grand and some nice weather.
If you've looked then I apologize (can't remember). But the Cooper Discovery AT-3 (or AT-2. .or AT-1) might serve you well. Cooper tires are made in the USA, which is a plus.
I used to be all about buying American, but my credit card has a $125 limit, so I can't even look at any tire that costs more than that after adding shipping or tax, as the case may be. So buying locally is out.
The only 4 options remaining to me are a Firestone Winterforce UV 265/75R15 from Summit, which I don't want, or the 31x10.50R15 Nankangs, from Discount Tire Direct, either A/T or M/T for $115, or they have a Laufenn 31x10.5 for a dollar more.
I researched all 4 options, I'm leaning toward the A/T Nankang rather than the M/T, mostly because I can't find much about how the Laufenn works off-road. The Laufenn tread looks more Camaro-appropriate, as it would be seen from behind the car, IMO.
Gotcha. Yeah, I think that's a smart choice, unless you plan on seeing mud. . .deep mud. . .on every trail then I would go with the A/T's. They'll wear better and last you longer than M/Ts of the same tire.
A friend told me WalMart has Goodyear Wrangler Radials, the same ones they indroduced back in '85, for $82 each in the 235/75R15 size. With tax, that's still just $89 each, I'll probably go confirm it on my lunch break tomorrow.
The 9012 springs should lift the front by 3.5", struts permitting, assuming a front weight of 1690# per front tire. Seems heavy to me. So clearancing with my 4.5-pound ( weight, not UK money ) hammer with the new front tires and no front springs, then fit the 9012s.
If the stock rear weight is 580# per tire, then switching from 5665s at 750# per to 8302s at 800# per should still lift the rear by 7.75".
I assumed 750 because of my hitch, then 800 for extra fuel, Hi-Lift jack, shovel, etc.
I have thought about building my RS like that car to replace my Subaru below since I have it just sitting around. After looking into how the suspension was done on that car, it was outside my budget to build it properly to last, along with needing to source a cheap T56 and finding 15" rally wheels that would fit over 4th gen brakes that weren't $250 plus a wheel.
Slight sidetrack, but relevant, so let's discuss yours for a bit.
I don't see the need for 1LE brakes, or any other brake upgrade, for crawling along dirt roads, but for rally, IDK.
As for the T56, forget it, you don't need a T56, and they're over $1200. The NV3500 with the 4.02:1 first and the 0.73:1 fifth is just as strong, and has just as wide a spread of ratios, divide the ratio of the lowest gear by the ratios of the highest. If I could score a ZF S5-47 I'd adapt that. But instead of a T56, a '70s Super T-10 would suffice. The wide-ratio version found in the '82 Z28 was also used in the '80 with a 350. Heavier car, more torque.
If you insist on big brakes, there are lots of choices of off-road tires for 16" wheels, and 17s also.
I'm hesitant to risk aluminum wheels off-road, but since my '87 S-10 has an Explorer axle under it ( I put that there, did the swap ) I redrilled the shafts and fitted the 16x8s from a '95 Z28. On those I tried a pair of 245/75R16s I had, and I'm tempted to use those since DTD has 265/70R16 A/Ts for $93 delivered. I have a pair of ZQ8 ( S10 ) wheels that'd be right for the stock '86 axle.
For the front, plenty of choices in 235/70R16. But I'd want steel 16x7s.
Even on my Cherokee, I'd rather get some steel 16x7s for some 245/75s rather than sticking with my aluminum 15x7s, and if I can sell these for the cost difference, I will.
Oh, and back to my plans, I checked the weights of the iron SM465 and the aluminum 700R-4, the SM465 is 175#, a dry 700R-4 is 200#. Surprised me.
I've been running retread 235/75R15s on the rear of my E150 daily driver work van, from Treadwright, these have the Goodyear Wrangler tread design, because GY sold the molds when they introduced the RT/S. Then they got new molds when they reintroduced the original treads due to high demand, and poor reviews of the RT/S. Anyway, I haven't had them off-road, but they're excellent in the snow. I can get them for $55 + shipping, but a 350-powered third-gen is capable of more MPH than I trust retreads to. My van is probably limited to 98 MPH, I've never had it over 80.
For the transmission I was looking at a T56 so that it would still be "streetable" with an overdrive. The legs between services are upwards of a 100 miles so anything to help conserve gas during transits the better. Speeds on most events in a car with equalivent power to my car will easily be hitting 100+ so at least in my opinion would need more than the stock brakes and the 4th gen stuff is already on it. For wheels several companies make an incredibly strong so wheel that will survive anything but are expensive. We have seen steel wheels oblong the stud holes and seen cars loose wheels. On slower trails just out having a good time, all the above doesn't really come into effect. For rally, turning it into something like the pre runner inspired camaro is out of my fab skills when it comes to making a good long travel suspension that can take 60mph plus jumps are out of my realm as cool as it would be. Very interested to keep watching your thread.
I can't speak much to the transmission choice, but as far as the wheels and brakes go - you're adding a significant amount of spinning mass with the truck tires. Although not necessary now, I would say that you'd want to at least put in 'top of the line' OEM brake parts (similar to RonUSMC's build if you'd read that thread). I always advocate for brake upgrades when you go for larger tires on an offroad vehicle. Especially if you go with a steel wheel.
Is there a reason you want steel over aluminum? It sucks changing a steel wheel flat lol.
For the transmission I was looking at a T56 so that it would still be "streetable" with an overdrive. The legs between services are upwards of a 100 miles so anything to help conserve gas during transits the better. Speeds on most events in a car with equalivent power to my car will easily be hitting 100+ so at least in my opinion would need more than the stock brakes and the 4th gen stuff is already on it. For wheels several companies make an incredibly strong so wheel that will survive anything but are expensive. We have seen steel wheels oblong the stud holes and seen cars loose wheels. On slower trails just out having a good time, all the above doesn't really come into effect. For rally, turning it into something like the pre runner inspired camaro is out of my fab skills when it comes to making a good long travel suspension that can take 60mph plus jumps are out of my realm as cool as it would be. Very interested to keep watching your thread.
Look into the A833 from NewProcess. One version was used in Hemi 'Cudas back around '70, so it's strong and there are Hurst shifters. But the aluminum case version used in C10 chevys around '81 have about a 3:1 low and about a 0.73:1 OD.
Otherwise, there's a closer-ratio version of the NV3500 with a 3.49:1 first, the '94-up V6 Mustangs used a T5 with a 3.35:1 first, the Nissan FS5R30A from a Z32 is easy to adapt to a SBC, and can hold 600 HP. If you come across the R154 from a Supra, that's adaptable too.
Most of these can be found in Pick-N-Pull for $75. But not a T56.
I can't speak much to the transmission choice, but as far as the wheels and brakes go - you're adding a significant amount of spinning mass with the truck tires. Although not necessary now, I would say that you'd want to at least put in 'top of the line' OEM brake parts (similar to RonUSMC's build if you'd read that thread). I always advocate for brake upgrades when you go for larger tires on an offroad vehicle. Especially if you go with a steel wheel.
Is there a reason you want steel over aluminum? It sucks changing a steel wheel flat lol.
If the vehicle slips sideways into a rock, an aluminum wheel will break, a steel wheel will just bend. The weight difference isn't that bad.
And as off-road tires go, even a 31x10.50 is really tiny, not massive.
Fitting 12" brakes in 15" wheels isn't difficult, just don't use 1LE parts. Well, I'll probably use 1LE rotors, as the integral hubs are thicker, and use a larger outer bearing. But I sure won't use 1LE calipers, and I may have the rotor parts milled off the 1LE hubs for some thicker rotors. That '83 RX-7 I built last year, I did 11.75" x 32 mm front rotors with Brembo 4-piston calipers inside 15" aluminum wheels on the front, and the rears were 11.5" x 1" rotors with '84 WS6 calipers.
But I don't think I need all that. I had an '89 S-10 2WD 4.3 I towed a car with, going down a mountain the S-10 front rotors ( same as ours ) got so hot they were glowing orange but were still working. That's the value of good fluid that wasn't boiling.
So until I have a chance to drive it down a dirt road, my focus is on the lift, the skidplates, and the tires, not brake upgrades. If you want to try it differently, I'll be eager to follow similar build threads.
Rear shocks: I'm thinking Rubicon Express T3211B, at $50 each, they're twin-tube gas-charged with an eyelet lower and a stud upper, urethane bushings, 32" - 18.5" = 13.5" travel.
Shock boots aren't included, but are like $3 each, I'm thinking white, since I'll probably rattle-can the whole car white enamel.
Planning the 350, I insist on roller lifters so I don't have to worry about ZDDP, so I'm thinking GM's RamJet 350 / HT383 cam, and stock L69 / LB9 exhaust manifolds rather than headers. I don't need 300 HP.
I have a TPI plenum, I may try to piece together an L98 with a MegaSquirt controller. I like Edelbrock's EPS but it doesn't take a QJ.
Now I'm exactly one month from having to take my '94 Camaro off the road.
For a long time I've waffled on finalizing an engine and trans for this car. I've realized that anything that moves under its own power is better than non-running, and I just scored a bellhousing from an LB9 IROC-Z.
So that's the final nail in the coffin for a 454, which I've always wanted, but never wanted enough to make it a reality. I bought a couple, but never got either one both installed and running.
I'm likely to buy an L31 or at least a TBI 350 short-block assembly topped with 305 heads, settle for an LO3 cam for now, settle for whatever exhaust manifolds I can score and will fit ( for now ) and as much as I'd like to use my TPI plenum, I'll probably finish it like an LG4 for now. It'll cost more in the long run, to do this settling rather than just buying the final parts, but this is what I can barely afford now.
Some years ago I did an 84 Camaro LG4, swapped a late-'70s 350 in with a Performer EGR and a Summit K1102, 700R-4 with a stock converter, 3.42:1, 235/60R15s, but stock LG4 exhaust manifolds, cat, cat-back. So once running I drove it home, ran surprisingly strong in the 2000-4000 RPM range, but once home, standing on both pedals, it was all it could do to break traction, which was disappointing, and a negative impression.
Since then I did a 350 in an '86 S-10 2WD, it had flat-tops but the 1.72" intake valves. I used Patriot shorties, Hooker mandrel-bent 2.25" duals through Summit chambered muffs, an Elgin 208/208 420/420 cam, a 700R-4 with a stock converter, 3.42:1 rear, and 245/60R15s, it was unbelievably torquey from idle through 4000, and would break traction from a stop without touching the brakes, or from a 5 MPH roll. very positive impression.
Well, now I have another 3.42:1 axle, and a 700R-4 seems a more likely find than a T5 with the 2.95:1 first, plus I already have a couple of torque-arm tailhousings for 700R-4s. I have 225/60R15x7s, and there's no high-flow, low-cost y-pipes for the cheap shorties, which would require Hedman's Air Injection Reaction tube kit, so I'm leaning toward Dorman exhaust manifolds for an '87 IROC-Z 5.7L, and Walker makes a y-pipe for the same, not mandrel-bent, but affordable and stock-looking, for a single 3" cat. I'm probably doing that, so I guess it's the K1102 again. I'm hoping this time I can fix the torque problem with a lot more initial spark advance.
I really can't afford Chevy's Performer EGR Vortec intake manifold, so I'm hoping to score some '87 LG4 / '88-'92 LB9 heads, or at least some 601( ? or is it 602? ) castings. Then I wouldn't need the rare '87 LG4 intake manifold, or the costly Edelbrock 3706.
Since the legal ZZ4 conversion didn't require EGR, I'm tempted to try a PFS-52007 on Vortecs, or a Weiand 8126 on LB9 heads, or Summit's 226008 on the 60x heads.
I'd like to just find a complete L31/700R-4 in a C1500 and take the whole thing, and IF I can score the EFI and PCM, I'll try to get that through emissions.
Planning done.
Where'd you get the S-10's 350? Those trucks are crazy light in the back, I wouldn't put too much stock in how it performed vs the 84 Camaro, kinda apples to oranges.
All my engines either came in the vehicles I bought, or I got them at salvage yards like Pick-N-Pull, except my LSxs, my burnt 5.3 was from PNP on 1/2-price day, it was a '99, but my '01 LQ4 came from LKQ, and both of my '01 4.8s came from South Bountiful Auto wrecking.
S-10s are lighter in the tail than Camaros, but getting S-10s to hook is easy. Just fabricate your own copies of the Cal-Tracs bars. Saves well over $100.
So I now have exactly $800 to get this running, plus I also have 2 new 215/65R15 snow tires I just scored for $40 from a PepBoys clearance sale, plus I have a dozen new rattle cans of blue enamel. First up will be a Vortec 350 and a transmission, then things like a headlight switch, a replacement gauge cluster, etc. Pics to follow. Deadline is the end of 2016.
And I doubt funds will permit a cam swap, especially keeping the roller lifters, but I sure want to do a cam before everything's all together. Cam swaps are a PITA once it's a running car.
It's a shame you aren't closer to KY, we have a huge swap meet this weekend and I'm almost positive that you could get everything you're needing and still walk away with money in your pocket.
So I've settled on the SM465, since it can't leave me stranded, I already have it, and it may hang a little low, but lots of 4x4 guys have banged them into rocks, they never break open.
I found one old thread about swapping one, it wasn't much help, and it never got finished, so I started my own thread.
I am doing a cam, probably a Summit 224/234-114 HF, should pass an emissions test, should hit 400 real HP, seems reasonably well matched to Vortec 350 heads. Seems to be the most power per dollar.
While I had all that cash in my pocket, I started looking for a running donor vehicle, preferably with a 350 and a 700R-4. I found a 2WD '89 van, for $450, but the guy never got back to me about a test-drive. Meanwhile, I found a '69 Opel Kadett B LS Coupe Rallye for $300, and bought it. So I joined the Opel forum, but those guys are so negative and closed-minded. On here, we get an occasional teen who's that way, but on there, it's nearly everyone.
So I'm not sure what's next, but whatever it is, it will have to be after I replace the head gasket on the minivan in the driveway. Once that's done, then I can get back to something fun.
OK, I still have the Camaro, I still have the stock 15x7 wheels, I still have new tires, I still just need a drivetrain. That's still a go.
The '99 Caravan 2.4 isn't bad, it has 150 HP if you rev it, it's great on gas, but when the 3-speed transaxle was replaced, it got a v6 torque converter, so it's horrible off the line.
The Opel is getting a V6 / 4L60E transplant, a GM 7.5" S-10 rear axle, and the front brakes off the S-10 also. So I'll try to give it my 14x6 steelies off the S-10, I have near-bald 205/70s for the rear, used 185/65R14s for the front, and I'll hope to fit a new set of 185/55R14s. At least on the front, the rear may get a pair of 215/60R14s.
But if that doesn't work, It'll be the 16x8s off my '94 Camaro, maybe 215/35s for the front, maybe 225/50 rear.
Anyway, I'll be getting the new tires on the '86 Camaro ASAP
Since I live 95 miles from where I keep my Camaros, I can't make real progress that often. But I am getting eager to try my 245/75R16s on the rear, probably next saturday.
Meanwhile, I found fresh inspiration, not sure whose it is, but here it is:
I'm feeling so impatient to go do something, anything, even just the half-**** paint and the non-Baja-ish tires. I don't know why, but I don't want to give up on the dirt-roads aspect of this, but what I have for tires I can run on it is some Ohtsu-made copies of Falken Ziex 225/60R15 directionals for the front, which are only 25.35" dia and right around 7" of actual tread width, and Hankook I-Pike Winter 215/65R15s for the rear, which I measured those treads myself also, they're 7 1/16", which about matches Hankook's claimed 7.1", so I guess their claimed 26.1" is close also.
All 4 are new.
But what I keep coming back to is Cooper Cobra G/T 235/70R15s for the front, and General Grabber AT2 255/70R15s for the rear.
I found a good webpage for finding dirt roads: https://www.trails.com/stateactivity.aspx?area=14135
10 months ago I was a single guy near age 40. Now I have a wife and 3 teens. So hanging onto the funds I set aside for this is proving difficult, even without buying anything for the '69 Opel family project car.
My wife calls this a selfish indulgence, I see it as necessary to my sanity. She has her own equivalent, anyway.
But it seems I'll never again have more than $200 at a time for this, and probably never more than $35 per month. I can commit that much.
My Jeep has began doing the so-called death wobble, and it gets really bad gas mileage, we want to trade it for a Suburban. So either way, I don't need the Baja aspect I can't afford.
I'm probably going to keep my S-10, do the 4.8 / SM465 I started swapping into it, let it keep the 245/75R16 rears, give it some 235/70R16 fronts, and leave it a Pre-runner.
I happened across some wheels my entire family likes, for the Opel, but they only come in 4-lug. That inspired Mustang II front spindles / brakes, so I was researching the rear axle situation, which is how I happened across what I wish I could do to this Camaro someday: The '98-up Trooper axle. It only comes in 4.30:1, but it's the strongest of all SF axles.
Also not sure a lifted Camaro can go anywhere it would benefit from having a crawl ratio, stick or automatic. OTOH, with 255/70R15s and 3.42:1 gears, it should be capable of 30 MPG @ 55 MPH.
I'll keep doing weekly checks of all the cheapest websites for tires, watching for sales on 235/70R15s and 255/70R15s.
We posted on an off-road website for input on gearing, and got little help before they started bashing and flaming, but a 700R-4 would be the best choice if it wasn't so unreliable. Swapping the complete rear axle assembly is about the same cost as just changing the ring and pinion correctly, and I was seriously considering the '98-'02 Isuzu Trooper corporate 12-bolt, it's the strongest semi-float axle there is, but the 4.30:1 gearing is all wrong for an SM465 and tires under 90" circumference.
Decided I may as well nicen up the wheels, wash with steel wool, re-spray with Argent silver, if it's available. I Googled it, Wal-Mart has a close-enough ( for me ) Dupli-Color acrylic enamel for $7, I'll try it and post pics of my results.
The trim rings are available, dunno about the center caps, but whichever way this car goes, these wheels and tires are only temporary anyway. Still, I want it to always look like this car is taken care of.
So i have sold this t-top '86, since i bought a nicer hardtop red 86 lg4 camaro, and i have been driving a lot of dirt roads lately. My jeep is on worn-out 235/75r15 highway tires, has standard differentials, not locking nor limited-slip, not lifted, has 3.55:1 axles, and has no way to hold first gear. Every single dirt road i have taken it on i have completed in 2wd with no traction problems. I just don't like the way it is geared.
Anyway, i am once again considering 235/70r15s for all 4 corners of my third gen, with a traction diff, and probably a 4- something axle ratio with the 700R-4.
01-22-2016, 08:50 AM
haha.