How hard is it to break into the 10's with a N/A 406 sbc in a somewhat street car? Right now I have a nicely built 406 shortblock with some srp high compression pistons and a completely forged bottom end. I have a Performer RPM manifold and a chokeless 750DP carb, but how big do I need to go as far as heads and a cam? What about stall speed? My goal is to hit 10's with this car and keep it streetable and N/A.

 

well if you're keeping it NA you're going to need good flowing heads and a pretty big cam, Some AFR eliminator's and a solid roller in the 250-260* duration and .600+ lift. that manifold wont get you to the 10's you'll need a victor junior or similar.

 

It doesn't require any exotic parts to get into the 10's with a streetable N/A 406 but your parts have to be well matched and tuned. Don't forget all that power won't do you any good if you don't get traction, your suspension setup becomes much more critical at that power level too. I'm almost into the 10's with my pump gas 383, I have the mph but need some new tires and it should be there. It should be very solid into the 10's with a better torque converter next spring. Check out my signature for my combo, it actually drives pretty well on the street too.
Like WheelsUp84z said, you will need a good set of heads(AFR, Dart, Brodix ect) that are fully ported with 215-220cc intake runners. Keep the compression around 11:1 if you want to use pump gas. Get a decent size solid roller cam (250-260's dur@.05, .600+ lift), call several manufactures to get recommendations for your exact combo. You will be much better off with a single plane intake like a Vic Jr with the RPM range you will be in. A 850-950DP carb would be a better match, 750 is a little small.

 

I know I need some good flowing heads. I was thinking about the Dart pro1's or Vic jr. heads. How about a weiand team g manifold? I just picked out my cam yestarday it's a comp cams retro-fit hyd. roller Magnum cam with 244/244 duration @.050 and .600/.600 lift with 1.5 rockers and I'm going to use 1.6 which brings max lift to about .640. with a 110 lsa. I'm going to be buying a lot of suspension parts from Spohn this winter including a whole tubular k member and everything.

 

That camshaft isn't going to get you into the 10's naturally aspirated.

It takes some good power to run in the 10's. You are going to need a great flowing head out of the box, the Vic Jr and Dart heads aren't going to cut it out of the box.

You want a cnc ported head like an AFR or something similar that flows at least 300 cfm @.600/.700 and 200+ cfm on the exhaust.

After flowing my Dart R series 220cc heads as well as a friend's stock and ported Dart 230's, I am not impressed with the out of the box flow numbers from the Dart Pro 1 series heads. I think AFR's are a much, much better deal considering the amount of money it takes to make a Dart head flow like an AFR does out of the box.

 

I don't think that cam is what you want to get into the 10's, not saying it can't be done but it wouldn't be my first choice. Hyd. roller cams tend to not want to rev above 6k, unless you want to spend big money on a rev kit. I would definately suggest a cam like this or similar:
Lunati Voodo Solid Roller 60134
Advertised Duration IN/EX: 285/293
Duration @ .050 IN/EX: 255/263
Gross Valve Lift IN/EX: .600"/.600"
LSA / ICL: 110/106
Valve Lash IN/EX: 016/016
RPM Range: 3000-7200

unknown_host, is right about the heads. Don't expect out of the box Darts or to be enough but they respond very well to porting. Invest in some CNC ported heads if you want out of the box performance or talk to your local head porting guy and see how much it would cost to get a set of heads ported and weigh your options that way. I have about $800 in port work done to my Pro 1's to get them to flow over 300cfm to give you an idea.

 

Well I decided to call AFR today and they explained everything about their heads to me so I'm leaning towards them, I just have to pick out the right intake cc. So a hyd. roller cam isnt good for a serious street/strip car? I'mnot sure how a solid roller would do on the streets thats why I wanted a hyd. roller. I've heard some really good things about the Voodoo cams, know anyone thats running one and how they like it?

 

Theres nothing wrong with a hyd. roller for a street/strip car but if are wanting 10's, solid roller is by far the best choice. If you wanted mid 11's or slower hyd roller would be good choice. To get into the 10's you need the high rpm power that the solid cam gives you.
The Voodo cams are about the same as the Comp. XE series, I've heard a lot of good things about them. For the best results you may want to have a cam custom ground to match your combo, especially if you have your head flow numbers.
I was hesitant to run a solid roller on the street too after hearing all the horror stories about constant valve lash adjustments. Its really not bad at all, you don't have to do much adjustment as long as your poly locks are holding and you aren't getting any excessive wear. I check my valve lash 2-3 times a year, I've only had to make very minor adjustments. If you are worried about the solid cam being ok in street driving then you can get the lifters that have the special oil grove for increased oiling. I wouldn't want a solid cam in a daily driver but for a weekend cruiser street/strip car they aren't bad at all.

 

i drive mine all the time. and i have had no problems. i guess it's been 2 years since it's been on the street. i use comp cam 12-773-8 with 1.6 rockers and use a stud girdle. you need one of those no matter what.

 

Getting into the 10's will really depend on your race weight.

Estimating a typical 3500 pound race weight for a street car, you're going to need to get 521 HP to the wheels to hit 10.99. Now a more gutted out, lighter car of 3200 pounds race weight will only need to get 476 HP to the wheels to hit 10.99. Might not sound that hard but the average SBC NA engine barely gets 350-400 to the wheels. Think of a normal NA engine and not a race engine. They're lucky if they can make 1 HP per cubic inch of flywheel HP. A good 406 may make 400 flywheel HP but you need to get more than that to the wheels, do it on pump gas and stay streetable. The lighter you can make the car, the easier it is to do.

If I wanted to run faster, I'd yank the engine out of my car and drop it into an altered. Go from 3000 pounds to around 1500 pounds. My engine could push a 1500 pound altered into the high 7's.

 

Well right now the car is basically stripped of everything not needed except the seats and the rear ones are comming out soon. I'm swapping over to basically a full Spohn suspension over the winter, K member and everything so that should lose some weight too. Swapping my engine from castiron to aluminum heads will benefit along with the aluminum driveshaft that I have. My compression right now is about 12:1 with 76cc heads so if I drop down to the 66cc AFR heads my compression will be close to 13:1 if not higher so no matter what 93 octane wont cut it. I just want it streetable to where I can drive it to cruises and go out with my buddies on the weekends with our cars, and then be able to go to the track and pull off 10's. I know I'm going to need a vaccum canister for the cam I choose. I know a guy that does that with his BBC 70 chevelle but then again thats a bbc not a sbc.

 

oh trust me, you will need a vacuum canister with any cam over 250*.. my 294S cam i used to have(248*@.050) would need the motor to get HOT to get enough vacuum to brake normal.. but it could never lock the brakes on the line lock.. i would always push one side, if not both sides.. and another thing, the 12:1 is not going to cut it on the street.. how big are the domes on the pistons?? jeez.. 12:1 with 76cc heads.. thats huge.. on pump, you should be at MAX 11.5:1..

 

well with you're 13:1 you could always look to run E-85 as an alternative, with about a 102-103 octane rating it should do fine. As for the voodoo cams, i'm runnin the biggest hydraulic one they have (241/249 @.050 .525/.546 with 1.5's) with 1.6 rockers and a rev kit (only spinning to 6200 rpms but i have it just in case) and im hoping for mid 11's on motor. with the more duration and lift on the exhaust side it happens to make a great cam for nitrous.

 

See I dont mind running on a higher octane, I just want the car to have some kind of streeability. I'm not sure of what cc the dome is or anyhting but from what I can tell when I see them they are huge and I did a compression check and it came out to 12:1. Maybe I'll just go solid roller, I've heard that you don't really have to adjust it ever week like in the old days so maybe I'll get a decent one with a stud girdle and everything. How much lift is acceptable if the springs on my heads are rated to .670 max, Like how much clearance should I give them to be safe?

 

i would say .650 lift would be fine, you might get the whole .670 lift out of them but i'm one of those "rather be safe than sorry" type guys...i hate ruining brand new stuff.....been there done that. Also when working with dome pistons and high lift cams, you MUST make sure you have enough piston-to-valve clearance. And if running any sort of stroker motor to make sure the rods dont hit cam lobes either.

 

I dont plan on running any stroker kit anytime soon but I do know I have stock 400 length rods so I should be able to get away with a higher lift cam and if not then I'll have the pistons notched for clearance.

 

You don't need 521 HP at the wheels to go 10s! Flywheel you will need about that much in a 3500 lb car. Mine weighed 3440 with approx 540 Flywheel went 10.87 @ 126.
Combo was 11:1 406, afr 195 cnc ported heads 280 cfm, mini ram, 3.73s and super streetfighter converter in the stock th700.
Could still get over 20 on the hwy. That was on pump gas, has also gone 10.0 @ 133 on pumpgas with a 150 shot. Cam was 242/242 solid just under 600 lift.
Its all about being effecient! keeping car at peak power and using it!

 

So with more compression, bigger heads and cam and a good intake my car should deffinately be able to break into the 10's.

 

it better..

 

I know that my stock 10bolt wont handle the abuse but what about my 3.73 gear selection? I think I can get by with 4.10's but I dont wanna go too steep for astreet/strip car.

 

4.10's too steep for street?!?! come on.. i got 4.30's.. LOL dont listen to me, i got the WIDE 5th gear option from g-force.. 0.59:1.. its really nice with the 4.30's.. at 55mph, i'm at 1800rpm..

i would say just stay at 3.73's till you reach 10's.. if its not enough, then you move to 4.10's.. or you can go the other way.. 4.10's then if its too much, then move down.. but that might add time..

 

You know, you could just go with the choices that you've been thinking of and using A LOT more cubic inches...

usually people go way too radical for what they need for their goals, you seem to be trying to go the other way, which will make for a more streetable car but you won't go as fast as you want.

 

Should left my sig for my old engine, the pump gas 388 that went 10's through the mufflers and air cleaner in street form running 92 octane and weighed over 3557lbs at that time. It can be done, and it honestly boils down to making the entire drivetrain work together effeicently...the old school method of keep throwing big this and big that at it hoping it'll force you to go fast is stupid and is why the smart guys are running as fast with less engine...but it takes more money since your balancing out the entire driveline to work with the engine...not just throwing a bunch of big stuff at the engine.

my 388 was built with 12.5:1 hyper slugs, AFR210 as cast design, vic jr with 2" open spacer, Bullet solid roller cam .621/.621 lift, 106LSA installed at 102, and 255/262 actual duration (excellent power brakes with use of vacuum canister). ran a TH400 with 10"TCI convertor that flashed to 5000rpm on the hit, 4.11 gears and 28" rear tires. It broke into the 10's, but was tuned for bracket racing (meaning VERY lean) and I never tried a on kill pass with good air. I checked lash weekly cuz I raced it and had to to compete, rarely were they out of adjustiment.

Do you want to "break into" the 10's? or do you want to run 10's consistantly....BIG difference by about 50-75hp to account for nasty summer air and the effect on performance it has...you could run easily in the 10's in the spring/fall...but summertime would probably drop into the low 11's.

Like mentioned above...start with some AFR's and be done, the flow numbers advertised by Dart/Brodix are tainted....they use a larger bore on the flow bench to really inflate the numbers for advertisement...if you've seen pro 1 #'s in person on a bore that you would run them on....your not far off from just running vortec heads...seriously, granted they have alot of material for working over, but there's another $1K for port work to get a out of box set of darts to flow what afr's do....

with a 250/260 range duration, at your current compression you will have enough bleed off in cylinder pressure coupled with your aluminum pieces to squeek in pump gas...these heads do not require much timing at all to run the best...bettig you'll be in the 32-34* range so long as you run a good 92 octane you'll be fine, I actually ran faster times on 92 octane than I did on 110....but 110 smelled soo much better LOL!!

 

Well I dont want to go with more cubes right now. My goal is to be consistantly in the 10's if I go too radical and go faster then I still dont mine but I want to build a consistent 10 second car. I know I want to keep it streetable that why I am on here asking what it takes to break into the 10's and maintain some kind of level of streetablility. I dont want to be stopping at every gas station to be filling up.

 

You’re fooling yourself… A BIG big block and even a medium/smallish small block setup to run 10’s NA are both going to get equally awful gas mileage.

To be realistic you’re looking for a well matched combination that makes around 550hp, nothing is going t o be tame and there won’t be much sized like it would be on a normal, well matched street car. Hell, thinking about it, you could actually get back into that range with a 600+ cid engine block and would probably see double digit gas mileage.

 

seems to me that you're asking too much out of this motor. More cubes doesnt mean bad gas mileage...and i though you didnt care about running pump gas....at $6.00+/gal for race gas i highly see it getting much street time. I think you need to re-think you're plans for this car. You're going to have to make some sort of comprimise somewhere. If you want 10's on a streetable setup, the more cubes will make it easier. Otherwise if you want less cubes and a less radical setup that gets "good" gas mileage maybe you should look into a power adder.

 

I agree, I think a power adder is your best option with your listed goals. A friend of mine just picked up a 2002 Mustang GT with a blower and cobra heads on it. It has bested 10.57 @ 130+ and gets 18 mpg on the freeway with the A/C on.

I am in the process of building a fast street car, and I am worried with my radical set of parts that I still won't touch the 10's. My setup is:

377ci, 11.8:1 compression, Solid Roller 262/266@.050 .665/625, Jesel Shaft rockers, Pro Topline 235cc heads, single plane intake and a big carb.

Starting it today btw .

 

sounds like a stout setup, that motor combo should be in the 10's with the proper stall/gear/suspension tune and the car on a diet. Good luck with it!

 

I honestly don't mind not running pump gas and I dont care what mileage I get. By streetable I meant something with a cam thats not gonna stall out at evey light and a converter that wont pull through the brakes and stuff. Thats what I mean by streetable, something that I'm not going to hate driving on the street. If it costs me extra for gas then I dont mind but I dont want a car with a 5k stall and a .710 lift cam and 5.13 gears on the street.

 

the high stall will do the opposide of pull through the brakes, i drove a 9.5:1 408 ci/th-350/4.10gear/4000 stall car on the street with a solid roller cam 252/260 dur and .630/.648 on 108lsa with 28" et streets. it didnt run 10's on motor but with a 225 shot via a direct port is was around 10.0's (estimated as i only had 1/8 and 1000 ft tracks to go to at the time) it ran 6.4-6.5 depended on the conditions

 

Depending on the weight of the car, you could get by with a 10" convertor like I did. yes, it flashed to 5K, but driving around town it acted no differently than your daily driver. It did'nt get stupid until your right foot got stupid, then it was funtime. Too many folks have serious misconceptions on torque convertors and how they work and how they actually perform, thorw the commonly misconstrued-advertised stall speed is what it has to get to before the car moves...all jiberish, alot more to it than that. convertor talk is a whole article unto itself, just know you can get high stall speed and still retain daily driver type qualities until it's time to get stupid.

you wont need a monster valves spring eating cam either....dont get all big heads, monster cam on us, the heads and cam need to work with the rest of the engine combination, and then you need the convertor, gearing, tire size to match....the 60's method of big big big is soo outdated it sick, today's cars are about combination, combination, combination....the ability to run max effort without making it a true max effort combination. it can be done, I've been there with less cubes, a few little tweaks here and there and the 388 pump gass would've been a 3557lb street driven solid 10 second ride no problem...but I bracket race so i had to go a different way with my tune since max effort dont mean a thing, but i still oppped off 10's back to back on a race tune so it is possible and yes, it can be docile....i retained pwr brakes with use of a vac can, everybody tghat drove it could not believe it ran what it did and was soo easy to drive in town/hwy.

will you get good gas milage....depends on your right foot, I averaged 2mpg with my junk per tank, but most was being stupid, never saw a need for myt toy to ever impress me with mpg as long as I got smiles per gallon

 

Trust me I'm not one to just throw parts on my car and try and get power. Thats why I'm on here to get peoples opinions and facts. I don't care about the gas mileage I just dont want a car that I'm going to hate driving on the streets. I want to be able to run 10's at the track and then be able to enjoy myself and drive the car home and be able to mess around with my buddies.

 

My old 388 was exactly what you were looking for, a fw tweaks here and there and it'd a been a solid pump gas 10 second ride that was still very docile. I do admit with the new 427sbc I have/had before that lost a crank, it was easily a low 10 second ride, but streetablity sucked compared to what i was used too. choppy, had 2 different and completely wrong convertors so they were waaay too loose, super loud even though it was the same exhaust i've run for yrs in front of the other engines....i agree with others, if you just want to go fast for sake of going fast...add a turbo or s/c and be done....easier to build a milder motor that gets with the program that way as opposed to being n/a....ya kinda have to start getting radical when you want to run in the 10's consistantly even when it's super nasty out in the summer muck air, or have an extremely light car.

 

Josh, i didnt know you hurt the new motor already? must have missed that post. I know you had some issues on the initial dynoing of it because of the wrong bearings.

 

That engine just was'nt meant to be, just a case of everything literally going wrong no matter what a guy did. I tried 2 convertors behind it and they both sent the engine directly to 7000rpm after releashing the transbrake button, so it was anybodies guess on where to shift the thing, the second convertor i tried was better, but still went to 7K on the hit. I took it out only intending to make a few passes, got talked into racing that day so said wtf. ended up winning saturdays race and at that point has 11 passes on it. got talked into coming out to sundays race and second time shot, felt/heard the boom. popped the hood and alas, another snapped off crank snout.

here's some pictures, the black engine was latest 427, the orange engine parts was the old 388...kinda freakey huh? 2 completely different engine orange was all factory cast with 1800+passes, 427 was all forged high dollar stuff with less than 15 passes....only shared item was lower crank pulley.

click here for pics

 

I thought you were talking to me at first because my name is Josh too. I've heard things about 400's overheating, how true is it?

 

this is my first 400 block, but it's a dart block so i'm sure they changed coolant stuff along with everything else they improved over oem design. but this motor never got over 180* and neither did the 388. All I run is a Howie 31x19 aluminum radiator and dual electric fans (oem type that came on these cars) along with a proform electric water pump and a water restrictor instead of a thermostat. can honestly say since i upgraded the cooling system i actually have a hard time building heat in the engine.

 

maybe its time to invest in something that the blower guys do and go with a bbc crank snout on a sbc crank. i know guys running f1's and f-2's and dont shear as many crank snouts as you do NA!

 

Well, there is some things I've been finding out:
1. i generally have bad luck

2. I probably should've never ran that lower pulley set-up, big factory steel pulley, probably weighs 7-10lbs. think about an engine that you hold at 7K for 10 seconds with a huge weight hanging off the snout, that is probably not balanced and gets essentric....easily see how that could start the madness.

3. pretty sure engine builder screwd me on the balance as well. he screwed me on a bunch of other things, and he told me he had to clearance rods for cam after inital cam install and the engine was ready for pick up that day he told me he started clearancing them...hmmmmm

4. talked with a reputable shop up north i bought my heads through has been working with me on fixing this disaster, when it first happened he was suprised and said he could count on one hand how many times he's seen that in person, and it was one of those things he usually heard about but never dealt with. I called after I broke the engine down to see extent of damages and found out
a. he has 3 engines up there with snapped off crank snouts-2 callies and 1- cola
b. he has 4 engines from the guy that originally built my 427 in his shop, 2 getting rebuilt and 2 getting checked out and he told me he did'nt want to spread rumors, but there is'nt anything right inside those other engines that dyckhead built that screwed me outta my money.

5. I spoke with Brooke over at Callies and asked WTF would cause this, we're gonna send it in to have it looked at by Callies regardless, but he told me all these bigger stroked motors should really be running BB snouted cranks...i think that's just a ploy to upsell since there is no way there should be that much stress on the snout (provided i used a race type pulley and not the huge chunk of steel oem pulley) only bad part is gettingg a bbc snout crank and all other items to fit/work with it, that's an additional $1600 on top of normal cost for a standard lower end....if i was running a bunch of stuff of the crank, maybe i could justify it...but i just run an alternator (will be switching to mini alt. and block hugger brackets this next time though.)

We'll see what happens next time around, should've taken the engine to this place i'm dealing with now in the first place.