billsfirebird

iTrader: (1)

Okay, I think I've made up my mind on what I want to do with my Iron Duke.

Now I KNOW it will be a whole lot easier and cheaper to build up a 350 and I don't really want this thread to turn into a debate on why I should just drop a V8 into it. I plan on making this a somewhat respectable show car and I want to be different and somewhat unique.....

I want to install a turbo system. I was talking to a guy at a car show I attended who had a turbo setup installed on his car. I asked him about it and he mentioned that with most turbo set ups there is almost always a full custom install required. His car had to be completely custom installed.

He mentioned a list of all the parts required for a turbo and just finding someone that is skilled enough in fabricating all the piping.

Any suggestions or helpful hints that I should keep in mind to make this project a reality?

What about the motor, do I need to strengthen the internals or bottom end. I don't want to run a huge amount of boost. Just something that can help out the ol duke and be a real conversational piece.

Now I know there is a lot of imports running a turbo on their 4cyl why can I get one for mine? (Trust me Im not going to turn my car into a F&TF wanna be. Keeping is stock looking, no funky painted panels or fat fart pipes.)

later,
bill

docta doom

yeah you can pretty much turbo an alligator if you want, you just have to have the drive and the money. you're probably gonna want DFI first off. that will help you to keep from blowing stuff up. research how turbos work (google is great, a really good book is Forced Induction Tuning: a guide to supercharging and turbocharging by A. Graham Bell). that book has a lot of the stuff you'll need to know and i suggest you read it before you do anything. good luck

B4Ctom1

I think a turbo iron duke is an awsome idea but the compression must be lowered (yours is like 11:1 according to the manuals Ive seen)

billsfirebird

iTrader: (1)

Why would the compression have to be lowered...how would you do something like that? Is the block itself good enough to take about 8 shot of boost?



docta doom:

thanks for the tip on the book.

B4Ctom1

compression is critical. it is usually done with better pistons, with the plan that there would be boost.

Icepack212

Awesome idea! I'd like to see that project progress....maybe you can even put some nitro in that Duke!

ontogenesis

i saw a site not too long ago and i can't remember what they were doing to get their results, but they were putting iron dukes on hotrod style dragsters and running fast runs (front wheels off the ground), i believe the guys raced at coles county dragway in illinois....

B4Ctom1

yes but those are probably the "real" iron dukes. there are some differences between the late and the original. This doesn't take away from our "iron duke" because it is do-able too. It enjoys some success in cirlce track racing against the ford 2.3 liter. It has become more popular because some rules at circle tracks specifically ban the iron duke but since ours is not an iron duke by definition it can still be used. this has caused some performance parts to sprout up for them, just like the performance parts for the ford 2.3, I think some research could turn up stroker cranks and pisons or rods, mebe even heads.

83 Crossfire TA

iTrader: (2)

OK, to start with, the high HP versions that you see some people racing in most cases is based on an aftermarket block (they’re pretty cool, they’re available drilled for SBC and other V8 heads, much stronger…).

Whether it’s a real Iron Duke or a later “tech 4” I don’t know for sure (I never checked), I thought that the early f-bodies got Iron dukes, but that was right around the time that they switched over. The advantage is that when it became the Tech 4 it was severely lightened and weakened. If you’re looking for a core to build the engine from if I remember right, the early S10’s got the best blocks.

As far as building one for boost, in a way, it’s much easier then a v8, you’ve got half the plumbing to make

If it was my project I’d want the compression down around 8:1 or even lower so you could run some real boost on pump gas. Some will disagree with me there and want slightly more compression and run lower boost, that will make less power but will feel more crisp (FWIW, the 4cly turbo that Pontiac used in the sunbirds back then ran 7.5:1 compression and that felt good).

WRT to the engine, you’ll want to build up one specifically for the application, the worst part of the stock duke is the pistons, they’re pretty much worthless for making power over 4500rpm na, much less boosted. But you’re lucky, you can use SBC, 350 pistons (and there are tons available, even cheap forged pistons) and other goodies. You’ll want to check around with the heads, there’s at least 3 major types that require different manifolds…, and flow significantly differently.

If you have the skills, or find someone that does to make your turbo manifold, I’d have them also make up a tuned runner intake, probably mated up to a smaller single bore throttle body (whatever is convenient, I’ve got a ton of smaller ford TB’s sitting around so that’s probably what I would use) in the 50-60mm range. Also have bungs drilled and mounted for port injection, and then install a 749ecm (sy/ty/sunbird turbo), which should work without major hassles, just a properly programmed chip.

As for the turbo, there’s a ton of choices in that size range, but you’re basically looking for something along the lines of a larger T3 (early T-bird manual tranny, GN…). That turbo + a properly built engine would be capable of as much as something in the 300hp range, but more realistically for street use I’d shoot for 200 unless you really know what you’re doing (there’s na Iron dukes running around ou there in the 190hp range on the street, so this would be no big deal).

Hum… I’ve thought about building a turbo duke before… just don’t have anything that I really want to put it in.

billsfirebird

iTrader: (1)

wow,

thanks guys for all your input. I appreciate it. I hope that I could accomplish this project sometime in the near future. I would like to pull the engine out to rebuild but this time put some better (stronger) internals for when I want to run some power adders.

If it ever does happen, it would be cool to pull up to a show or something like that and pop the hood. I get reactions now but imaging them after seeing a turbo bolted in there.

Im not one for much engine knowledge so thanks 83 Crossfire for helping me out.

So would I be looking for some sort of turbo off of a sunbird or should I go aftermarket?

Damon

The Tubo Sunbird is a completely different motor. It's a single overhead cam 2.0L 4-cylinder that shares little or nothing with the 2.5L pushrod 4-cyl Iron Duke motor.

ATOMonkey

I've heard that the bottom end of the Duke is super weak, especially the late model. You're definately going to have to build the engine from the bottom up before you put any boost to it. There's a company in Iowa I think that makes the blocks that use 5.7 heads. Another thing to think about is how much money do you really want to spend. We've spent some serious time here considering 2.4 and 2.3 quad 4 turbo engines in F-bods. Obviously you'll need a custom flywheel and an adapter for a bell housing on whatever tranny you want to run. Then find a way to bolt it to the frame.

The problem that you might run into using stock Duke parts is the same problem the turbo 301 poncho ran into. No matter how hard you blow, you still won't make any power.

I have a 2.3 turbo ford and have done a lot of looking into pepping it up some more. The T-5 in those is the weak link, so in order to run a TKO or Richmond, or anything else, you need an adapter and a spacer. Any machine shop should be able to fab one up with the right measurements. Then finding a flywheel and clutch to work is the next step.

The moral of the story is that it's definately doable, but it just might end up costing a little more than you initially suspected.

83 Crossfire TA

iTrader: (2)

The sunbird engines were 1.8 or 2.0L engines, just about the only thing usefull off of them is the ECM, and possibly the harness could be made to work.

The turbo is too small

Unless you really go SERIOUS with this buildup, I don't see you making more then 300hp +/- a little bit. In that case there is no reason to go with an aftermarket turbo, you're looking at stock turbos that are at the top of probably what I would call the most popular size range in OEM turbos. There's tons of stuff out there that will work. Like I said, I'd start with looking for T-bird T3's or GN's. The T-bird turbos are more common, can be usually had for cheaper and are more flexable (the GN's will flow slightly more air, but in a narrower efficientcy range). That and I've got a pile of spare parts sitting around, making the choice easy for me.

there's also a few mitsubishi turbos that are fairly common that are roughly the right size as well as some of the newer garret/turbonetics turbos. Maybe even something like a holset HY35 (not the more common/larger HX35) off a cummins truck, it would be way excessive (capable of moving roughly 500hp worth of air), but it would work well (an HX30 would work better, but I don't know of any common applications in the united states so they're harder to find).

Jeff Lewis

Jbuchanan

Thats a 15 year old thread, doubt anything came from it.

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

Bingo. Any engine can be improved upon, the problem is parts accessibility. Since the Iron Duke is such a rarity nowadays, it's better to scrap the idea and just get something a little newer to play with. For example, the ole straight six from back in the day was another great GM engine, but it cannot compare to the Vortec 4200 straight six that GM released later on. Again, that's not to say that the Iron Duke can't be built, and yes, it's cool to have something different. But in the long run, it's just not worth the time, effort and lack of performance in comparison. This may sound like blasphemy to most, but I'd go 4G63 way before I'd even consider an Iron Duke if I wanted a four banger to play with in a third gen...

- Rob

B4Ctom1

I have toyed with the idea of a K20

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

You should go for it, seriously. Subaru guys are experimenting with SR20's, Fox Body Mustang guys are playing with 4G63's, and Grand National guys are now playing with Coyote V8 swaps. Hell even the Supra guys are messing with GM 4200 I6's. I think the days of brand loyalty have become a forgone conclusion, and guys just wanna go fast. I'd like to see that K20 swap if you decide to do it.

- Rob

customblackbird

iTrader: (15)

I vote the 4cylinder turbo over the V8... just because. But I would look into getting a GM ecotec 4cyl... they are rumored to be the same block that NASCAR uses. They come NA, supercharged and turbo charged from the factory, producing 140-280hp. Of course they are limited to 12.7psi max but you can always increase that for more power. Also you should be able to do it on pump gas premium 91/93 depending on your area with a little water/meth injection. They are found in a ton of vehicles so picking on up used from a wrecked car should be no problem for cheap with the PCM. I know my fathers 2003 saturn ION has the 2.0 ecotec NA (160hp or something) But has a seperate PCM for engine and transmission so be mindful if you go that route.

Emmett Walker

I supercharged mine makes great power but it bit me forgot about the egr and it failed me and it will.stall if you let it so be careful and you will enjoy the car mine makes 300 hp 1000 pounds you get a rocket on wheels