What I got: 330hp vortec crate engine, ~670cfm TB, keeping TBI!, 4L60 built, subframe connectors, LCA & panhard bar, and SLP 1 5/8 headers - 3" exhaust.
What I plan on getting: 3000 stall converter, 3.73 posi w/slicks, convert back to roller cam, pro mag roller rockers, keep vortec heads and RPM intake system.
I'm trying to figure out a way to get into the low 12's after I do the above.
I don't know what kind of cam to go with. I also don't want to think about depending on N2O since I have cast pistons. If I got a 125hp N2O kit, what cam would be good with the heads to keep me street legal and get me into the low 12's or am I asking too much? I'm going to get the car past inspection in a couple months so after that I'm going to do a cam swap. This sounds like a really generic post but I'm serious, I'd like to know what some of you guys recommend for a cam since I plan on staying relatively clean and don't want to ditch the TBI. What would the 125hp shot do for me after I did all drivetrans upgrades?

------------------
, Jon (350 TBI!)
91 Red My website

 

I would suggest a dual pattern cam like a CC262XE. It is an emmissions friendly cam in a 350... at least with a non-CC carb. I don't know what it would do to a TBI computer, but the Q-jet seemed OK with it. That, with a 100HP shot, gears, and a 3000 converter should get you close to your goals (at least with a good carb).

------------------
1984 z28 w/ a 357 cu in. monster engine which is looking like the posterchild for Edelbrock with the exception of the Holley 750vac... all the suspension stuff... 9-bolt posi disk is in...

-=ICON Motorsports=-

 

maybe a 300 shot will get you there

 

Build yourself a nice 400, with a cam in the 240 range, .600 lift, something like that. Use some decent heads like AFR's, trickflows, whatever floats your boat, use a Weiand Team G manifold, run a dominator on top of that, MSD distributor, and just so you can say you kept your TBI, mount it on the dash right in the middle.

 

Take the TBI unit and put it in the trunk of a buick. Now you have a low 12s car (with a couple tweaks) and have retained your TBI

------------------
-Bill

-=1987 Buick Grand National=-
Almost Jacked Up Like a Mother

*CC 218/218, ported and polished heads (1.77, 1.50), Accufab AFPR, custom DP by Custom Tubes,
Walbro 307 hotwired, Big Mouth cold air intake, 009s, custom PROM and 20psi of fury*

Wanna try me?

-=ICON Motorsports=-

Modertor TPI board

 

Moderators, hang your heads in shame. 3 of you post and the only useful info I get is from a "member"...
You guys are sick. SO....back on subject, does anybody have a good grind that will help me get low 12's? I figure I need about 400hp to get into the 12's pretty deep.

------------------
, Jon (350 TBI!)
91 Red My website

 

madmax and Bill offer excellent ideas as well. I still like the 300 or maybe a dual stage 150/300 set up.

------------------
-=ICON Motorsports=-
JACKED up like a MOTHER!
Yeah they 10's but I keep em' real clean

 

You might want to try the TBI forum. Those guys Im SURE have a better idea how to fish the performance out of the TBI. I know I dont.

Good luck.

------------------
-86 IROC
Jacked up like a mother!
this years goal: 10.50 @ 130+ mph
-=ICON Motorsports=-

 

The only reason I am not a Moderator is because I scored too high on the IQ test Dirk gave us!


------------------
1984 z28 w/ a 357 cu in. monster engine which is looking like the posterchild for Edelbrock with the exception of the Holley 750vac... all the suspension stuff... 9-bolt posi disk is in...

-=ICON Motorsports=-

 

VERY true...I just answered n2o on all the questions!

 

yeah, biochem done blew the Q test away when he told us all how he keeps the sheep from running away, smart dude.

------------------
Ed Maher - Moderator @ The Carb Board
92 Z28 Convertible - Quasar blue / Tan top
LB9 4L60 GU2 G80 - stock, soon to be sleeper
-=ICON Motorsports=-

- Definitely prototypes, high powered mutants of some kind. Too weird to live, too cool to die

[This message has been edited by Ed Maher (edited May 24, 2001).]

 

LMAO @ Matt and Ed.

Umm..drive it off a cliff? Convert to a 4bbl TBI system with DFI? 200+ shot of nos....stuff like that.

------------------
"American made baby. 100% American iron. The muscle among the masses. My hero. Yep, you can take your ergonomically designed, space age, computer controlled, 4 door, cup holding map lighted split double wishbone split fold down retractable cargo covered moon roof piece of transportation and keep it. For I have felt the thunder. And I know the difference!"
JSP Motorsports
ICON Motorsports

 

Nobody has recommended a JATO booster rocket yet?

How about a blow-through supercharger application? Construct a pressurized sheet metal container for the TBI unit and pressurize the whole thing to about 10 psi with a good quality supercharger.

 

i would go with what biochem said, a bumpstick of the like from compcams(just bc their my fav), and maybe consider some headwork. nitrous will definately get you down there, and i think its effects will really be felt if you compliment it with other mods(like the right cam and exhaust, which you already have). but wouldnt you rather be able to run 12's all the time, and not just when you have a bottle of nitro in the back? thats the only thing i see wrong w/nitrous, is that its not constant power, like a SC. however... keep in mind this is all comming from a lowly 'member', which means none of it holds any value

------------------

• 83 Z28--ttops, 200k miles--very ragged out. sold, thank goodness
• 74 Z28--slightly modded 383, TH400 tranny, not too quick but fun to drive

 

I respect that. Thanks for actually giving an informative opinion. I also don't like N2o as much but there are 2 good things about it. It's the cheap mans super charger and it's on and off engine stress. I would love to get into the 12's but I haven't heard of anybody telling me it's possible with the RPM intake and vortec heads. Sorry moderators, it was funny at first and I laughed, not it would be nice if you didn't bash on TBI, at least I get 27mpg on the highway, more than I can say for most of you with 300+hp.
Really though, those comments bashing TBI are uncalled for and you all know it. If you don't have something useful to say, go say it over at nethirdgen.org!



------------------
, Jon (350 TBI!)
91 Red My website

 

On a serious note, this is what I was thinking about (moderators:

• Matt98SS
• madmax
• Bill87GN
• Guido
• Ed Maher
• Jester

Please don't reply.
Getting 3/8" ARP screw in studs, the roller cam (I would like to know of a good computer grind that has a chance of passing the sniff test), increasing the valve lift by getting the heads milled for larger springs, and I'm keeping the HEADS and the WHOLE intake system as is. I know that Jim Pace automotive has a 380hp version of this crate engine and the only thing it has that my engine doesn't is the cam/springs. The cam they use is not very computer friendly since the intake/ex duration are about equal. I'm also thinking about the 125hp N2o SO what kind of cam grinds should I be looking at?

------------------
, Jon (350 TBI!)
91 Red My website

 

WTF?
I could have given some smart *** answer like "huh huh go toss your TBI in the garbage can" but instead I was honest and said, Hey go check out the TBI forum. Think about it. You are likely to get better answers there.

Gee wiz.

 

why bother? on n2o your powerband is LOWER than NA as in it peaks sooner

TALK to COMP about Nitrous HP cams. They are made to rock on the bottle and decent on NA

by telling us not to reply is eliminating 6 guys that together have worked on most engines/cars/platforms out there and have n2o, turbo, supercharger, and NA experience.

that is just as bad as posting a general question and putting someones NAME in the subject meaning ONLY you can answer.

take it easy...life is short, not like as soon as we posted you called up summit and did exactly what we said and you lost 1000s of dollars

------------------
-=ICON Motorsports=-
JACKED up like a MOTHER!
Yeah they 10's but I keep em' real clean

 

Ummm, I get about 25mpg and I have close to 400HP with a Holley...

I prefer NO2 because it doesn't beat on your engine (and frame and rear and tranny and...) every day.

------------------
1984 z28 w/ a 357 cu in. monster engine which is looking like the posterchild for Edelbrock with the exception of the Holley 750vac... all the suspension stuff... 9-bolt posi disk is in...

-=ICON Motorsports=-

 

oh yeah I got 32.08 mpg on the highway before. Oh boy...who cares about MPG...these are muscle cars not metros

 

My 5.0 gets 25 mpg... buy a Ford!

 

My dad's car went from 28 MPG with TBI to 31 MPG with TPI on it. If your TBI had 300 HP it wouldnt get 30 MPG either.

The intake and exhaust durations being the same on a cam has no effect on the computer's ability to control it. Its the intake duration and lobe seperation that affects the computer.


------------------
1991 Camaro Z28
5.7L 5-Speed (originally 305)
13.23 @ 107.62 MPH
Southern California
Member: SoCal 3rd Gen F-Bodies
Webmaster: SoCal F-Bodies
-=ICON Motorsports=-

 

Guido, I'm the moderator over at TBI. I'm honest, they don't know much about N2o and cam grinds (neither do I).
So I was looking for some opinions about TBI, cam grinds, and N2o, I figured this would be the board to figure all that out but instead I got **** from 5 respectable moderators, how would you react?
Back to the subject at hand. I don't understand why I shouldn't bother with screw in studs. I have press in right now, wouldn't I WANT screw in?
The main thing here is that I want to use the LEAST amount of N2o and get into the low 12's with my current setup, different cam.
Don't give me Bull*hit about "just as bad as posting a general quetion and putting someones NAME in the subject meaning ONLY you can answer."~Matt98SS, you didn't help out at first and I wanted to make it clear that if you didn't have anything helpful to say, shut up.
Kevin91z, you are a problem in my life. Every chance you get you try and put down TBI like it is a virus. Get off it, I wasn't saying TPI got less mpg than TBI, I was talking mostly about carb. You talk about the intake duration and lobe seperation that affects the computer, thanks for that reply. Now you got me shooting for 30mpg with my current setup. I'm going to get the car tuned (something is funky right now) and I'm going to enable highway mode in the ecm, then we'll see if I can't get 30mpg on my 540 mile trip.
Sorry if somehow I came off as an *******, I guess I was a little pissed off at how some of you wasted your time posting **** about my TBI setup.

------------------
, Jon (350 TBI!)
91 Red My website

 

Thats not all they dont know.

Keep in mind the task youre asking about. Do you know how many 12 second TBI cars there are around here? I can probably count them all on one hand. Do you know how many times a newbie with a TBI car posts asking about how to make his car run 12's for cheap? It gets to be very funny.

I dont know... Get the screw-in studs, they're better.

And we're saying it will be tough to do with a TBI setup, based on our experience, and watching the experiences of TBI owners.

TBI isnt a virus, just like its not a valued intake for performance engines. And also like I said above, you wont get 30 MPG with 300+ HP, it just wont happen.

Sorry to rain on your parade, but we're just trying to help you out... If you do it, please, come back and rub it in our faces. I'm familiar with the taste of my foot in my mouth.

 

why don't you go to the track and get a baseline with your current combo and maybe with an additiional pair of drag tires or slicks. Then you'll know how much N20 to run. If you're able to run high 13's or <14.1's then maybe your just a bottle away from 12's.

I think a 350 w/ cast pistons can easily absorb a 125 hp shot. I think it'll do more damage to your transmission than your pistons. But they don't mention that in the brochure :O

James

[This message has been edited by james_fearn (edited May 25, 2001).]

 

I don't see why a moded TBI unit couldn't provide enough flow to support 330hp that the motor has. I say the only thing you need to change is the cam-the ZZ4 roller has less duration, but a lot more lift than the 330hp HO cam (non-roller), and probably idles better in a TBI too. A 330hp motor in a 3500lb f-body is an easy low 13 second car at 105-107mph (assuming its tuned right). If you throw on a 100hp NOS kit, add another 10mph and take off another second off the ET.

Its not as simple as just throwing the motor in and cranking out those times though. You will nuke a stock trans, so you need to get one built, just the way it is. Don't get a TQ converter that stalls above 2500rpm, you don't need it. You will also need to make suspension mods to hook the car up: torque arm, LCAs, and LCA brackets. In the exhaust department you will defintely need headers, 1-5/8" ones are perfect, and a 3-1/2" cat-back exhaust system. If you have 3.23 or better gears, keep them, if you have 3.08 or lower, replace them. Don't go for 3.73 or 4.10 gears, the car will be overreving at the big end.

------------------
Paul Huryk, billionare in training.
Monkey Guy Racing
Almost part of the moderately infamous NJ in-your-face all goomba crew

Do it right the first time.

Paul's home page

1985 IROC LG4 POS Best: 15.20s at 92.1mph
1984 Camaro 350 LG4 Best: 12.21s at 121.7mph

The smart person pays for something today so that more is received tomorrow.
The ignorant person gets something today and hopes to have enough money to pay for it tomorrow.

 

Anybody know where to get a TBI "cap" for a supercharger setup? What do you think about supercharging a TBI with 9.1:1 and cast pistons. How much could I get away with (no aftercooler)?

------------------
, Jon (350 TBI!)
91 Red My website

 

Vortech and ATI make blowers for 350 and 454 TBI trucks, and it should be no sweat to adapt one for an f-body.

 

Hes hardly a "newbie".

------------------
'91 Camaro RS - dark red metallic - '91-'92 Z28 wheels - leather - all power options (except power seat) - t-tops - Clarion head unit - Pioneer 4way 200watt 6x9s - Rockford Fosgate Punch amp and 2 Fosgate 12" subs - Edelbrock open element w/ K&N filter - Random Technology highflow cat - some free mods, more coming soon...

 

I think Jester made his own for his TT setup, didn't he? I can't remember if he made it outright or if he modded something to work though. I think the bonnets were frigging expensive ~$100 IIRC when I looked into this a while back.

By the way, I'm with you Jon, my 385 CID TBI TA will do just fine, thank ya verra much. I just don't understand the naysayers that scream "Can't be done" - then go on to extoll the virtues of carbs, WTF. Whatever. See y'all at the end of the track.

When you catch up.

Darth Steve

------------------
Steve's Trans Am Temple

 

Steve, you better have that beast up and running soon. I want video, sound, the works. You have taken that SO far, would be nice to have another TBI guy with more than 305 cubes . z28 boy and rsilver are the other guys. z28 boy is selling his car and rsilver just finished the swap (has LT1 cam in crate engine). Hopefully they'll stick around the TBI forum to help me out with all the generic questions.

------------------
, Jon (350 TBI!)
91 Red My website

 

I would like to post something that "theformula" just sent to me through e-mail. I'd like to show the maturity level of this guy. Does he have anything better to do. And let me just add, my 350 TBI setup DOES have more potential than his S/C 305 TPI setup. What do you guys think I would run with 8lbs of boast?
Here goes, sorry but I can't let him "abuse" me without anybody else knowing about it .
<a href="http://members.aol.com/jprevost/temp/1.gif">1st e-mail</a> <a href="http://members.aol.com/jprevost/temp/2.gif">2nd e-mail</a>
I don't apoligize for posting his e-mail. I wonder what he's going to dig up next. Maybe since He's spent MORE money on the car than me, so it's faster....lol. One last quote and a link to where most of his nonsence started.
"Get a life and stop trying to compete with me...Is your life really that boring , you have to argue with someone on the internet? lol You need to ask yourself, "why do I take this so seriously" and spend some time getting your 350TBI to finally break 13s."~theformula
<a href="https://www.thirdgen.org/messgboard/Forum17/HTML/000018.html">The link that started it all</a>

------------------
, Jon (350 TBI!)
91 Red My website

 

Update: I just tried e-mailing him but this is what I got from the AOL servers:
----- Transcript of session follows -----
... while talking to air-za01.mail.aol.com.:
>>> RCPT To:<iviastar@aol.com>
<<< 550 iviastar IS NOT ACCEPTING MAIL FROM THIS SENDER
550 <iviastar@aol.com>... User unknown

This is what I wanted to say.
"Real smooth, check out the post, maybe we can start flaming each other. You need to stop being so stubborn, you don't know everything, you won't know everything, and you WILL get burned by a S/C 350 TBI. I don't know how old you are, I don't know where you live, and I don't care what your problem is with me. With that said, please "get a life"~you and never e-mail me again. I will accept only an apology for your rude behavior. Anything else and the forum hears about it again.
Do we or don't we both have a thirdgen? You can waist time but I'd much rather go after ford and imports not eachother.
, Jon"

------------------
, Jon (350 TBI!)
91 Red My website

 

Cool, I made the list!

What you listed isnt going to get you there. Neither is a cam. It would be hard with a 350, stock weight, and any induction let alone TBI to get to the low 12's even with a shot of nitrous. Why let alone TBI? Count the number of cars actually running it and in the 13's. If you want to keep it, then expect to bang your head against the wall trying to make it work respectably. There are lots of knowledgeable people who have tried it and had IMO poor success. If you want to run it and attempt to run 12's, be my guest, but dont expect it not to cause you some grief. You are basically on your own as far as that goes, since there is really nobody running that sorta times with TBI. Trying to get a cookie cutter parts mix to run low 12's with a TBI is going to be difficult considering how many cars are running TBI and running 12's.

In all seriousness, my original post even though in jest isnt far off either. More cubes and more CFM would make life much easier. If the engine is not in I would suggest forged pistons and porting the heads before it goes in. If its already in... well I think you'd be lucky to hit 12's. Work on the suspension and lose some weight, especially rotating mass. If you cant put the power down and you are spending half of it in the drivetrain, you will never make it there.

 

You say get rid of rotating mass, I've heard it go both ways. Some say that 8" balancer and heavy flexplate will give you a better 60' (more torque?) and I've heard go with the lightest so the engine can make more power in less time. Wouldn't it all depend on the weight of the car? More torque, less "shock" to the engine when the car shifts etc. This is good for an auto since the gears aren't exactly a closed ratio. If you bang through a 6 speed then I could see a big advantage with a a "lighter" engine.
Does anybody know ANYBODY running 12's with vortec heads and some kind of power adder? I already have the engine in the car. Seriously, what kind of hp increase do you think I could manage with a 350 9.1:1 cast pistons with a supercharger?
I have the rear planned out, already have SLP LCA/panhard and SFCs. I'm getting a used Spohn torque arm from a friend. Then when I figure out my future plans with the engine (supercharge, N2o etc) I'm going to do the rear end with relocation brackets, probably 3.73 heavy duty torsen and girdle w/preload studs. I figure that should hold up okay. I understand that my trans might not hold up that long, I'm running a new stock converter right now. I'll get a new converter when I do some work on the engine upgrades. My friend is running a 370hp 327 forged, dart iron eagle heads, 12 bolt 3.73 in a 69 3100lbs camaro running 13 flat with a TH350. He's using heavy parts (8" balancer, flexplate, and steel driveshaft). He'll be in the 12's since he just replaced his rockers with some pro mag and he's put the car on a diet to loose some more weight (fiberglass hood). I know I weigh more than him but it must be possible to get into the 12's with TBI. He's running a 650cfm holley! This gives me hope . I want to be in the low 13's after my valve tran upgrade (roller etc. 380hp/415lbs) then go on a diet and get the car down to 3300 without driver. SO after all that, what do you think about me getting into the 12's with a power adder!
madmax, I totally understand the banging head on wall. I've been there, still there, that is what makes this such a drug.
Really though, I can't get a new block, I'm working on a TIGHT budget since I'm still paying for school!


------------------
, Jon (350 TBI!)
91 Red My website

[This message has been edited by JPrevost (edited May 27, 2001).]

 

well, since im the other moderator of the tbi board, guess i gotta come check this out.

hmmm,

here, just to point out something that may or may not be obvious to everyone, and might clear some things up.

jprevost, JUST put that engine in, and its his daily driver. i would assume that the last thing he wants to do is go for more cubes, or swap the bottom end etc..

And since when wouldnt a 330hp small block be able to hit 12's with a power adder.

A nice tip from somebody who knows more information than a regular about power adders would be nice.

Next, to back up tbi. no, nevermind, you wouldnt understand. but incase you feel like being open minded and not ingorant, go get the latest issue of Engine Masters Magazine. Summer 2001 volume 4. read it.

and if you can explain to me how a 2bbl 2.25" tbi with 90pph injectors on a supercharged 454 would be better of being carbed, tpi or mpfi. i have somebody who might want to hear your arguements before he buys my new design.

J, heres my take on this post. it reminds me of how the tbi board was before we cleaned up the trash.

these boards are here so that people can ask questions and get back helpful answers and suggestions, not so people can use the boards to have fun being smart aces and wasting dirks web space and other people's time.

suggestion to moderators of this board, delete the post before dirk sees it, and ask jprevost politely to re-post his question so that you can seriously and helpfully respond to it.

 

<a href="http://members.aol.com/jprevost/temp/3.gif">One more thing I got from theformula</a>
I don't need to even bother talking about this but I'll just say that I'm trying to keep my car street legal. I don't want to have a car that won't pass emissions. If any of you read what theformula has been saying to me then you understand why it's either he goes or I go. This isn't between me or him, it's between most of you and me it seems. I don't know what I've done to deserve this kind of **** but obviously you guys don't care. I've done nothing but help others and this is the kind of **** I get. Consider this my goodbye and **** you.
theformula, obviously you think you're getting on my nerves because you won't keep my e-mail blocked if you wanted to keep this "off the boards." You are a sad scared boy that needs to stop hiding. I'm not pathetic, I don't have anything to hide. I am not runnint high 14's with my setup, my g-tech run was a 14.69 at 104 with full tank gas and 2 other friends in the car. I didn't load up my converter, I spun the "wheel", and I ***** footed the car to make up for the spinning. 104-5=99mph with 400 extra pounds in the car and NO good take off. I think that isn't to bad for an untuned car. You need to shut up and sit down. If you want to fight me just come out and say it, don't hide behind an "aol firewall."
------------------
, Jon (350 TBI!)
91 Red My website

[This message has been edited by JPrevost (edited May 28, 2001).]

 

Besides looking for more HP, shouldn't other areas of the car be looked at? They lighter the car tbi, tpi, carb or pushed, the less it will take to get it in the 12's.

------------------
1992 Pontiac Firebird 350/Six Speed
1987 Toyota Pickup 383/500+ HP