I have been browsing the boards for quite some time now, and theres a lot of information on upgrading f-bodies, but I am curious about a start-to-finish project. Suppose you take a stock camaro, right now i'm thinking late 80s.. what does it take to get it to run 10s? Should I put in a 383 stroker, a 454.. is it even going to be possible to make it a street legal driving car as well? What all needs to be upgraded along with the motor.. what kind of gear ratios, etc.. everything is fair game except tubro charging.. and preferably i'd like to do it without nos.. i never really liked those ideas basically.. whats the optimal setup for a third-gen camaro? i would greatly appreciate input, taking all things into consideration.. suspension, gear ratios, braking, whatever.. i cant even think of all the things that'd need to be done off the top of my head id like to be able to do this eventually, as long as it doesnt cost *too* much anyway, thanks in advance, it'll be interesting to see what kind of car we can come up with

 

double post

[This message has been edited by BuckeyeROC (edited November 27, 2001).]

 

Money aside, here is what I'd do. A Motown 427 smallblock w/ AFR 220 heads, miniram, and a custom ground blower cam. Then put an ATI Procharger D-1 SC kit on it with about 15 lbs. of boost. If you want to keep it N/A, subtract the Procharger and get a BIG cam. Have someone burn a custom PROM. Get some Hooker Super Comp headers w/ Jet-Hot, no cat, and a 4 inch Cat-back.
Get a Be-Cool or Griffin radiator, MSD Digital 6 Plus ignition, high flow water pump, high volume oil pump, etc, etc. Find a bad tranny like a Tremec TKO, and good clutch or for an auto get a built Turbo 400 (w/ maybe a Gear Venders overdrive) and a Vigilante with the appropriate stall. Get a Ford 9" rear or 12 bolt rear w/ around 3.73 gears and a heavy duty driveshaft. Get a complete Spohn suspension package. Buy some wide rims for the rear, 10" or 11" and put some 315mm BFG Drag Radials on it. There's going to be a lot of other small stuff, but this would be one wicked and streetable ride.

------------------
89 IROC-SuperRammed 355 w/ AFR 190's and LPE 219/219 cam-http://www.geocities.com/buckeyeroc

[This message has been edited by BuckeyeROC (edited November 27, 2001).]

 

Well you said turbocharging not an option but it is the best way to make power.

If you don't mind owning a ten second V6 then a TTA motor is the way to build a streetable mid ten second car for a reasonable amount of money that you can drive everyday to work(if you choose)and get 22-25mpg doing it

Steve

------------------
1989 Turbo Trans Am's #124 and #850
1989 Turbo GTA,600hp 3.8L SFI TURBO
2001 Kawasaki ZX-6R
www.tta850.com

 

Oh and as far as money,you can get a GN motor into a thirdgen for around the cost(or less)than a Procharger if time is not an issue

Steve

 

thanks to both of you for the posts.. on the motown, would cast iron or aluminum heads be the better way to go? obviously the aluminums put out a few more horsies than the cast iron, but.. any down sides to them? they gonna be able to hold up as well as the cast irons? and as far as the whole turbo thing.. i know you can get more power out of a turbo but.. i never really liked the idea of a twin turbo street driving car hehe.. dont really wanna deal with the lag, revving the engine, all that kinda stuff.. and, unless my understandings off, you can get almost the same gains from an intercooled supercharger? to me at least, the few dozen horsies you lose by going with the supercharger is worth not having to deal with the hassles of turbo.. if it was purely a racer then yea, id go with turbos.. but i do want it driveable too thanks again, both of you.. any more suggestions?

 

LAG?.
Guess you haven't ridden in a decent turbo car (GN, TTA tuned right).
With even the stock ecm, you can work miracles with a lil 6.
10 sec streetable N/A car, right.
There are lots of 10 sec cars that instantly turn into *slugs* when you take the slicks off.
To get a car to run 10s on street tires takes tons of work.

 

scrathes head..... are you saying you don't want to run a turbo because it is not streetable?As I said before you can have a 10 second V6 that can drive to work everyday getting 22-25mpg w/the a/c on...I think thats about as streetable as you can get and no n/a V8 can do that..period.

I'm sorry if I'm repeating myself I just want to let you make an educated decision scince you don't seem know much about turbo's.That car I just described to you,btw,is my 89 GTA except I'm going to be shooting for 9's

Steve

------------------
1989 Turbo Trans Am's #124 and #850
1989 Turbo GTA,600hp 3.8L SFI TURBO
2001 Kawasaki ZX-6R
www.tta850.com

 

you're right, i dont have much experience with turbos.. from what ive heard, they're somewhat of an annoyance to drive, but.. ive also never driven one i guess i never thought about a 6-cyl before.. what kinda cid motor would you recommend for doin that? and theres still no turbo kit right.. it'd have to be custom? what other mods would it take to get it into the 10-second range? appreciate the new spin, hadnt thought about doin that at all.. also, how easy will the motor be to drop in? does it take much modification? thanks again!

 

I thought the Buick 3.8L required different cyl. heads to fit into an F-body? I was told this by a local GN owner. I know it's a 4th Gen.....but GM High Tech did an article on a 93' Formula w/ a Buick V6 swap. It was super clean, and a 10.30 ride. My parents own a nice, low mileage GN......I enjoy driving it very much.

But, here's my combination......I hope it will see 10's. 99.9% of the people who have looked at it seem to think so.

383 stroker, 6" rods, 11:1 CR JE forged flat tops, CC306 cam - (230/244 dur, .544"/.580"lift w/ 1.6), AFR 195cc Heads - race ported by Champion cyl heads, 1.6 Comp Cams Pro magnum roller rockers, Mini Ram, Accel DFI, 30# injectors, BBK 58mm TB, MSD distributor & Digital 6 box, Hooker Super Comp long tubes, 2&1/2" true duals w/ H-crossover, Car Chemistry mufflers, Art Carr 700R4 w/ 3600-3800 stall 10" lock-up converter, 12 bolt w/ 3.73's......oh yeah - and a 175 HP shot of Nitrous.

I like the turbo V6 idea just fine, like others.....I had no knowledge about the Turbo V6 swap. It's all about how you want to go about making power. Good luck w/ your project.

------------------
1986 IROC, fully loaded, Mini Ram'd 383, Art Carr 700R4, Accel DFI, 12 bolt rear, etc, etc......

 

 

Well it's kinda custom but not really,if you don't mind not having a/c then it's real simple...a little harder if you want to keep it.

You would basically be putting a 231ci GN motor into it,which can be done as I said for around or less than a supercharger kit.That will get high 12's to low 13's,to get into the 11's and 10's will require some speed parts.

Tuned on stock stuff(stock injectors, turbo, intercooler, ect)can get down in the 11.7-9 range around 113-115mph

Quoting TTA89's combo,a PT-51 turbo along with MSD50 injectors, a 3" downpipe thrown into the above stock stuff will get you as low as 11.25@122(Mike,if your reading this,I'm sorry to keep bringing you up but I am just so impressed what you managed to get out of a 105K mile stock motor that you never even took the throttle body off,good work)

A little more like say a throttle body and plenum upgrade along with an upgraded intercooler and your in the 10's.Not bad for a motor with a stock cam that(with a little luck)you never even took the heads off.

Any more than that and you should beef the shortblock up a little,although my freind Erik is in the 10.40 range(shooting for 9's)with a completely stock shortblock.

I'm sorry for rambling on I just like to give people an idea of what can be done with this amazing motor and think it should be on your list of options considering your goals.

If your interested in some pics and info on what my 3.8L turbo swap go to www.tta850.com/tgta

Steve

------------------
1989 Turbo Trans Am's #124 and #850
1989 Turbo GTA,600hp 3.8L SFI TURBO
2001 Kawasaki ZX-6R
www.tta850.com

 

Hell yeah! I would love to have a Buick Turbo 6 in my RS! Would the price really be reasonable though?

------------------
'91 Camaro RS - TBI 305 - medium garnet - '91-'92 Z28 wheels - leather - all power options (except power seat) - t-tops - Clarion head unit - Pioneer 4way 200watt 6x9s - Rockford Fosgate Punch amp and 2 Fosgate 12" subs - Edelbrock open element w/ K&N filter - Random Technology highflow cat - some free mods, more coming soon...

 

Yes it is reasonable,depending on what you want to do.

You can get a 3.8 turbo into an f-body for $3K or less including the motor(doing it yourself).If you want to run a/c then it'll be a little more.

I probrobly have $10K+ into my swap so far but I have a seriously upgraded motor(JE Pistons, steel main caps, block girdle, billet roller cam, ect)

If I can answer any more specific questions on this subject please feel free to email me TTA850@aol.com

Steve

------------------
1989 Turbo Trans Am's #124 and #850
1989 Turbo GTA,600hp 3.8L SFI TURBO
2001 Kawasaki ZX-6R
www.tta850.com

 

hehe educate them steve....i'm HOPING to get mine done by spring i'm just shooting for high 11's not 9's

------------------
*89 Trans Am GTA
*Moderator at www.transamgta.com

To hell with the GM vs Ford war. We must unite, as brothers to fight the plague that is overtaking the world...RICE

Tony

 

Bah..take a merlin built and prepped 632 and be done with it. Tackle that with a very well built trans, and obviously like a dana 60 or ford 9" rear and be done with it.

------------------
1972 Chevy Chevelle "Malibu"
Hooker Headers, Flowmaster 40 series mufflers, accel 8.8 wires,Edelbrock performer intake Edelbrock Carb, Msd Blaster 2 Coil, Torque Thrust "D" wheels
Coming Up
Hei conversion, Msd digital 6, Stock Cowl Induction Hood, K&N Filter w/ Xtreme Air Lid
Click here for my Malibu information
In Memory of #3 Dale Earnhardt

 

Look at the connecting rod journals (1-2, 3-4, 5-6) and formulate your own opinion about Buick V-6 engines.

Sorry for the greasy pic, only one I could find (in 5 minutes).

 

That is just one version of their crank. The TTA does not use that one. it uses a stronger one.


------------------
-Tas
'89 Formula WS-6

305, TBI, 700R4, P.A.W. 14x3 open element with K&N, Milodon 160* thermo, functional Formula hood, cross-flow Flowmaster, '99z28 rear pipes and tips, Hooker 1-5/8" 50 state legal headers, Dynomax 3" I pipe (PN 44063 and 43248)
Super GRK_Taz World
F-Body Dual Exaust
EFI & Intake Options

 

Newer V6 crank (Buick)



V8 crank (Chevy)




You be the judge.

 

Where can I get a 3.8 Turbo for under 3000 bucks? Also, I have no idea how you are comparing crankshafts and making sweeping generalizations about the engine. Am I missing something?

------------------
1991 Firebird
350 L98 (was a 305 TBI),T-5,Edelbrock TES and cat back,Accel manifold
NOS,subframes,jegster torque arm,MSD Digital 6
AFPR,Lakewood lcas
Hurst linelock,SLP cam (206 212 .480 .486),relocated battery,cold air,Hypertech chip,centerforce df,clutch
poly bushings and mounts
AFR 190s
Harland sharp 1.5 rockers
autopower rollbar

12.33 @ 114.83 juiced uncorrected

13.510 @ 102 non juiced uncorrected

 

a73camaro,I understand where you are trying to go with that,because the crank is machined or even-fire where the chebby is not.

Howeverdon't think that makes it weak,bone stock rotating assemblies can handle 600 or so hp with proper tuning and keep the rpm's down,while Buick stage motors can make upwards of 1500 hp and spin well over 9000 rpm's.

And a turbobuick for $3000,sure.Most stock turbobuick drivetrains(motor/trans)I've seen are going for between $1-2K an it will take say another $1-1.5K to get it in and running.

------------------
1989 Turbo Trans Am's #124 and #850
1989 Turbo GTA,600hp 3.8L SFI TURBO
2001 Kawasaki ZX-6R
www.tta850.com

 

The crank for a Chevy V8 is machined for even fire. With the piston bank offset by 90°, the offset journal is not required. The spark event on a SBC occurs at 90° intervals, or even fire.

Back in 93, I saw someone put a 3.8 turbo into a Chevy LUV. I had a S-10 that I wanted to do this to. The S-10 even had a TH350 (BOPC) style, so no biggie for the swap. I got a hold of the '70s turbo 3.8, and was going to do a poor man's overhaul (college at the time). When I splattered the engine, I found cast rods, and that "funky" crank. The little voice in my head said

"Put down the wrench and slowly back away"

Now you can make the 3.8's run, but to me, I can't stand that crankshaft. If I knew that 3.8s had that type of crankshaft, I would have not bothered with it. Just trying to inform the masses.

 

I think you see how I am comparing crankshafts (reading the web page). And I made no "sweeping generalizations".

But I'll cut to the chase, which crank would you rather have pushing you car???

 

I have to ask,what were you doing when the engne went?I don't mean to offend you but there are quite a few people in the turbobuick community that are part of the drove over the crank club and most got there becase the don't know what they are doing(while a few others were in the 9's)

There is a horsepower limit to the V6 buick at around 650-700 max but even at the 500hp level if you spin it beyond 5200rpm it's going to blow up no matter what you do to it.And *** forbid you get the slightest amount of knock at that level.The exception is the stage 1 and 2 motors.

I know of one car that lasted 100K+ miles of low,low 11 second runs beforeit developed a rod knock and another car thats been running 10.40's for 3 years on a rebuilt stock block(stock crank,rods,and pistons)with no problems,but again both cars are owned by people who know these motor's and understand their limits.

I'm not saying the buick is in anyway better than the chevy,it is most definatly not.But in an effort to not have what everyone else has and do things that most don't like get 25mpg,pull out of my garage at night without waking the neighbors,and running low 10's to high 9's all from the same car.

For me it's the buick crank over the chevy any day.

Steve

------------------
1989 Turbo Trans Am's #124 and #850
1989 Turbo GTA,600hp 3.8L SFI TURBO
2001 Kawasaki ZX-6R
www.tta850.com

[This message has been edited by TTA850 (edited December 07, 2001).]

 

The engine was fine. I just didn't like the look of it. I have come to find out that GM did the offset journal to make the old odd-fire blocks into even-fire. To me it was fixing a bad design to begin with (in my opinion). A even-fire V6 can be designed more cleanly with cylinders that are 60° opposed.

Anybody can make anything RUN with enough money thrown at it. No sarcasm, it is the truth.

 

"Look at the connecting rod journals (1-2, 3-4, 5-6) and formulate your own opinion about Buick V-6 engines.
Sorry for the greasy pic, only one I could find (in 5 minutes)."


A73, above is a swweping generalization you posted. You make reference to the connecting rods journals as a basis to discredit the entire engine.




------------------
1991 Firebird
350 L98 (was a 305 TBI),T-5,Edelbrock TES and cat back,Accel manifold
NOS,subframes,jegster torque arm,MSD Digital 6
AFPR,Lakewood lcas
Hurst linelock,SLP cam (206 212 .480 .486),relocated battery,cold air,Hypertech chip,centerforce df,clutch
poly bushings and mounts
AFR 190s
Harland sharp 1.5 rockers
autopower rollbar

12.33 @ 114.83 juiced uncorrected

13.510 @ 102 non juiced uncorrected

 

Call it what you will. I stated my facts and my opinion. IMO, I believe that the offset grind of the common journal is a poor design. This is a CRITICAL component.

Compare it to an old Ford flathead. The crank/rods have a typical V8 construction, but there are only 3 main caps holding the crank in place. Modern V8's have 5 main caps. There is a visual "warm fuzzy" that tells me that 5 main caps gotta be stronger than three.

I do believe that you can pump ~400 ft lbs of torque thru a 3.8 crank. But it gives me the ******* when I think that torque of that magnitude is going thru a cast crank with offset common journals.

BTW, you seem a little defensive about your V6 engine.

 

Where can I get one of those 3.8 turbos??

BTW, a73, if you are referring to me and my V6 please read my sig and then re-read it.



------------------
1991 Firebird
350 L98 (was a 305 TBI),aftermarket T-56 (in the mail) ,Edelbrock TES and cat back,Accel manifold
NOS,subframes,jegster torque arm,MSD Digital 6
AFPR,Lakewood lcas
Hurst linelock,SLP cam (206 212 .480 .486),relocated battery,cold air,Hypertech chip,centerforce df,clutch
poly bushings and mounts
AFR 190s
Harland sharp 1.5 rockers
autopower rollbar

12.33 @ 114.83 juiced uncorrected

13.510 @ 102 non juiced uncorrected

 

I know you have a V8, but I did entertain the thought that you COULD have more than one vehicle. It was such an awful assumption on my part.

The way your are defending the 3.8 V6, it seemed that you owned one.

 

Where do i get my hands on a GN motor? Are they limited stock? Could i rebuild one or install parts on a stand in a garage with little or no knowledge and plenty of time?

 

everyone who is interested in 6 banger motors: check out www.gnttype.org . they have a section that explains 3.8, 4.0 and 4.2liter(maby?) motors, where to get them, and how much.

the blown 3.8 motor is different than the NA 3.8 motor. stronger parts were used in the blown motor. i've seen wayyy too many people running 10's on a stock motor to think that they are weak. hell, people run 9's before they need to seriously upgrade the motor. i'm thinking either you abused your engine in the wrong ways (over revving, not tuned, etc) or you just got a randomly weak part. i believe the 3.8's are some of the most potent motors out there.

 

most of the replys here are correct.for the money you can't beat the power of a turbocharger.in a custom design the initial outlay is expensive.however just consider that most buicks can run 12's without a problem with as little as $600 in mods.now a typical third gen can do it with juice however those cast pistons won't last long.everyone is talking about reliability here,but not once did i hear the mention of how this car is gonna bee driven.if you hear of a 3.8 buick breaking,it usually isn't the occaisonal weekend warrior at the strip.they are full out ***** to the wall go getters that if it breaks the owner has no problem rebuilding it(possibly stage1 or 2).before you set out on a plan to run tens you have to decide whether it is gonna be the race car where the only use is abuse or is it gonna be a driver in which case the engine won't see repeated blasts down the 1/4.if it is a driver good luck getting that tourqe to the ground.as for the 3.8 n/a it's a p.o.s. they threw that engine in there to save a few m.p.g.'s in the c.a.f.e requirements.when theyt designed the turbo they didn't expect it to do the things people are doing with them,however as with any major company they ensured a little longevity by upgrading the components.i am a firm believer in the old saying that an engine is an air pump.if you can get more air into the engine it will make more power.there has been countless articles written on the 3.8 turbo,most of them ran those numbers without the mind altering boost you commonly see.think of psi as the restricton the air has to overcome if you delete that restriction the engine wll produce the same power with less boost.i also didn't notice if there was a budget set forth to make this dream a reality.if you want to play hardball(10's is hardball)you gotta pay to play.there are many buick people out there that can build you a stage motor that'll survive the riggors of crawling in summer gridlock and repeated banzai runs down the 1/4.it all comes down to money do you have 20k(that's right) to throw at a car to make it consistent,reliable,and fearsome?by the time you upgrade the suspension,tranny,and subframe of the vehicle(i assume a 3rd gen)you will spend that easily.if you want reliability and every once and a while embarras a viper or 911 turbo owner(most likely you'll be the only one running 11's in your area) go with the 3.8 buick swap,with a girdle,good rod bolts,and steel caps longevity wont be your problem(gas prices tires,and brake pads however will be).good luck with your plans.

 

thanks to all of you fer tossin in the ideas.. i been thinkin about it a bit, and i do like the idea of the 3.8.. but first i have to buy the third gen hehe.. found a pretty nice one finally for around 2k.. i think i may just end up picking it up.. unfortunately i live up in seattle so camaros in decent shape that are for sale are pretty rare.. so hopefully ill pick it up within a couple weeks, get the engine swap done by the end of summer or so maybe.. then again, im not sure if i want to go to all the trouble cause i really dont want a roll cage in my car, but no tracks (that i've found at least) will let me run 10s without one.. hmm anyway.. thanks again for all the advice, really do appreciate you guys takin the time!!

 

see this if you want to know: http://darcom.home.texas.net/darcom/Z28_PAGEx.html

 

Ahh thats alright but it was 107K miles Its no use in arguing. I was once driving a Big Block car with a Carb calling GN's Grand Nothings. You can't say anything to make people believe! They think your full of crap and no way can that thing do that and bla bla bla. Just keep racing with your V6 and let them throw thousands into there cars to catch ya

 

Actually the only difference is the TTA crank is cross drilled. Otherwise its the same cast iron POS. Its pretty weak though... Only really good till mid 10s.

It may look like crap but the Stock Crank, Rods and Pistons are in MANY MANY MANY cars running 10s. They are not weak pieces.

 

Not really on Topic but Steve did I show you the pics of the motor? We tore is apart last week. Off to the machine shop she goes

Look at this POS, I cant belive this thing went low 11s. 500+ Runs and 107K of Serious Punishment.



Here is is sittin on the Crane. What a wolf in sheeps clothing



Just a side shot to show its 12 years of Rust and Grime. Notice the 3 plugs instead of 4? hehehe





Look how clean that is... First time the intake has ever been off the motor. 107K miles...



Just a shot with the heads off. Notice the low compression Pistons...


Can't wait to drive it again with a new motor. This thing is going to Haul *** with Ported Heads, Cam and Bigger Turbo

 

Who would think thats a low 11 second motor huh
Looks good for the mileage though,here are some of my motor.Waiting for a new subframe but as it sits now it's all wired up and ready to drop in
http://www.tta850.com/EnginePic8.jpg
http://www.tta850.com/EnginePic9.jpg
http://www.tta850.com/Assmbl02.jpg
http://www.tta850.com/Assmbl03.jpg
http://www.tta850.com/Assmbl05.jpg


Steve