Well, me and the buddys might have a nice big shop on the go pretty soon. He needs somewhere to build his yenko up and tinker on the truck and i need somewhere to tinker on the camaro and the sleds!


So that only leaves me with a nice warm place out of the elements to do a nice big project on the camaro

That being said, im once again looking back into the forced induction setups!

As the car sits right now (in the snowbank under many feet of snow) it has no induction at all. So that leaves me with alot to account for...

So, heres the questions!

#1 - Buying a carb, bonnet & manifold is about the same price as a stealth ram setup. Which would be better for a twin turbo setup, ease of tune, finicky, ect..?

#2 - what kind of goodies would be involved to tune the stealth ram?

#3 - would their be a better means of fueling a mild TT 355 other than the SR that is in the same ballpark price?(the cheaper the better )



Either way i go with this the fuel and ignition is definately getting upgrades and the heads are coming off as none of the current stuff is even close to being boost friendly.

As long as i can stop buying crap for my sled funds shouldnt be a problem for this...


This could probably be found by searching but i have just spent the last few days searching and have barely even made a mark in the million different threads on the subject!

 

carb vs. efi. It all depends on what you have for parts already. I converted from carb to EFI for $900. That was with a used LT1 intake I did the mods on, all the water lines & thermostat box, stock LT1 TB, K&N air filter, gaskets, 255LPH Walbro, new fuel lines, modified sending unit for EFI, new small cap distributor, new plug wires, GM harness from the junkyard, 730 ECM from the junkyard, new AUJP PROM, 24 #/hr injectors (used-$85). It all adds up quick. I already had the PROM tuning equipment.

If you have the shop and tools then you can make the bonnet, mod the carb yourself, build the pipes and stuff. It would be a lot cheaper going carb if you did it all yourself vs. doing EFI yourself. In terms of the Stealth Ram, it needs tuning on any engine it is put on so you need equip. for that. I like EFI because of the cold start and drivability. Personally, I would only go carb if it was on the street for weekends and was mainly race. I am not saying not to go carb. I don't like them for the street daily driver cars.

A TPI unit or LT1 intake would also be fine for the TT setup. Overall, it cost me $900 to put the used EFI stuff on. Another $2000 roughly for all of the TT stuff using good used turbos without an intercooler. I think you could squeek by for $1000 doing the mods yourself with a carb setup.

 

Well, like i said i am starting off with a clean slate here. I can go either way (carb/efi) with this thing!


Im almost tempted to just get those junk SSAC turbo headers off ebay and a pair of their $200 turbos just to see if i can break something

Im really leaning back towards going EFI, ive never done an EFI setup on something like this before. So it would present a good challenge i guess! I was reading the manual for the HSR (about 900 pages long...) and all i would need is my laptop and alot of hours to tune the ECM.

 

You would need two, but I just got this new in box turbo for $170 delivered to my door...
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https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/power-adder/399773-turbo-660-under-way.html
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I think you should go for it!
I'm going to use my stock ECM for now, what is it you have access to?
You have NO intake at all?
You got a motor yet?

 

This is the one i was just looking at, SSAC has a pile of these on e-scam

• 3" INLET DIAMETER
• 2" OUTLET
• WET FLOATING BALL BEARINGS
• 1/8 NPT OIL INLET

These are going for $173ca each right now... HAHA! just found them listed in their store under 'turbochargers' for only 169.99 buy it now compared to the 200 buy it now listed under 'turbo'

As for acess to used parts, that is very very very limited up here. Theirs a whole lot of nothing in the small junkyard we have!


Yes i do have the engine, its the one i built last year. this september when i parked the car i sold the intake and carb to my buddy. The car was originally a canadian non ECM LG4, so its barebones as far as the big rats-nest of wiring goes.

The heads (416s) are coming off, i could barely keep the thing from detonating on 91 some days and thats n/a not to mention throwing some boost at it! As of right now i dont really plan on an intercooler unless i can get one cheap as dirt. I dont want to run much boost at all since everything else behind the motor will explode

 

Yeah, your biggest enemy is detonation!
daves12secv6 has been running an e-bay turbo for a while now and getting a consistant 400+ rwhp @ 16psi out of a 3.1 (which is 8.9scr)!
I got mine from "Just Intercoolers" an e-bay store that sells some quality stuff, but geared towards imports. Just be careful there is a lot of junk on there, but if you saw how easy it is to rebuild a Garrett turbo, you would see why they're so cheap. I've got a pair in my garage from a 300zxtt, but they're too small for your application. I decided to go with a large single.
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You really need to see what you can get for an intake with what you're willing to spend.

 

The only problem i have with getting the cheap SSAC junk is having to hack in a wastegate. I dont think the headers could take any hacking! LOL


As for an intake im pretty much up in the air for that, it really doesnt matter to me. I just want something that wont be too tempermental with a couple pounds of boost and fits under the hood!

 

I'm putting my ext. wastegate in the Y-pipe. But you can get a bolt-on internal wastegate to solve that issue. Like this...

 

Yes, that is the style of WG i was looking for. That way i wouldnt have to chop up the header, just a bit of rigging on the downpipe!

But i dont see a whole lot of cheepie ones on e-scam

 

Or you could use these - they cost about $20 each, which is what I'll be using to eliminate some welding..

Here's a link, but the auction will be ending soon...
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/T3-T3-adaptor-with-wastegate-port_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ33631QQihZ015QQitemZ250060534649QQrdZ1

 

Those are neat too! Didnt know they made such an animal...


Im not too familiar with turbo setups/configuration, but wouldnt that put the wastegate very close if not interfere with the compressor/turbine housings?

 

Not necessariily, they could be turned either direction.
Or you could use this and make a pipe to connect to it and put the W/G anywhere it will fit.
I'm actually in the process of buying my stuff now (I should be studying for my FL comm. GC test I'm taking next Tue!) so as I run into things, I'll hook you up with the links.
Seems like in your case it might be easier to carb, just saw some twturbo stuff like manifolds with W/G ports already in them and bonnets for a blow-through twin turbo carb.

 

I dont know... I think the stealthram would be an easier setup to deal with....

Since its EFI you can control the fueling ALOT better than you could ever do on a carb (whether thats a good or bad thing i dont know...) and after reading all the BS about turbulence causing major headaches on the short bonnets for blow through carbs that makes me want the EFI even more!


I dont know... Just dreaming for now anyways!

 

The thing with the SSAC / E-bay turbos is that all the specs are mixed up and the same pictured unit will have different specs under different ads. How do you know what you are actually buying? Every time I ask the seller for the specs they won't respond.

 

You have to do A LOT of shopping to find reputable sellers!
I got a nice turbo off e-bay, and davees12secv6 has put quite a few miles on his with no problems. The good sellers will put a graph on the listing.
Beside if you stick with a brand-name turbo, you should know what you are getting - except the quality of the bearings. If you have the bread to spend make sure you get ball or ceramic bearings

Here's mine...
(Turbo 660 is under way!)https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/power-adder/399773-turbo-660-under-way.html

 

I hear you about finding a reputable seller. The problem is that I can't figure out who is reputable because none of them will give the real specs.

Since you have one of the ebay turbos, does it match the specs from the AD they posted in terms of compressor trim and wheel size? Where can you buy parts and/or a rebuild kit for it? Is the compressor housing epoxied or glued together.

Some ADs say ball bearing, but when asked what the bearing are made out of they won't respond. I can't see buying one of these if I can't get the EXACT specs because I read A LOT of horry stories about returns to these type of companies.

Anyone know of a site that lists the real specs for the Ebay so-called T04E, GT66, GT42, GT45, etc. Also, it appears that there are multiple manufacturers for the no-name E-buy turbos so that makes it even tougher. The main reason I stay away from them is because of the shortfall on real specs. I wish it was more clear and the sellers were more honest. I just can't see spending $150 to $400 on something and not really know what I am getting. How did you find out the the "Just Intercooler" specs were real before you ordered the part? Did someone measure the turbo and see the specs they listed were real?

Thanks,

 

I measured the turbine wheels and yes thay are correct.
As far as the compressor housing, it is solid cast aluminum.
The thing is, if you kind of know about turbos you can see what hot and what cold sides are being used. If they are Garrett products they're really tough, and unless there are cracks and such in the housings they are quite easy to rebuild. The way I see it is if I've got the turbo set up on my car and this one only lasts 5-10,000 miles, then I feel as though I got my $$$ worth. If you want to spend $2500 on a pair of turbos, then go for it! Turbos are becoming so abundant now that you can go to the junk yard and grab something off a car with good housings and for less than $100 have running units. A Garrett .63 exhaust housing is going to be the same on all .63 Garrett housings (even though the downpipe and/or intake bolt patterns are different for different applications). That is where we get the "hybrids" is from taking a T3 exhaust housing and putting a T4 intake side on it.
As far as I have researched for all this, I have noticed that most ALL of the center sections are identical, and only 2 sizes of bearings (Garrett/Airesearch/turbonetics products).

 

you can buy a used holset diesel turbo for about 200$, they are way more reliable than SSAC turbos. a guy was selling one on turbomustangs he might still have it, if you want his name shoot me a PM.(it's not me, i almost bought it but changed directions) it was an h2d, good to 700hp.

 

BTW what is SSAC?

 

Since your starting from scratch anyways maybe look into getting the steathram and using Megasquirt engine managment computer. I believe it comes with a 3 bar map sensor and it's cheap but it's more of a DIY project, think it would fill your needs.

Here is a link to give you a idea what it's about, might even go this way myself.

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/dfi-...t-install.html

 

That is good to hear that the castings are one piece and not two-piece glued like some of the SSAC (SS AutoChrome) early stuff. Yes, the unit you have is a T3 turbine size with T4 compressor size. I was asking about rebuild kits for the SSAC turbos.....where are yo going to buy yours? None of the Ebayer sellers will tell me where I can buy an SSAC turbo rebuild kit. Garret kits are easy to get. Yes, turbos are not hard to rebuild, but you need the parts to do it.

I have always used junkyard stuff, but the SSAC stuff has me interested and I like to learn about this turbo stuff in general. Are you saying that your turbo has a Garrett labeled center section? If not, then the rebuild kit will be different and could be impossible to get.

I was more interested in one of the GT45 (70mm inducer wheel) ebay knock-off units. The turn-off is the "5 bolt exhaust flange", "ball bearing journals", unknown trim, etc. Biggest thing is the availability of rebuild kits and if the compressor housing is glued together. The turbo I looked at is tagged like the one you have. Not the same size or series but the same tag location making me think that it is built half decent.

 

If you have calipers, measure the bearings, and the specs are given when you buy a rebuild kit.
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If you want I have a m24 (T3, think they're the short bearings) from a Nissan TT, I'll just go in the garage and measure it for you!
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As far as the "knock-offs" you have to remember that the Garretts are cast parts! This means to reproduce it, you just buy a brand new unit then make a mold. The machining is easy these days also so even the knock offs are duplicates of the real thing.
If you look around, you'll see this with so many things anymore. For example, I fly R/C Helicopters (electric for now) and I just got a top of the line model for last Christmas (cost about $160 for the fusilage only). Last year I bought a "knock-off" on line for $125 ready to fly. In Feb, I had a nasty crash and was able to take the parts off the cheapie and put them on the "real thing"!
After closer examination these two models were INDENTICAL IN ALL ASPECTS! Had I known this earlier, I would have kept the "cheapie" - (with the exception of the motor upgrades etc.).

 

That Nissan unit is a T25. On the T3 turbos theree is 3 or more bearing/seal arrangements. I guess you might be able to piece together a kit from Garrett stuff for the unit you have. You would need the different kits to mix and match assuming the seal bearing arrangement is the same. Do you have a pic of the turbo apart?
It would be nice to know if a kit is already made for these things. I would hate to get a turbo and have to throw it out after 30K miles when I could have bought a known brand that would last longer and be cheaper in the long run.

I am not knocking the E-bay / SSAC turbos. The more info I get about them the better. I learned a lot about them from you in this post. For me the big thing is spending $350 for a new knock-off GT42 (called GT45 in E-bay sellers ADs) and having it fall apart or not being able to get a rebuild kit. I know the re-sale is $0 on these things and the E-bay vendors basically have a no-return policy. I know I could try to match up some parts for a rebuild kit but no shops around here like when you walk in with a no-name unit and ask for parts & pieces. They tell you to throw it out and buy a real rebuilt turbo that was rebuilt by them. It is tough to spend $200 on a new no-name when a used name brand unit is $200. I still really want to try one of the knock-off GT45s next year for some strange reason. I am also wondering how the turbines hold up......some 1980's Garrett turbines tended to crack from heat rather easily.

 

well, if i bought a pair of the $170 turbos and as long as they could send me a matching pair i wouldnt really care. As long as they could hold up for one of or short summers thats definately getting my moneys worth from it!

What can you expect when you buy a $170 turbo compared to a $1700???? Same with their headers....


Ill do somer eading up on the megasquirt, but buying the barebones HSR is not much cheaper than getting it with the ECM and fuel pump and all the goodies!

 

What if the $170 turbos take out engine parts too? A comparable Garrett turbo to the $170 knock-off is about $400 bucks each or roughly double the price so if they last 100K - 200K miles then they are cheaper in the long run.

I am not here to argue which if the SSAC / Ebay turbos are good or bad. I am just interested in any info on them and if they are worth trying later on. For me, I need something that will stay together and is rebuildable. I can buy used Garrett T04Es for $150 and do a $75 rebuild. I am more interested in the reliability actual real specs of the Ebay units because the specs are usually all over the place and do not make sense like a trim number with a "mm" on the end, or inducer wheel dia. that is the actual inducer inlet OD, stuff like that which is just to make the numbers look big to impress the unknowing.

The MS-II is a good buy if you want to go EFI. It is cheap for EFI, but more than $0 for a carb you already have. Isn't the HSR with everything around $2,000? I thought you wanted to spend little. I would put more money into the turbo than an intake manifold.

 

The complete HSR setup w ecm is about $2500us

I would rather spend a little (or alot more) on the fueling because i can keep that around for future upgrades or motors. The turbos is basically just a fun thing to try out for a summer as i know the car cant handle a whole lot of power at the moment! basically just a cheap setup mainly for eye candy until i get everything else built up enough, then i would buy some big turbos and see how much boost i can ram down this poor 350s throat

 

Not to mention, when the turbo DOES go - your car is already set up for the "better" one!
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No it's actaully an authentic M25 Garrett, I am only aware of two Garrett carbon seals and two sizes of bearings - so that would be four possible combinations. The difference would be how the compressor housing is attached - if your replacing all the bolts etc.(there's a few different ones).
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I'll get sme pics an a couple of hours, I'ts time to take care of the kids' dinner...

 

More pics would be great. I took a look at the sellers AD and it says this for that T04E unit:

Compressor .50 A/R Compressor
Turbine .63 A/R Turbine
Compressor Wheel .57 T Compressor Wheel
Exducer: 3"
Inducer:2"
Turbine Wheel Exducer: 2.2"
Inducer:2.58"
Hot Side .58 5 Bolt Standard Hot Side

So, the trim is 100 * (2/3)^2 = 45 Trim which is alot like the Garrett T04E 46 Trim T4.
I don't get what the "compressor wheel .57 T compressor wheel" means. The Turbine is listed as .63 A/R and from the pic looks like a T3 turbine. I don't get what the "Hot Side .58 5 bolt Stand Hot side means". I get the 5 bolt part.......but what is the .58?

Hopefully, the pics will explain it. Yes, you are right on the seal bearing stuff. There is only two T3 seal/bearing setups that I know of too. The seller you bought from is the first one I have seen to actual post pics with measurements. It takes out so much guessing and trying to interpret the words in the AD.

 

Here's how the ad for mine reads,

• T3 Flange to Manifold
• 5 Bolt Downpipe Flange
• 3" Inlet & 2" Outlet
• Computer Balanced Individually

Is that one you got from cxracing?

 

This link posts the most info about the turbo you have. It is a dead ringer for the turbo in your thread.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/T3-T4...58797395QQrdZ1

The compresser trim is 100*(2.07/2.36)^2 = 77 trim. Which matches nothing in Garrett's T4 series compressor wheels that I know of. That 77 trim seems VERY high. Other Ebay sellers are listing that same turbo all over the place. It seems that $170 is the cheapest shipped unit. Most sell as is with no returns unless it is the wrong component that was shipped. That is, most have no warranty. Some give a 1 year warranty but do not say what is covered by it. If you ask them they do not seem to respond to that question. It seems they are all the same T3/T4 with different sticker on them.

I think 89JYTurbo bought one of these T3/T4 units years ago and had problems. I hope they have since resolved them. It had bearing oiling problems. If you are curious, do a search here for 89JYTurbo's post about his TT Camaro.

Either way, for $170 it is going to be a lot of fun.

EDIT: The closest Garrett compressor wheel I could find is a 100*(1.9/2.367) = 60 trim super T3. That flows at max. of 36 lb/min peak. If I had to guess, that thing flows about 40 - 45lb/min peak at 65% efficiency. Just a guess and plenty for a V6.

 

Here's my actual winning bid...
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=013&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWN%3AIT&viewitem=&item=230056488104&rd=1&rd=1
Where did you get that formula?

 

That AD doesn't have the compressor wheel sizes so the trim is unknown along with how much air it will flow.

I did a google search for "stone mountain turbo". That seems to be popular with the Chinese brand turbos. I clicked on a link for Waystar GT45 turbos. Eventually, I got to this page:

http://chinasuppliers.alibaba.com/se...cts/Turbo.html

It shows there are a lot of Chinese turbo manufacturers so you never know what you will end up with. They could be the same company with a bunch of different names like some ebay sellers. Who knows?

Not that any of this matters. I was just curious about the Ebay turbos. I hope yours works out well.


EDIT: Judging by the pics in the link you posted. The comp. wheel inducer is 2" just like the SSAC AD I was talking about. I would bet the exducer is 2.367 and it is a 77 trim. It sure looks like the exact same turbo that SSAC sells.

http://flypower.en.alibaba.com/produ...bocharger.html


EDIT AGAIN: Check out this AD from just-intercoolers. It looks like the same compressor with a T4 turbine. The compressor is 2.07" inducer, 2.36" exducer wheel (77 trim). Same as SSAC and other ebay sellers.

The T4 turbine has no flange for a V-band, but the AD says it is a V-band. More confusion from Ebay turbo sellers.

 

It is the generic formula for trim: 100 * (minor_diam / major_diam). Go to www.turbobygarrett.com and check out the turbo tech pages 1,2,3. It gives all the info you may need.

 

You forgot to convert to mm. The turbos are listed in inches.
Thanx for the hook-up!
Inducer diameter = 53.1mm
Exducer diameter = 71.0mm

 

Nah, the units cancel so it doesn't matter if it is inches or mm. You exducer size is wrong. You used 71.1 mm or 2.79". The AD says 2.36" or 60mm.

http://www.made-in-china.com/showroo...-T3-T04E-.html

It lists a max. KW of 155KW which is 155*1.34 = 207 HP. That seems low to me. I would have guessed at 350 - 400HP. The 207 is probably for diesel applications, so gas is very roughly 2X that amout or 414 HP.

 

Woohoo, I finally found all the specs on the turbo you bought.

http://www.made-in-china.com/showroo...3-T4-T04E.html

The specs for this one make a lot more sense. Check out the wheel specs.

http://www.made-in-china.com/china-p...bocharger.html

Here is the one I was looking at:

http://mgpracing.en.alibaba.com/offe...ger_GT45_.html


An interesting read:

http://www.calaisturbo.com.au/showthread.php?t=62965

 

Yeah, I came up with .73 trim. I'm going to take off the comp housing and actually measure them...I'll be back

 

No, I just highlighted that by accident from the example on the Garrett site.
My turbo is advertised as 2.58ind, 2.2exd.
I realized after that it wouldn't make a difference w/mm and inches when using ratios.


425rwhp is about what dave got out of his, I'm glad we started talking - you really pay attention!

 

I think we were posting at the same time, this thread suddenly got confusing! Yeah that makes more sense .55 trim is what I came up with, not the advertised .57

EDIT: I guess that turbo your looking at is going on a SBC, not a 6er?

 

Way to jack my thread guys!

 

what kind of headers are you going to use? is there anyone that makes them aftermarket? or are you going to make your own?

 

SSautochrome makes a set of twin turbo stainless steel headers, they have them up on e-scam all the time for a couple hundred bux.

But they are not known for their strength so they will need some good bracing if a guy wants to get some life out of them!

 

I was wondering when that was comming...
.
.
Even though they look good stainless is really too soft to use for headers, if you can find mild steel it would be better.

 

What? No.

SS usually has a higher creep temperature, and that's pretty key. Hopefully it's an L grade off SS, so you can weld to it.

You can buy weld-els, in SS, and make your own log style headers (or any style you wish). That's thick and strong, and will hold in the heat well. This way you can make them fit your engine bay, and put your wastegate in a good location (in the same direction as the piping is going).

Have you read the book "Maximum boost"? I'd recommend it, I just got it a few months ago, a really good read! I got it on chapters.ca with free shipping if the order is over $39, IIRC.

How far is yellowknife from anchorage? My brothers up in AK.

 

He was talking about the cheap SS Auto Chrome versions, though. Without looking at them physically it's hard to say what kind of quality thay are - even if they LOOK really good.
One simple way to check the quality is if a magnet will stick to it, but how could you tell that form that e-bay ad.

 

Can i try sticking the magnet to my monitor?


From some of the horror stories kicking around with the SSAC headers they seem to be failing near the welds. Looks like its due to the SS itself that weakens and breaks off but it could also be from welding it way too hot and the ended up melting the collectors thus thinning out that area of the metal.

 

Well, if a magnet sticks to it, it's not SS, it's going to be some steel variant. I'm not sure how that will tell the quality? You can have a high quality steel or SS version. Although i'd prefer SS due to it's thermal conductivity, creep characteristics, and the whole no rust thing.

oh yea, the SSAC stuff, regardless of the material used, is going to be of poor quality due to thin materials and lack of bracing, etc.

I was mentioning that book because they give a few charts on how to size things, like flange thickness. A 3/8" thick flange is pretty rediculously thick from a normal point of view, but when you get right down to it, its basically the minimum to avoid distortion. Also, chopping your header flange between bolt holes, to avoid warping.

If it's not an L grade of SS, it'll form a "knife edge" at the weld point, and crack.

 

Not to mention, a good weld is as strong or stronger than the metal. If in the case of the weld being stronger, it will break at the weakest point. And remember your hanging an extra 20 or so pounds on them.
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Look at the pretty colors!
----------
That's what I was getting at. True stainless is NOT magnetic.
A good example is the cheap SS barbeque grills at Home depot, a magnet will stick to some parts and not others, even the entire thing will never rust and is "stainless".(I know I was given one for my wedding).

 

Im not sure if you guys have seen the pic but i saw a pic floating around where someone used the SSAC headers and made up a set of brackets that bolted to the accessory holes in the heads and slipped between the turbo and header flanges. Looked like a very good idea as the header wouldnt even have to support its own weight anymore, let alone the turbo!