Hey guys im new to this forum and am working on an l98 twin turbo build. i have been looking for some grand national turbos then i came across these used ones and was wondering if these are worth buying and if they will work well with a rebuild. http://www.spooledmotorsports.com/tu...iviera_3.8L%29

thanks for the help guys

/robby

 

anybody have any feedback? i think they are close to the grand national ones just not sure of the specs for the gn ones. anyone got any idea?

 

It has been my experience and as a general rule of thumb you always look for turbos that came on engines with atleast your amount of displacement or more. So if these came on the largest engine being a 2.2. That's only 4.4 liters for a twin setup. You have a 5.7 so I would say that you will probably over run these turbos and spin them up to high. I would look for turbos from a thunderbird or a 300zx or the like. Maybe a couple or subaru sti turbos would be the min.

 

Twin T3's will do you just fine and get you well into your 400-450HP goal.
For $325 each those better already have been rebuilt.

head over to theturboforums and read all 66 pages of this post

How long till it grenades? 9.65 @142.46 on drag radials!
http://www.theturboforums.com/smf/in...?topic=61219.0

Its a junkyard 150k mile 350. With small T3 hybrid turbos.

 

This is a list of all turbos that can be used for a twin turbo setup.
http://www.theturboforums.com/smf/in...p?topic=4365.0

BUICK GNX 87 3.8L GAR TB0348
BUICK Monte Carlo/Regal 78-83 3.8L carbed GAR TB0348
BUICK Riviera 80-85 3.8L GAR TB0308
BUICK Grand National/T-Type 86-87 3.8L (Intercooled) GAR TB0348 (TA48)
BUICK Trans Am 89 3.8L GAR TB0348 (water)
BUICK Century 78 3.8L GAR TB0301
BUICK Century 79 3.8L GAR TB0304
BUICK Century 80 3.8L GAR TB0308
GMC Syclone/Typhoon 4.3L Mitsu TDO6 17C/10cm2

CHRYSLER Conquest, Intercooled 87 2.6L MHI TD05
CHRYSLER Laser (Auto) 90-94 2.2L MHI TD04 13g
CHRYSLER Laser (Manual) 90-94 2.2L MHI TD05H 14b
CHRYSLER LeBaron 89-92 2.5L MHI TE04H
CHRYSLER LeBaron 88 2.5L MHI TE04H
CHRYSLER New Yorker 88 2.5L MHI TE04H
CHRYSLER New Yorker 84-87 2.2L GAR TB0335
CHRYSLER Town & Country 88 2.2L MHI TE04H
CHRYSLER Town & Country 84-87 2.2L GAR TB0335
CHRYSLER Charger/Shelby 87-90 2.2L GAR TB03 (water)
CHRYSLER Shelby CSX-Daytona/Baron GTC/Shadow ES 89-90 2.2L GAR TB03 VNT (variable nozzle)

DODGE 600 88 2.5L MHI TE04H
DODGE 600 85-87 2.2L GAR TB0335
DODGE Aries 88 2.2L MHI TE04H
DODGE Caravan 89-90 2.5L MHI TE04H
DODGE Conquest (Intercooled) 87 2.6L MHI TD05
DODGE Daytona 89-92 2.5L MHI TE04H
DODGE Daytona Shelby 88 2.2L MHI TE04H
DODGE Daytona Shelby 84-87 2.2L GAR TB0335
DODGE Lancer 89 2.5L MHI TE04H
DODGE Lancer 88 2.5L MHI TE04H
DODGE Lancer 85-87 2.2L GAR TB0335
DODGE Omni 85-87 2.2L GAR TB0335
DODGE Shadow 89-92 2.5L MHI TE04H
DODGE Shadow 88 2.5L MHI TE04H
DODGE Shadow 87 2.2L GAR TB0335
DODGE Spirit 89-92 2.5L MHI TE04H

EAGLE Talon (Manual) 90-94 2.0L MHI TD05H 14b
EAGLE Talon (Auto) 90-95 2.0L MHI TD04 13g
EAGLE Talon (Manual) 95-98 2.0L MHI T25 (45 trim)

FORD Mustang GT 85-86 2.3L GAR TB0344
FORD Mustang GT/T-bird 83-84 GAR (AiR) TB0344
FORD Probe GT 88-92 2.2L IHI RHB52W
FORD T-Bird 85-86 2.3L (auto) GAR (AiR) TB0344 (45 trim oil only)
FORD T-Bird 85-86 2.3L (Manual) GAR (AiR) TB03 60 trim (watercooled)
FORD T-Bird 87-88 (water) IHI RHB52
FORD Fiesta 90+ 1.6L GAR T2
FORD Escort 84-86 IHI RHB5

MAZDA 626, MX6 88-92 2.2L IHI RHB52W
MAZDA 323 GTX turbo 88-89 1.6L IHI RHB52W (water)

MERCEDES 300D, SDT, TD 78-84 3.0L GAR TA0301
MERCEDES 300SDL 78-83 3.0L GAR TA0301
MERCEDES 300SDL (Calif.) 86-87 3.0L GAR TB0359

MERCURY Capri 85-86 2.3L GAR TB0344
MERCURY Cougar 85-86 2.3L GAR TB0344
MERKUR XR4Ti 85-88 2.3L GAR TB0344

MITSUBISHI Eclipse (Auto) 90-94 2.2L MHI TD04 13g
MITSUBISHI Eclipse (Manual) 90-94 2.2L MHI TD05H 14b
MITSUBISHI Eclipse (Manual) 95-98 2.0L MHI T25 (45 trim)
MITSUBISHI Galant (Manual) 88-94 2.2L MHI TD05H
MITSUBISHI Starion (Intercooled) 85-87 2.6L MHI TD05

PLYMOUTH Acclaim 89-92 2.5L MHI TE04H
PLYMOUTH Caravelle 88 2.5L MHI TE04H
PLYMOUTH Caravelle 85-87 2.2L GAR TB0335
PLYMOUTH Conquest, Intercooled 85-89 2.6L MHI TD05
PLYMOUTH Laser (Auto) 89-94 2.0L MHI TD04
PLYMOUTH Laser (Manual) 89-94 2.0L MHI TD05H
PLYMOUTH Sundance 89-92 2.5L MHI TE04H
PLYMOUTH Sundance 88 2.5L MHI TE04H
PLYMOUTH Sundance 87 2.2L GAR TB0335
PLYMOUTH Voyager 89-90 2.5L MHI TE04H

PONTIAC Sunbird GT 88-90 2.0L GAR T2
PONTIAC Sunbird GT 84-86 1.8L GAR T2
PONTIAC Grand Prix 89-90 3.1L GAR T25 (water)

SAAB 9000 (16V Intercooled) 87-88 2.0L GAR TB0356
SAAB 900 (16V Intercooled) 87 2.0L GAR TB0339 (Oilcld)
SAAB 900 (16V Intercooled) 84-86 2.0L GAR TB0339 (Oilcld)
SAAB 9000 (16V Intercooled) 85-86 2.0L GAR TB0343
SAAB 900 (8V, APC) 82-84 2.0L GAR TB0321

VOLVO 200 82-84 2.3L GAR TB0313
VOLVO 740 89-93 2.3L MIT TD04H
VOLVO 740 87-89 2.3L MIT TD05
VOLVO 760 89-93 2.3L MIT TD04H
VOLVO 760 87-89 2.3L MIT TD05
VOLVO 780 85-87 2.3L GAR TB0363
VOLVO 780 90 2.3L MIT TD04H
VOLVO 780 87-89 2.3L MIT TD05
VOLVO 940 91-93 2.3L MIT TD04H
VOLVO 200 Watercooled Upgrade 82-84 2.3L GAR TB0368
VOLVO 740 (Oil Cooled) 83-85 2.3L GAR TB0326
VOLVO 740 (Watercooled) 85-87 2.3L GAR TB0363
VOLVO 760 (Oil Cooled) 83-86 2.3L GAR TB0326
VOLVO 760 (Watercooled) 85-87 2.3L GAR TB0363

VW Passat, 97+ (oil) 1.8L GAR GT15

GAR=Garrett=AiResearch, MHI=Mitsubishi Heavy industries, MIT=Mitsubishi


Note that most of them are for engines between 2 and 3 liters. These are the best size for a 5 liter because 2 of them would equal between 4 and 6 liters.

 

I used two Chrysler turbos from spooledmotorsports when I did my first twin setup. They choked the motor really bad starting around 5000rpm. they had .48AR turbine housings though. I have .63AR turbine housings now and the powerband is now longer than it was without turbos. It will pull hard to 6000+ but I always shift before 5700 to keep my motor alive longer.

 

The picture of the turbo is not the same as the description. I have seen their listings on ebay for a while now. The pic usually does not match the turbo specs they list. They mainly sell the .42 A/R comp (40 or 45 trim) and a .48 A/R turbine that came on many vehicles in the late 80s and early 90s.

$325 seems like a lot for a used turbo of that size. You could get a china turbo for about half that and it will flow the same if not more the the specs in that AD. You could get a used name brand single turbo that flowed the same as twins for about $325 or less.

That list that was posted is a generic T3 list. Not all of those turbos are "good" for a 350ci. If you have a choice, the GN and T-type units would be the best because they are the biggest on a production car. A lot of the turbos in that list are 40 or 45 trim T3s with .48 A/R turbines. I think they are too small for a 350ci, but some people run them. I put two 45 trim T3s with .48 A/R turbines on a stock 305ci TPI. Boost comes in at 2000 RPM. That means it would choke a 350ci pretty bad. On a mild 350ci I have two 60 trim T3s with .63 A/R. Boost comes in at 2800 RPM and the turbines flow fine at higher RPM.

That was just some info to help you make the decision. What it really comes down to is how much HP you want and how early you want boost to start. Which do you like better? Early boost and less top end HP, or later boost and max. top end HP?

Also, that turbo you are looking at is water cooled. It is a fair amount of work to make the water lines and where to tap into the system. The turbo will last longer if it is water cooled. Good but not entirely necessary for a street car. A waste for a race car.

 

He plans/wants to run a 335 stroker and wants 425+ish RWHP

 

According to my links that TBO322 is a Ford application with .63 A/R so it is most likely a 60 trim compressor. I could be wrong, you need to verify that. It is good for 300 FWHP. That is what I run and ttypecamaro runs.

It should spool quick with two of those and be good for about 600 FWHP. The smaller T3 45 trim, .48 A/R are good for about 220 FWHP or about 440 FWHP as a pair.

 

thanks for the help guys and i scrapped the 335 build like you said. i found a 350 4 bolt main for 275$ to drop in the bird and im upgrading injectors for the project anyways so the tpi should work fine. just trying to find turbos that aren't gonna run me 1000+. i did read all that thread on the grenade that thing is amazing im gonna try to replicate it with higher flowing heads and a turbo friendly cam. anyways thanks for the info guys gonna be ordering all the prep parts here in the next week or two. then all i need is some decent turbos and to fabricate the setup.

 

tuning will be the key to keep anything alive like the grenade. e-mail replied on the two T3's I can get ya hooked up with.

 

Since it is a $275 engine then I wouldn't be afraid to run two ebay/china T4/T3 hybrids for $175 each shipped. I think the comp flows for a little over 400 FWHP.

If you plan on replicating what "engine grenade" did, then two T3s are NOT going to get you there. You need two T4/T3 or GNX turbos. The 60 trim T3s wouldn't do it. You are limited to hybrids, T4s, or T6 framed units. If it was me and I was trying to duplicate what he did then I would just get a brand new S400 for $600. It would also give you room to grow later on.......up to 1000 HP. If you want to do it cheaper you could run the ebay turbo as twins for a little over 800 HP and the cost would be $350 shipped. I would be tempted to do that on a $275 engine. Both the S400 and ebay turbos are oil cooled only so it is a more simple intstall.

I have never tried an S400 or ebay turbo, but you can search here and at turbomustangs for results from people that have used them. Dave12secv6 has used the ebay turbo as a single and I think it was making a little over 400 HP. People at turbomustangs have S400 on engines near 1000 HP.

BTW, the cam "engine grenade" had was just about perfect for his setup from my point of view. He had about -2* of overlap and a short duration.

 

ya tuning should be fun but im going with a standalone ecu. the spectre engine managment system pro. its about the same price as the 950 commander and supposably works well on boosted applications and comes with a 4 bar map setup. you can look it up on jegs i think it should be a good setup but we will see. im not sure on the s400 specs im assuming you are talking about a single turbo setup with that. ya i wasnt sure about cam i was gonna talk to one of the cam companies about it. if that cam would work good then i may try that they arent to expensive. thanks for the help and great info guys.

 

Yes, the S400 would be a single setup. It would also spool later than the twin setup if you used a stock S400. A low budget $275 engine and twin ebay "57 trim TO4E, .63 T3s" for $350 and the GM L82 cam sounds like fun.

I have been eye balling the GM L82 cam. It is 222* I/E @.050 and 114 LSA. It has -5* of overlap and decent duration. Elgin, Speed-Pro, etc. make this cam for about $60 - $100 including lifters.

 

so the china turbos you are talking about are these? http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/T3-T4...spagenameZWDVW

well if they wont blow up after just a couple 1/4 runs i may. also found an s400 for 550. appreciate all the info guys im like turbo retarded even though ive been reading just about anything i can find on em.

 

Yes, that is the ebay turbo I was referring to. You can read here at TGO and at turbomustangs about them. There are a lot less complaints about them these days. Some say it is still hit or miss with them. Dave12secv6 has gone 12.4 sec on a V6 with over 20K miles.

What size wheels does that S400 have for 550? Got a link for it? S400 is a series so it can be all over the place with wheels. The S400 with a 75mm inducer compressor wheel has a map that is good for about 1000 HP. The OEM turbine is a 3.46x3.76 wheel with a 1.32 A/R. The S400 normally has a 1 year warranty.

It is a tough call....two for $350 that will spool fast and do 800 HP and no real warranty or one for $600 that will spool slower and do 1000 HP with a 1 year warranty. Or spend $650 on the two spooledmotorsports that will spool fast and are good for about 600 HP with a 30 day warranty. The other option is the ebay GT45 with a real flange on the turbine (some are weld-on flange). They go for about $350 and should flow for up to 700-750 HP (65mm comp. inducer I think). Warranty is probably non-existant with these turbos.

The choice is up to you.

 

I am really happy with my ebay turbos. about 5000 miles on them and they work like new. No shaft play at all and zero turbo lag. The compressor wheels measure the same as a 46 trim T04E.

My only problem with the ebay turbos is the internal wastegate hole is too small for a V8. I drilled them out to 28mm and have never had a problem since. Besides an hour to remove the turbos and an hour to put 'em back on, it took about 5 minutes each to mark and hand drill the holes bigger for internal wastegates. If you use external wastegates you don;t need to mess with it.

If you can find a "best offer" auction for these turbos... I recently offered $125 each for two, they counter offered $138, and I counter offered $130 and they took it. I got 2 turbos for $308 shipped. I haven't used them yet, but I couldn't pass up the deal given my good experiences with the ones I paid $325 each for a couple years ago.

 

here is the s400 link http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Borg-...QQcmdZViewItem

i was also wondering what flange type the s400 was...i thought it looked almost like a t4 style flange but im not exactly sure. well im kind of undecided the s400 seems good especially the warranty and from what i hear is not normally much of a problem like some of the cheap chinese ones but im looking to get the turbo/s spooled up between 2500-3000 rpm. anyone know if it is hard to route the downpipe on 3rd gens with the s400?

thanks alot guys this really is helping me out and im sure some other newbies can get some good info out of this.

 

I haven't heard anything about the new ebay/china turbos failing. It seems the quality problem is under control now. firstfirebird measured his ebay turbos and they came out to 46 trim TO4E compressors. Have you measured the turbine wheel and turbine A/R?

That makes sense the T3 wastegate hole is normally designed for about 200 HP or so of exhaust. With the TO4E compressor the HP potential and exhaust flow is much greater and therefore more needs to be bypassed around the .63 A/R turbine.

That is a good deal. It is odd how the price fluctuates so much on these units.

 

That is a 71mm inducer comp. wheel and it is the standard turbine wheel and turbine A/R. You would be better off looking at the Dallasturbo.com S400 with the 75mm wheel for $15 more.

The S400 has a T6 flange and the entire turbo is physically HUGE compared to the ebay TO4E turbos. You would have an easier time fitting the two ebay turbos than the S400 turbo. Quick spool with the S400 and 1.32 A/R large wheel at 2500-3000 RPM is NOT going to happen. I would guess that it will spool at around 3600-4200 RPM on a stock 350ci. The twin ebay TO4E with .63 A/R turbines should spool 2500-3000 RPM.
The ebay units will make less top end HP but spool quicker when compared to the S400. It is a trade-off of spool time vs. top end HP.

 

well im not really to worried about having like 1000hp just want 500+ rwhp with some wicked acceleration since its not just a drag car i will drive it on weekends etc. and want to really blow the doors off some tuners. since we are on the topic of ebay a little bit to are some of the twin headers even worth it or should i just go over to a machinist and have them fabbed up since i dont have my own garage/tools to do it...i may be able to do it myself though i got to check with the auto hobby shop on base to see if they got some welding ****.

 

One other thing to mention. The "grenade engine" started out with GN turbos and T3ish turbines so it spooled fast and made decent HP. He then went to T4 turbos and noticed the large difference in spool time. He talked about maybe spooling it with nitrous. He also made more top end HP with the bigger turbos (bigger turbines). He noticed that he made the same amount of HP with less boost with the T4s. Less exhaust back pressure (bigger turbine) and more efficient compressor (bigger compressor) will make more HP.

That is kind of the decision you have here with the single S400 and the twin ebay T4/T3 hybrids. Try to find a pic of the S400 or go to turbonetics and look at the tech. pages and the "thumper" series measurements and compare that to the T4/T3 hybrid. Big difference. Although, the single turbo saves you from trying to get a downpipe past the brake booster.

 

Well, if all you want is 500+ rwhp then the twin setup is better for you. It is more street friendly due to the turbines and gives you room to grow (and break your block/crank/rods at 800 HP).

If all you want is 600 FWHP or so then the most simple way to do manifolds is like this:
https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/powe...bo-camaro.html
Check out the pics in post #14 of that thread. They are a copy of 89JYCamaro's manifolds, but created for a second gen. Camaro.

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/powe...turbo-tpi.html
Check out the pics in post #6 of that thread. Created for a truck. They would probably fit a thirdgen.

Plain old modified TPI manifolds. You can get them from a junk yard for a TPI or TBI from a truck or thirdgen. Probably around $50 for the pair.

 

I think for what you want( Fun Street Car to mess around with) Twin 60/63 T3's and Stock manifolds made to work like 89JY did.

Give you nice low-mid spool times and as you said that acceleration for toyin around on the street with. Your big problem will be keeping the tires from goin up in smoke with a gob of low end trq.

 

thanks guys im pretty much decided on all the parts and will be ready to order them next payday. only thing ive been wondering about is the ignition for this type of setup. is the tpi distributor good enough if i add an msd ss coil? is a 6al ignition controller necessary? just looking to see where i need to go with this so i get efficient spark.

 

I closed up the gap on my bosch platinum spark plugs to .030", assembled custom 8mm high temp plug wires, and put a summit coil on it. Never had a problem with spark. A system like the MSD6al will make it run better and has other features that stock doesn't. you should be fine as long as everything is in good shape.

 

That is the exact turbo setup I am running. The only part that takes longer during fab is making the water lines and you are limited to 600 FWHP. 650HP maybe pushing it. If the 60 trim T3s / .63 A/R are cheap enough and don't need a rebuild soon then use them. Just keep in mind the water lines.

Yes, traction will be a problem.
----------
I run a stock small cap HEI (1990-92 Camaro) distributor with a MSD blaster 2 coil, Moroso wires, autolite 2 step colder plugs gapped at .032". It will light the air/fuel at 12 PSI. A multi-spark unit would help clean up idle misfires due to the reduce spark gap, but is not necessary.

What did you decide on for manifolds and turbos?

 

Those are the same turbos as I have on my single turbo'd 3.1. I took mine apart and it also measures 46 trim. BUT I bought the one with no WG for $177 delivered and used a 38mm TIAL knock off. I have since picked up a real TIAL 38mm, and sold my old pipes.

I still have the TO4e, and would part with it for $125 plus shipping. (low miles).

 

ok got another question. found some 60# injectors at 43psi would these be to much injector for this type of setup? if so could anyone recommend what # injector i need. think im gonna cheap out on expensive ecms and just get the megasquirt. it sounds like a damn good diy setup. thanks guys

 

Who is the injector manufacturer? High-Z or peak & hold injectors? What fueling mode are you going to run the MS in? What size turbo(s)? What is the max. RPM? What is the engine?

All that stuff matters. The MS is a good unit. Anything DIY with all the code available is a great thing.

 

well it is a 350 tpi in a 87 gta going with twin gn turbos or t04e turbos. dropping compression down to about 8.7:1. not sure about the ms setup i would run im still researching about the megasquirt setup. if i remember right ms has a batch fire mode like the tpi does. as for injectors i was looking at these

http://www.jegs.com/webapp/wcs/store...61385_-1_10299

im not very experienced with fuel injection in a perfomance view. thanks for the help guys.

 

Huh, I’m pretty surprised by large portions of this thread… where to start…

T3’s: People have been doing twins on v8’s with some of the medium and larger T3’s successfully for what, 10, 15 years? There have been a bunch of setups with them on something in the 350/351 range, turning to 6000-6500rpm and making enough power to put a 3400lb or so car into the 9’s. Seems like some of you might not like this (not sure why) but do the math, or look at a compressor map, that works out to something in the 600-650hp range for a pair and the maps agree with something in the 300-325hp range from a 60 trim T3.

The GN turbos are just barely larger than the 60 trim T3’s, or like a very small set of hybrids (they’re supposed to have a compressor map similar to a T04b S-3, even though it’s just a 60 trim cover with .63 a/r exhaust housing.

The S400… it’s an OK turbo. What it really is, is a modern design that is just about right airflow wise to put cars into the 9’s or so, a “happy place” in the market that is available cheap. That’s all fine, but also remember that they came off big, stationary 12.7L or so diesels that didn’t care at all how fast the thing spooled. This thing is big and heavy, not exactly what you’d want to try package in an f-body, and not a good match for most street cars. Yes, people have run some nice times with them, they also were using them on dedicated race cars launching off a trans brake. I wouldn’t recommend the one that most people are running in a street car unless you’re talking about a big chassis with big block cid to spool it.

 

Good to see you are still around. Haven't read any of your posts in a while.

I agree that a 60 trim T3 is good for a 350ci. Yes, they are good for 600-650 HP, but when you take into account the mistakes on the stuff surrounding the turbo for the typical builder......then it comes out on the low side which is 600HP. (run-on)
I just put a pair of T3 .48 A/R turbine, 45 trims on a bone stock 305 ci TPI engine. Boost comes on at 1800 RPM and they max. out at 12 PSI with the aftercooler. It will max. at around 440 HP. Exhaust backpressure is 2.5 times boost pressure (.48 A/R turbine = HIGH) with 2.5" downpipes to dual exhaust. No way is this turbo a good setup as twins for a 350ci. The thing is that they are widely available so a lot of people want to run them into the 10s. It ain't gonna happen.
I don't see a 350ci in the 9s in a 3400lb car with twin T3 60 trims unless it leaves at 600HP off the line with a perfect hook and maintains 650HP the entire way down the track under ideal conditions. I still think mid-10s is the normal max. for that setup.

I think the S400 is a great turbo when factoring in the price. The comp. wheel looks just like a HX wheel so it is nothing new. BW just got with the times that all the other companies have been doing. I think it has enough airflow to go high 8s. Yes, the standard exhaust wheel are large and are happy to go 9s without a lot of backpressure. That means a more reliable engine with more HP. If the smaller (GT42ish) exhaust wheel is installed with the 1.10 A/R turbine then it will spool much quicker (street friendly) and make decent HP. Nothing like the 1.32 A/R HP but good. It is all about what the end user wants.......max. HP or quicker spool. There is a middle of the road, but no matter what some people favor one or the other. As an example, I almost went with the 1.1 A/R (2.92" exhaust wheel) for a 331ci v8 I have. After running the numbers I chose the 1.32 A/R (3.46" wheel). I would lose about 1500 RPM of spool time, but the top end numbers were worth it. Quick spool on a street car with a decent engine isn't a big deal to me because it just blows the street tires off even without boost. I figured a spool at 4000 RPM would work out perfect. Every one has different opinions and taste about spool time.
Yeah, the S400 isn't the greatest turbo ever, but when I compare it to the hit or miss HX or GT buys off of e-bay then it is a decent deal. I still think the HX55 and GT42 are a great compressor for a 350ci and are about the small size as the small S400.