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Curious if any of you guys are logging your MAP and air temp before and after the intercooler to get an idea of intercooler efficiency ?
(and would also give you blower/turbine efficiency data).
I'm seeing about a 20 degree rise from ambient but no idea what my actual outlet temp is or outlet pressure. Thinking about adding some more sensors and using spare channels on the ECU for logging.
The difference between the IAT and MAT runs between 20-30° F under most conditions. I think a 20° rise would be tough to improve upon with an air to air IC without some sort of water spray system, but you can always try.
The difference between the IAT and MAT runs between 20-30° F under most conditions. I think a 20° rise would be tough to improve upon with an air to air IC without some sort of water spray system, but you can always try.
20 from ambient ?
I'm curious what temp the discharge is from the blower. I know if I grab the blower outlet it's hot, and if I grab the elbow before the throttle body it's cold.
I'm also curious how much heat is coming from engine oil lubrication.
Yes, I meant about a 20° F difference relative to ambient.
Here's a hot boost ProCharger D1 dyno pull (C4 corvette) to give an idea of blower discharge temperature for an oil-fed centrifugal supercharger. It was intended to be a low boost/large pulley setup, but I don't know the actual boost on this car, sorry. Blower discharge (MAF air temp) peaks around 230° F on this pull, but I've seen additional data from this car in the vicinity of 260° F. I'd assume a T-trim would be similar. Maybe approaching 300°F if over 12-14 psi.
Im running a TRV25 intercooler and after a wide open pull through first, second and third gear all the way to 6200RPM mine only increases about 18* on a 90* day. Sensor is even mounted before the meth nozzle. I'm running low boost though, 7.1PSI @ 6200RPM
Here's a P600b in another C4 with a small front mount...this one was running pretty hot ~60° rise, but I believe a larger 4" core was eventually installed. Not sure if this log was done with the old 3" or 4" core.
Im running a TRV25 intercooler and after a wide open pull through first, second and third gear all the way to 6200RPM mine only increases about 18* on a 90* day. Sensor is even mounted before the meth nozzle. I'm running low boost though, 7.1PSI @ 6200RPM
I wonder if that core is more efficient than mine in terms of airlfow.
I've had this one on the car since 2012 when I had the procharger. Forget the core size.
Pat: Do you have an IC on your powerdyne C4 now ?
I still have the air/water setup in my basement.. On the fence about it.. Air/air is no maint, but those mustangs and wrx's all run tons of boost with air/water without issues.
I still have the air/water setup in my basement.. On the fence about it.. Air/air is no maint, but those mustangs and wrx's all run tons of boost with air/water without issues.
-- Joe
Yes, I have an old Godspeed type X (buick GN style) along with the powerdyne on my C4...been this way since 2010 or so, I forget. So my own log data is with this combination. Its a 4" core, maybe 18x12x4?
Last edited by tequilaboy; 05-10-2019 at 10:18 AM.
I wonder if that core is more efficient than mine in terms of airlfow.
I've had this one on the car since 2012 when I had the procharger. Forget the core size.
-- Joe
I did quite a bit of reading on intercoolers before I purchased mine. They say that vertical flow intercoolers are vastly superior to horizontal intercoolers, reason being is theres more tubes for air to pass through. I would have thought for sure that shorter tubes would make it worse, but from everything I read, more shorter tubes is better than less longer for cooling air. It also prevents boost loss through the intercooler. I did notice alot of the vertical intercoolers of similar dimensions were rated for "higher" horsepower (what ever that means) than similar sized cores of a horizontal flow pattern. it was a little more than what I wanted to spend on a intercooler, but well worth it IMO. Its pretty frigin small tool.
I did quite a bit of reading on intercoolers before I purchased mine. They say that vertical flow intercoolers are vastly superior to horizontal intercoolers, reason being is theres more tubes for air to pass through. I would have thought for sure that shorter tubes would make it worse, but from everything I read, more shorter tubes is better than less longer for cooling air. It also prevents boost loss through the intercooler. I did notice alot of the vertical intercoolers of similar dimensions were rated for "higher" horsepower (what ever that means) than similar sized cores of a horizontal flow pattern. it was a little more than what I wanted to spend on a intercooler, but well worth it IMO. Its pretty frigin small tool.
Found another picture.
That is interesting.. I don't think I could pull of that routing. You go through right where my headlamp is on a Firebird..
But you do make a valid point, that's the same type of core procharger uses..
Its just from what I've read. It could all be horse ****, but i only see 15-18* increase through 3 gears while WOT. Real test will be when I start running double digit boost numbers. And yeah, thats a camaro only thing. I actually have to replace the coupler on the right because its such a tight fit and got a chafe mark in it.
About the only way you can get below ambient is with liquid intercooling, ie methanol/water injection. You cant get below ambient with air to air. Easy round about way to figure out outlet temps. 10° per lb of boost. So example situation. 10lbs boost will add 100° to incoming air charge. Incoming air is 85° outlet from supercharger will be 185° roundabout. If your at 20° ambient outlet temp would be 105° into engine. So basically the intercooler is removing 80° of heat.Add a nozzle 7gph or more after the intercooler if you want to get below ambient. Running nozzle before intercooler defeats the purpose as it will cool air charge and intercooler will actually heat it back up from warmer air running across it. I run a 14gph nozzle on a KB mustang 14lbs boost no air to air. Runs great. I can steer you in the right direction if you want to go that route too. For fyi the best way and most accurate way to measure inlet temps is with a K thermocouple. I run a spa techniques gauge.
Yeah pre cooler temps are easy to estimate if you have an idea what compressor efficiency is. Air compression calcs are out there. If a low 60-65% efficiency it may be 120+ deg added for every 10 psi lol if 75-80% it may be 100 deg added.
Anything nearer 300 starts to melt those plastic gm iat sensors i believe.
When your cooler is too small you def will see rapid rise in temps. I seen 40+ deg in a few second dyno pull on high boost lol. Hence why switching to the air water coolers.
Find a way to add a pressure tap to the inlet end tank or somewhere convenient between the blower and the IC core...I'll bet you have a big pressure drop across that IC core. It appears to have a pretty small cross sectional area, but hard to tell from the pics. Assume the core is about 3" thick, but looks small in the photos.
I've got a 10 psi Magnehelic differential pressure gauge which is handy for measuring the pressure drop between 2 points.
Its expensive. But with 2 K thermocouple you can get accurate in and out.
That aside. You mentioned water/methanol. To be honest not a fan of air to air. The simple fact they only work with air moving across it. And can only get as cold as the air moving across it. Water/ Methanol can get below ambient.Water/ methanol is a 2 fold, maybe 3 fold improvement. No piping, better cooling, and octane booster. Alot of the Ford guys use it because it works. I use it on a Kenne Bell setup. You can mix your own with VP M1 and distilled. If I was to ever do another supercharged or turbo car I wouldn't even consider an air to air. Before you consider spending money on a different intercooler I would seriously look into a water/ methanol system. If you are even considering it I can recommend some good kits. Take care.
Find a way to add a pressure tap to the inlet end tank or somewhere convenient between the blower and the IC core...I'll bet you have a big pressure drop across that IC core. It appears to have a pretty small cross sectional area, but hard to tell from the pics. Assume the core is about 3" thick, but looks small in the photos.
I've got a 10 psi Magnehelic differential pressure gauge which is handy for measuring the pressure drop between 2 points.
I'm going to add a second map sensor before the IC I think to log that. I'm just struggling to find time with a million projects going on.
I think there is a threaded fitting on the blower discharge which would be a good spot I'd think.
The only problem with water methanol is distribution. Too much methanol and it takes the place of your fueling which means you gotta pull fuel from your main map to compensate, and relying on the spray mist to evenly mix thru the intake and get to all 8 cylinder evenly is unrealistic. Richard Holdener did a test of iat on each cylinder on a ls1 and water meth kit. There was noticeable air distribution issues, and big swing in iat from cyl 1 to 7 which is front to rear of intake
too much water mix and it slows combustion down and makes it harder to ignite/burn so you may need to play with timing advance or need a much stronger ignition system.
But done right it certainly works. My 305 remote mount deal was fine but i had a couple issues with valve float and ignition with that setup i never got a chance to fully diagnose. But i ran it from 7-20 psi down the track to get an idea of what iat was doing with a single 6gph nozzle and a 50/50 mix then moved down to washer fluid. It worked well enough but distribution always is a concern imo
Its expensive. But with 2 K thermocouple you can get accurate in and out.
That aside. You mentioned water/methanol. To be honest not a fan of air to air. The simple fact they only work with air moving across it. And can only get as cold as the air moving across it. Water/ Methanol can get below ambient.Water/ methanol is a 2 fold, maybe 3 fold improvement. No piping, better cooling, and octane booster. Alot of the Ford guys use it because it works. I use it on a Kenne Bell setup. You can mix your own with VP M1 and distilled. If I was to ever do another supercharged or turbo car I wouldn't even consider an air to air. Before you consider spending money on a different intercooler I would seriously look into a water/ methanol system. If you are even considering it I can recommend some good kits. Take care.
I used to run a water alky mix back in 2002/2003 on a blown 355. It worked very well until something happened and it didn't on a pass and I ripped the top off two pistons.
I used to run a water alky mix back in 2002/2003 on a blown 355. It worked very well until something happened and it didn't on a pass and I ripped the top off two pistons.
-- Joe
The kits have come a long way since then ,esp the nozzles. I have a prometh kit. Devils own makes a nice kit. They actually make the best fine spraying nozzles. I have a mini blue warning light on the dash that lights when its spraying to know it is or not. Just my personal opinion. I had a procharger with 3 core, just makes for alot of added weight with intercooler and piping. Since using methanol on the KB I would never use an intercooler again. Done right it's the best of both worlds. Just need a quality kit.
I had a pre and post intercooler IAT gauge and I would consistently get 170*F+ out of the center supercharger and I would get 100-120*F out of the intercooler, this was a cheap eBay 3” x31x12 speed daddy style. I also tested pressure drop and it was like .2psi at 12psi boost. Then I added water meth shooting 750cc of wiper fluid progressively and temps would drop another 10-20* and I could Get below 100*. Now I run just a thermocouple which I hate before the TB and still use the same IC and meth nozzle. I’m turbo now but I have been up to 15psi on cheapest 93 pump and no issues.
I liked the wiper fluid mix myself. I think its 70/30 water methanol on the coldest rated or 80/20 on most. I was mixing 50/50 on my 305 but found the 6gph nozzle to provide too much meth as fuel and i had to cut my fuel table down alot more than i liked to get it back into power. But it cooled well.
I liked the wiper fluid mix myself. I think its 70/30 water methanol on the coldest rated or 80/20 on most. I was mixing 50/50 on my 305 but found the 6gph nozzle to provide too much meth as fuel and i had to cut my fuel table down alot more than i liked to get it back into power. But it cooled well.
You can make M1 and distilled any % as well. I just didnt like using the washer fluid. Either did my tuner.There are perfumes and other stuff I dont think is great for the injector nozzle or engine. You can literally smell that stuff burning under boost. I dont trust the label on those as well. Simple economics. $2.50 for a gallon of washer fluid with 30% methanol. Out of that gallon,128 ounces the methanol cost .83 cents for 38 ounces. It's about 2 cents an ounce. M1 is 8 dollars a gallon or 6 cents an ounce. If you mix M1 at the same rate as you were tuned with a 70/washer mix and the you still need to trim fuel there would be your answer. I do think the washer mix has methanol in it. Just not as much as you think plus other detergents and the quality isnt the same.
I liked the wiper fluid mix myself. I think its 70/30 water methanol on the coldest rated or 80/20 on most. I was mixing 50/50 on my 305 but found the 6gph nozzle to provide too much meth as fuel and i had to cut my fuel table down alot more than i liked to get it back into power. But it cooled well.
Ive never liked running meth as a needed fuel requirement. I have a local friend whos got a blown LS3 thats running 100% meth and his tuner was adamant about it on his build. Makes me cringe at the thought of the one time it doesnt spray correctly.
We were getting it for 5-6 a gallon. I was mixing down the m1. I think its still 35$ for 5 gal pal, 272$ for 54 gal drum
The place local to me that sells VP sells it out of the drum. I hate that because methanol is like a sponge if exposed to air. I did buy the 5 gallon pail. I was going through M1 like crazy when I first finished the KB build. Maybe 20-30 gallons over the year. It's a 14gph nozzle.
I don’t like mixing or getting pure meth, it’s got such a low flash point and you can’t see the flame. I don’t like to store or mix it bc of that reason. I personally use -20 wiper fluid which is the coldest I can get and believe it’s 70/30 mix. I’ve also used 50/50 boost juice and didn’t see enough of a difference. The wiper fluid I buy a few gallons at a time when it’s on sale and stock up.
05-07-2019, 09:13 AM
I actually have to replace the coupler on the right because its such a tight fit and got a chafe mark in it. 
