Just looking for advice/opinions....

Recently aquired a 92 B4C with 5.0L 5-speed. 100% stock. Looking to make car handle very well for Silver State Challange. I have picked out coilover kits, k-member, tubular lower control arms, tubular SFC's, panhard bar, LCA's, bumpsteer kit, koni shocks, strut tower brace, and 6 point rollcage.

Now, does this sound like a good set-up?? Should I not go with coil-overs?? Anyone have some input? Please let me know

 

sounds like a great setup :\ .. but on a 1LE/B4C ??? it's worth
so much as is .. and you want to hack it down to a hull anyway??
why not get a hull for $200 and have extra GGG's for more
go fast goodies !!

TVP

 

well, the car has 130,000 on it already and needs freshening up such as springs, shocks, and engine rebuild.

 

Most crashes at the Silver State are a result of tire delamination. The speeds reached combined with the weight of a heavy street car (3000 lbs +) can be hazardous on even the best street tires especially if its a hot day. My suggestion, and you may already know this, is to strip down that car as much as possible and get a set of roadrace tires. Auto-x tires are nogood either, they'll heat up too much and wear out probably before you finish.

 

Coilovers are for drag racing.
If you want height adjustability - get height adjusters - see WWW.Ground-Control.com

Tubular K-member may be o.k. but I doubt it is strong as the stock one - same goes for front control arms.

Once again - for what you are doing - avoid the coilovers.

 

I was under the impression the coilovers were well suited for racing and auto crossing, so why avoid them? (by the way, I also do SCCA autocrossing)

 

If I can respectfully disagree, there is not a Trans Am Series car (the ultimate roadrace car in todays era) that does not run coilovers. This is the ultimate in bindfree movement and unsprung weight for all types of racing.
My "opinion" on tubular products is to have every weld point gusseted for strength like you would see on a sandrail frame. They do break once in a while and when they do its kiss you bye bye.

 

coil overs on the front of a third gen is a HUGE mistake !!! .
the strut towers weren't designed to actually hold up the
car .. the cradle does that .. EVEN the drag setup that some one
here is using ... the coil overs push the cradle against the
tub ... which is VERY bad thing .. ESPECIALLY if your going to
road race .... just get some good adjustable/re-valve-able struts you'll spend ALOT less and get ALOT more bang for the buck !! Coil overs on the rear require a cage and lots of support .. I think ground control offers a kit ... in fact .. check out thier page .. if you don't see it there , you don't want it

and comparing a full out , tube frame , SCCA RACE CAR to anything near stock is a joke !!! you know they build those from the ground up right ??? they don't even start with a car ???
hint , hint .....

TVP

 

I see the point about the cradles not being able to support the weight.... now you have got me thinking. So if I just get Koni red or yellows at all four corners, Eibach Sport springs, Racing tires, strut tower brace, LCA's, SFC's, panhard, and poly bushings all around, will the car sustain (not peak) over 1 G lateral accelerations?

 

... I recently rebuilt my front/rear suspension on my 87 T/A.

... here's my $0.03 worth ...

I wanted a 1 g machine that I could drive to work and take to the track for some road race fun at open sessions. I have achieved it.

Save the money on the coilovers and hook up with the folks at Ground Control for their ride height adjusters and some ERS springs. I'm running a spring rate of 850 up front and 175 out back. Also get their caster/camber kit.

The tubular K member is a good idea to help with the unsprung weight up front. I have an AC delete and relocated the battery to the rear well and my front weight is just over 200 lbs more than the rear. The new K member would take care of most of that, along with the tubular A-arms. Re-valved struts like they have at T.P.I.S. work well, with the Koni's out back.

36mm sway bar up front and a 24mm in the rear will also help to keep things planted thru the canyon.

Also, talk to the folks at Guldstrand. Bob can help and Dick still works on cars in the shop. Checkout their site. Dick Guldstrand has done a lot of engineering on these 3rd Gen cars, as well as the early 'vettes, in regards to Trans Am racing.

The SFC's, adj LCA's & PanHard Rod, STB, wonderbar and cage will all help to stiffen the chassis and are all good additions. Good seats and harnesses will assist to round out the 'pucker' factor of the Silver State Challenge.

 

I read this and was just curious if you know Mr. Dick Guldstrand personally. I've known him since I was in diapers. He and my father go back 40+ yrs, and I was a driver in the GRA for several years until I started a family.
I still stand by my comment on coilvers. A good proformance strut like Koni is plenty strong enough to support cornering forces of the Camaro otherwise GM would not have engineered it to be such a major suspension component. The upper rear shock mounts do need some reinforcing for coilvers. With any coilover application, the car needs to be reengineered mildly to handle a coilover setup because obviously it didn't come that way from the factory. Ofcourse things can't just be bolted right on but it can be done safely and reliably with not too much effort. Just a little grinding and welding but not much to make things operate freely.

P.s. Dick wont give you the help you need over the phone. You would have to hire him for the professional set up you would desire. He's good at what he does, but it doesn't come free. For those that don't know of him, Dick Guldstrand was the first professional driver Roger Penske ever hired and in later years was the first to take a Grand Sport Corvette to Le Mans.

 

O.K. genius, here's my reponse to you. Take any car, Raise the front wheels three feet of the ground, Then drop it, REPEATEDLY, the tell me nothing breaks. This is what you get with a drag car and this is why drag cars are always having the frames either repaced each year or repaired!
Or didn't you know a drag car was built from the ground up and can still break....What a joke!

 

I have met Mr Guldstrand, when I had a trip out to So Cal this past March. I stopped in and picked up the parts I had ordered and Bob introduced me to him. We talked a bit about what I was trying to accomplish with my T/A and how I was going about it. Learned a few things, too.

I, too, agree with the recommendation against the coilover setup. The way these cars are designed, it is better to improve on the system the way it was designed (stiffer springs, poly bushings, ride height adjusters, etc) and not try to re engineer the physics of it.

I know of an engineer that has spent many an hour re-engineering the mounting points on the front of a 3rd Gen Camaro to improve the the roll center. He has one great handling car car now, though it is only a track car.

Mike

 

The guy making this post said his intent was to build a car for the Silver State Challange, but said nothing about street use. A car of this magnitude should not be of stock configuration if trying to seriously compete. And chopping, grinding, and welding are all part of what it takes.
Your friend's "race Camaro" I'm sure was lowered more than acceptable for street use thus creating poor geometry on the factory mounts and playing havoc to the roll axis. They would need to be repositioned just like you would add LCA relocaters to the rear. Making the car really competitive.
GM engineered an excellent roll axis in the stock geometry camaro. Its just designed for a highier ride height for street use.

P.s. K-members have nothing to do with unsprung weight. You guys are debating me about suspensions but make comments as such. This makes me puzzled.

 

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by TVP
coil overs on the front of a third gen is a HUGE mistake !!! .
the strut towers weren't designed to actually hold up the
car .. the cradle does that .. EVEN the drag setup that some one
here is using ... the coil overs push the cradle against the
tub ... which is VERY bad thing ..

TVP

O.K. genius, here's my reponse to you. Take any car, Raise the front wheels three feet of the ground, Then drop it, REPEATEDLY, the tell me nothing breaks. This is what you get with a drag car and this is why drag cars are always having the frames either repaced each year or repaired!
Or didn't you know a drag car was built from the ground up and can still break....What a joke!


???? are you aurguing the same point as I ???? maybe a "hack"
job drag car would come apart like that ... the cars we
built (for others) and ran (ourselves) from 85-92 never had the fronts ..or backs redone after we completed them ...well into the 9's ... 3 foot of air alteast once or twice every weekend ?? don't know who's car you've seen but I'd be afraid to ride in it , especially if it's comming apart that quick !! you run fast .. you have to support the car .. period ! some people actually run 11's and haven't put a cage in .. till they get busted at the track ... then it's too late ...

back to the point ....

isn't the SSC race a race on streets ?? through the middle of no where ??? at 190-200mph ??? ? and he's starting with a 1LE ..
which ..IMHO ... is a waste of money and car ... he's going to gut
it ??? build off the factory tub ??? no tube frame ??? just a cage
and typical bolt and weld ons ???? WHY would anyone start with 1LE if your going to hack it up for coil overs ???? at that point even the bad a$$ 1LE brakes are too small ... you go from a pair of $500 struts to a COMPLETE FRAME JOB .. just to run coil overs???.. and you still recommend them ??? you must have VERY DEEP POCKETS ???? or .. obviously.. the people you KNOW do !!!!

 

Tne Race does take place on a public hwy in Nevada, but that doesn't constitute it a street race. The road is completely checked and void of any dips, bumps and potholes, like any race track. It is closed to any traffic and regulated for safety.

As for the car he's using being too precious and expensive to "Hack" in your terms, you should see the price tag of the cars he will be competing against and their hack jobs like the Frankinstein Porsche that competes every year and up.(Ferarri's, Corvettes, Lamborghinis, vintage RS Camaros all with hack jobs)
The top cars reach speeds in excess of 225 mph.

Yes my friend, this does take deep pockets.

 

From what I gather about the race, they have a ton of different target speed classes starting at 90 mph. It seems like you could get away with up to about a 120 mph target speed with just a few safety mods to an otherwise stock B4C. Am I wrong?

 

point in case ...

As for the car he's using being too precious and expensive to "Hack" in your terms, you should see the price tag of the cars he will be competing against and their hack jobs like the Frankinstein Porsche that competes every year and up.(Ferarri's, Corvettes, Lamborghinis, vintage RS Camaros all with hack jobs)
The top cars reach speeds in excess of 225 mph.


I'm sure they didn't start with a car that's 50 times more expensive just to hack it up ..right ??? they didn't take a pace car vette and hack it up ??? they didn't take the mult-million dollar
ferarri and hack it up ??? if you need a body in white .. you don't go the nearest chevy dealer and get a WHOLE car LOADED with options like leather and t-tops .. only to take everything out and get it back to a body in white ??? right ????

Then why would you take a 1LE and take EVERYTHING off of it that makes it a 1LE ??? why not start with a regular ole camaro and take everything off of it ... that's worthless anyway ??? then your what ....$6k in the black...... just from selling the 1LE ...

 

you guys are over reacting about the 1LE. The car has 130,000 miles on it. It is actually a B4C that was beaten up by the El Paso police department. the interior is trashed, the body has holes in it, but the engine runs strong(even for a 5L).
I have raced Road america, Gingerman, and SCCA events on pavement with a almost stock IROC. The handling is manageable but not great. I still plan on running those events as well as Silver state challenge and use the car on the streets in the summer. I am going to enter the 120 mph class, so the car does not need to be a total race car. I am thinking that good Eibach springs Koni yellows all around, SFC, LCA, tubular panhard, strut tower brace, bumpsteer kit, hieght adjustability, and a roll cage should make the chassis/suspension suited for the race. .... the coilovers look a bit shady and the fool I spoke to at ground control could not give me one answer to my questions about the coil over kit.

 

Sounds like you have this under control. Go with your intentions and you should be fine.

Don't forget that tune-up.

 

I've got the Koni Yellow's and I like them very much. I plan on getting Guldstrand springs instead of Eibach's though. Maybe after the engine swap I'll see you at the SSC one year

 

Racing is in the blood. Sorry, my philososphy to it is all out. I race to win and that means over everyone there. I would agree with the non coil setup if it will still be a daily driver and a lower class entrant in the SSC. I would love to enter it in my '68 vette but my top speed is 186mph and the car gets areodynamically loose after 165mph. It can't compete at the speeds they do with the way my car stands without alot more money and wind tunnel work. I will be running it this year at a corvette meet in Big Bear, Calif. ( 600 + corvettes there) and will be a favorite to win this event. If anyone attends, I have the Mica light blue '68 Vette.

P.S. I eat Stock C5 vettes for lunch, I should know because my father-in-law owns one.

Oh yeah, TVP, People DO strip down and modify perfectly good brand new ferrari's for the SSC. Pull your head out of your *** and grow up, There's a lot to learn outside of Georgia you frickin hick.

 

Oh yeah, TVP, People DO strip down and modify perfectly good brand new ferrari's for the SSC. Pull your head out of your *** and grow up, There's a lot to learn outside of Georgia you frickin hick.

aahhh ... yes .. you who assume to much .... and can't read past yourself , there's more to the story than just YOU ... I didn't say they don't take ..say ...even a Vector .. probably about as rare a car over all other cars .. and go race it .. I was mearly pointing out
that they aren't going to take one and especailly odrer it for a cruiser and then strip it all down and race it ... wouldn't you just get a RACING version ... and back to the point once again since you can't seem to keep a focus on it ... most people don't have $100k to throw at full all out racer ...much less start with a $100k car .. like you tell stories about ... and build from there ... all I was saying .. once again .. MY POINT OF VIEW .. since I do this ALL the time ... is .. START WITH A ZERO !!! and work your way up .. why start with a $5-6k car and take EVERYTHING off of it that makes it worth that .. ONLY TO END UP BACK AT ZERO ??? when the $5-6k can go a long way into the performance parts you really want ... keep in mind .. the only thing that makes that car worth 5-6k is the 1k worth of brakes .... DO THE MATH .. that's all I'm saying ...

and keep your RACIAL slur to yourself ..... you obviously have no idea .....

TVP

 

Am I the only one that thinks You two have gotten a little too enthusiastic about your opinions? Let me sum up both points:
1. Racing costs money
2. Saving money is good
Sure it's a little more complicated than that, but it's not worth all the fuss.

 

For goodness sake...DON"T chop up that car!!! It's a REAL 1LE!!!!!

 

If you guys are so against modifying the car, why don't you buy it from me. The car needs a make-over. The brakes are about the only thing that work perfectly(and I am not going to change tham--just putting racing pads on them). The wiring is screwed up, the body has holes in it, the engine has 136,000 and the interior is fair at best. Now who would pay $5-6k for it? I know I wouldn't. I bought it for less. I bought it for this purpose, to race it. It has the TPI, great brakes, 5-speed manual, and no T-tops. Find me the same for $3800 and then I will not modify the car!!

 

How 'bout some pics and info? I'd like to see it and consider your offer. I've got a 60,000 mile '88 Iroc that I'm rebuilding.

I'm a purist and I just gave my opinion. I still have flashbacks to seeing that tubbed race-chassied '63 split window 'Vette...and thinking "What a dumb-***!!" No offense intended, and it's your money.

 

the car is not for sale. I am not cutting anything off the car, everything will be bolt on .... and there for restorable back to original condition(except the roll cage) if so desired, but I think that the only way I will get rid of the car is if it gets totalled out, or was offered $6800 for it. I will send you pics to your email b/c I cannot get them to post here.

 

I understand, and thanks for the pics in advance. Good luck with it!

Ed

 

The best money is spent on learning how to drive before dumping $$$$ into the car.

If you never done it before, a good driver will pass you in a little "hunday"