Hello everyone. I am new to this forum and new to f-bodies. I just bought an 84 Camaro (w/ t-tops) and am looking forward to having fun running it in autocross events and at a 'run for fun' drag race/car cruise event called the 'Flashlight Drags' (www.alteredgas.com). I have a little (very little) experience with cars, primarily local, 'trophy class', circle track cars.

I know that t-top cars are not much more rigid than a vert and stiffening the frame will be one of the best improvements I can make to the car. I have been reading some of the older posts and it seems like SFC's are a very good mod for improving the handling and rigidity of 3rd gen camaros. I also I know from experience with the circle track stuff that a roll bar will add alot of rigidity to car. Since I am going to use the car primarily for racing type events I was thinking a roll bar (or maybe better stated as a 'rollover' bar) would be a good investment.

Here is my question: Does anybody have a roll bar and SFC's on their car? Do the SFC's help much after the roll bar has been installed, or is just the roll bar sufficient enough to stiffen up the chassis?

Thanks guys, I am looking forward to your opinions!

 

I say have a good set of SFCs put in first. If you are not happy with the rigidity, then come in later with the roll bar/cage.

 

I installed SFC when I first bought this car, since I race in a stright line and had a tiny motor I honestly could'nt tell if it did anything.

End of that season I installed the 8 point (actually only 6) and then I could tell a difference, now you can put the jack ANYWHERE at any point on the side of the car, and the entire car lifts up together.

Maybe some others will come in with better documented data, especially with autocross type experience, but if I could do mine again, I'd skip the SFC and go straight to the roll bar/cage-your essentially connecting the same points together anyways, just doing it from the top instead of the bottom, plus adding a few more points also.

 

The first thing I installed in my car before it hit the track was SFC. The car ran high 13's at the time. By the time I hit 12.0, I installed a roll bar because it's required once you hit 11's and I was getting close. Even a 13 or 14 second car will benefit from a roll bar.

A roll bar and SFC do different jobs. Every third gen should have SFC but a roll bar by itself won't do what the SFC do.

My car now has a full 12 point cage but then it's not street legal either. I've never had any problems with the t-tops or body cracks.

 

Well how about this, instead of installing SFC, why could'nt a guy install a straight bar/sill bar between where the front door bar connects to the chasis and the hoop?

The front of the door bar and hoop basically connect into the sub framed area then the sill bar would connect between those and serve the same purpose? helping the car not to twist?

I'm not an engineer by trade, but with an 8 point roll bar, woul'nt the triangulation (big word serve the same purpose from preventing the chasis from twisting also. honestly looking for a definative answer since I'm taking my best guess with this based off common sense "to me", not flaming-honest

trying to think of all the nova II's, 1st gen camaros, etc... with sub frames that just run roll bars.

 

I have both. Since my SFC were welded in years ago, I never really plan on taking them out, Since there is no real frame under the car, the SFC tie the front and rear sheetmetal frames together for strength. Without the SFC, the sheetmetl lfloor will flex at the mounting points where the subframes are.

When I installed my cage, I added sill bars connecting the main hoop to the A-piller bar along the door sill. This stiffens up the cage structure and adds a bit more rigidity along the door sill. My SFC are welded in and run right under the driver seat so they don't run along the sill. Welding in the cage still doesn't tie into the front and rear subframes, just to the upper floor sheetmetal, so adding a sill bar would help but still isn't a real replacement for SFC.

 

I guess alot of it has to do with how the cage is ultimately attached to the structure of the car. From what you guys have said so far, it sounds like the SFC's are probably not worth it IF I went with an 8 or more point cage that tied the front and rear subs together through the cage structure. If I just went with a 4 or 6 point 'rollover' type cage, the SFC's would probably still be useful.

Do you guys have any opinions on 'Wonderbars'? Are they all pretty much the same? I was reading some old posts where the TDS bar seems to be a more universal type bar where as some of the other bars may require modification to the fan housing. Do they all perform pretty much the same?

 

having actually had the experience of years driving thirdgens, driving thirdgens with just SFCs, driving thirdgens with just rollbars, and driving thirdgens with both.........



if you're going to put a rollbar in, and this bar will NOT have removable/swingout door bars, adding SFCs will do nothing except add weight.




im not positive, but i believe adding SFCs will make most autocross sanctioning bodies put you in a modified class... adding a rollbar usually does not (a "safety item" instead of a "performance modification") read the rules to be sure though.


in any case, yes SFCs help. but rollbars help more. you're stiffer with just the bar then just the SFCs... and adding the SFCs has minimal effect... on paper it seems like it should help, but you cant feel the diff, even when you try...it just adds weight.

 

I have both...I had both done at the same time...My cage is Welded INTO the subframes...The structure is rock solid...I Also have SOLID side bars>>>AND I have bars that go from te front portion of the 10Pt cage to the rear hoop right at floor level...I did this for further stiffening and for a place to attach my harness to...


Does it need both>>>NO...do I like the solid feel of both YES...

 

dude, you have your harness mounted at floor level?!

 

SFC's add enough rigidity ? You tell me ...

 

Any pics of your cage? How tall/big are you? I’ve been looking for a new body to swap some pieces that I’ve accumulated and pretty much decided that there is no way that I can put a decent cage in a t-top car that I’ll fit in (I’m 6’4”, 300lb, no *** and all chest and shoulders).

As far as the rest of this discussion… even just a 6pt roll bar can tighten up the body better then some SFC connectors if it’s well designed and tied into the chassis well, because it has shape/rigidity in 3 dimentions, SFC do not. OTOH, SFC are designed to tighten up the body so you can expect that they will do a decent job at it unless they were designed totally wrong.

 

It's a Jegs cage and the halo bar still allows me to open the T-tops. There's no interior so I have the halo bar positioned right up to the sheetmetal of the roof. The seat is mounted to some aluminum brackets to lower it.

 

I have both, I kinda added the bar cuz I love the way it looks, and I loce the added regidity that the SFC gave me.

I am not even racing my car, just "fun" street driving. Thats why i covered mine in pading and cloth and integrated it into the interior, to give the "looks like its supposed to be there" look

 

NO...the LAP portion of the 5 point>>>Outside portion of the lap belts clip into that part of the cage...The center Y part of the harness mounts to the center middle cross bar of the main hoop...then the other side lap belt bolts into the factory location..

All Perfectly legal and correct per the NHRA book

 

I have weld in SFC and a 6 point bar that I put in myself. Does it really make that big a differece totie them to eachother????

Not that hard to do, if it is worth it. THX

 

I dont have mine tied together, been like that for 3 yrs. Car launches hard and straight. Best addition was the Wolfe Craft anti-roll bar. If you have the car tied together and install that anti roll bar-you will have NO body roll/tweaking at all, really makes the suspension/chasis work together as they should!! But that anit roll bar is meant for track only, driving with it on the street results in a very harsh ride...but works like a champ on the strip.

Had my first race at home track last weekend since installation, 106* temps, 100% sunshine and less than ideal track conditions to say the least; talked with about 10 other racers of track only cars with big tires and 4 links that were having troubles repeating 60's- most of them in the 1.4x times in the 60', the bird was on the number all weekend long-very very good investment for a stock suspension bracket racer-should've done it last year.

 

Sounds like a good bar. Any suggestions for a good street bar? I don't mind a harsh ride.

 

If/when I get more time and get to tear the car completely apart I will re-engineer the mounts for the link bars that attach to the frame-the weak link in the design for street use since those weak azzed tabs they send get all of the abuse when hitting bumps/etc..., other than that the rest of the parts seem upto task, if you have time or waited until winter before installing when you have time to really dig into it that would be my recommended route to take.

I had the car torn apart waiting for the bar to come shipped 2nd day air, "they" waited a day to ship so I (like always) was rushed into using what they sent to install since I had to be trailered and heading south for a race that weekend-did not get the quality time I would've like with that bar to say the least, and so goes the list of things to do "when I get time"

Trying to change things with races everyweekend is not the best idea, wait for 1 week break before taking on these types of tasks

 

Of course its stronger to weld the bar into the sfc itself in most cases...Just think about it... a 6x6 plate technically can be welded to the floor board...Itt take a tube to tube joint that welded along the unit body fram rails any day over just a 6x6 plate...IF it was not as strong to do it that way then why once you get fast enough to need an SFI spec cage do they satr havingg you cut the floor up and essentially building a full tube chassis integrated into the unit body cars...

IS it NECESSARY...no...Is it stronger that way>>depends on who did it and how they did it... In my case they welded the sfc down the unit body rail...then tied bars into that...IE made it more like a tube chassis if you will... Ill be honest...if you can do it>>>I would>>if its a struggle Id pass...It does not allow you certification to run any faster... To be honest I had mine done that for LOOKS and function>>>

By looks I dont mean it looks cool...I mean that LOOK at your f-body without the carpet... the unit body rails are NON symetrical... So if you welded every tube /plate to the strongest point your cage would be totally different on one side versus the other>>>Especially in the back cargo section....I ended up having the cage pass through to the sfc's in a symetrical fashion>>>Plus the rear cargo area is the worst>>>So I essentially had a tube frame built back there for my rear bars to mount to...

Was it overkill>>>Probably>>>but I had money to burn at the time and I want mine to look totally different than anyone elses... I HATE when someone builds the exact same thing.... Goes back to my ***** days I guess... So we designed thiis from the ground up to be different yet still be good enough for 7.50 1/4 mile passes..

Id agree on the racecraft swaybar...Love mine..

 

so any pictures of these differnet monkey bars?

 

Yeah, It would be cool if everyone posted thier bar pics. Or at least links.

I have a ton on my site. Even the install. I can post links if people want. All the pics are in my site.

 

I don't race competively, but I do believe in SFCs. In 1997 I had a head on collision with a FORD pickup, in my 83 Z28. The car accordianed and the dash came down on top of me, breaking my left leg and leaving some nasty cuts. I had just ordered a set of connectors and hadn't had time to put them in. Authorities said that had I installed them, I probably would have walked away. I blamed it on the FORD, but they were probably right.

Since then, I have made a set for my T-top 85 IROC, with 2.5 inch square tubing. I could tell a huge difference in how the car handled and a reduction in squeaks and rattles.

I'm sure the roll bar will help in these areas, but make sure you have provisions for a frontal impact. If the unfortunate happens, we want you to walk away. I got lucky!!!!

 

or you could get perimiter sfc's and weld the roll bar to them and the floor. thats what i did. also if you add a smaller bar like i did it will help if you have the swing out kit and take the side bar out while on the street.
herer are a couple links to threads i posted pics in.

https://www.thirdgen.org/techbb2/sho...hreadid=226745

https://www.thirdgen.org/techbb2/sho...=&pagenumber=1

thanks
anthony

 

Im 6'4" but about 100lbs lighter than you...LOL...mine in a hard top car sits about 1" LOWER than stevens...I wanted to keep a headliner...so My top bars sit pretty low....I lowered my seat as well...Im pushing the bounds of legality with the head room...I really need to either drop my seat a little lower or go with a race seat like he has...

If I ever get fast enough to require a 25.5 cage then Ill scrap the headliner idea and have the cage redone Higher up for sure.. To be honest thats probably the 1 thing about my car that been bugging me... While its plenty safe in a crash I just feel its too close for comford...Id rather have about 4" between the top of my helmet and the bottom plane of the bars...

 

know that feeling. this is the biggest problem about putting a cage in a 3rd gen with a tall driver, while driving my car back and forth while working on it that bar is nice and close. all i see is roll bar when i look out my rear veiw mirror. lol.

just be sure to use good thick padding and to sit a little forward to prevent that bar from denting your head.
with the bar the car is mucho stiff, like its on that "new longer lasting viagra" lol definently worth the time and effort.

thanks

 

Hmmm..... I think I istalled mine as high as possible and my tenzo seats drop me down quite a bit. I installed mine for regidity, not NHRA legality though. When I look through my rear view, I barley see the bottom of the bar at all. And mine is padded all around and cloth covered.

Pics from my site....

 

This one kinda shows how much you can see out the back. Not what the pic was inteded for, but I amat work and can't take a better one now. The Tenzo's must have dropped me down further than I thought, b/c I really can see everything just fine. Oh I am 6 feet tall.