Fords88Bird

Well it's been a couple weeks and I finally finished what was needed to get my '88 on the road again. First I thought my fuel pump was bad so I did everything needed to drop the tank PITA, when I pulled out the pump I noticed the short hose on top of it had a split in it. That's probably what made my car start but not idle unless I kept on the gas, seems that it was pumping but not enough. Since I went thru all the trouble I just went ahead and put in a new pump (wish I had an access panel). This is what was done so far--new fuel filter, new fuel pump, 2" wheel adapters all around, C6 18" & 19" 5 spoke wheels, paint calipers and drums , paint rear axle, new rear sway bar end links, UMI adj. panhard bar, 3" after cat Flowmaster system, TBI injector spacer, TBI airflow mod. Next will be lowering, adj. LCA's, 4th gen console swap, carpet. Lastly, I always liked the idea of an access panel for the fuel pump, so since every thing was taken apart I put one in. For those who say the only (so called right way) to change a fuel pump is dropping your tank, well I did that once, now in the future when something isn't right with the fuel pump weather its dead or it's just a hose I have access from the top. I taped off area and cut with a jigsaw then filed the edges then cut a cover to overlap by 1" with 16 ga ,drilled holes all around made a foam gasket to seal opening, painted cover and riveted it in place. Later.

Fords88Bird

Here's the access panel.

RevItUpZ28

iTrader: (1)

The fuel pump access panel looks well done!

ghettocruiser

iTrader: (4)

Very nice job on that cover man! Drilling all those rivets out will be a pain in the butt...but I might be inclined to do the same. They look clean, and wont strip the holes out like screws.

J.

//<86TA>\\

iTrader: (14)

the access panel look very nice, most ive seen here are totall hack jobs.

with that said, why do people do that? a couple weeks back i swapped out an intank pump the RIGHT way by dropping the tanks and all that yada-yada. Its not that hard, if i did it at home in my garage, i dont think it would take me more than 3 hours alone. Its really not the big deal that people make it out to be.

but anyways, good job, it came out very nice, though i would have used threaded inserts and bolts rather than rivets, just for ease later.

Fords88Bird

Thanks guys, I've seen the hack jobs too, so I figured I'd do something that could seem factory. I didn't mind dropping everything to get to the tank the first time around (for the experience) but I hate redoing things so drilling out 16 rivets if needed is way better for me. The threaded insert idea is a good one, I just couldn't locate any at the time. Later.

ghettocruiser

iTrader: (4)

You cant really call dropping the tank the "right" way. Yes its the way that GM intended it to be done on a thirdgen. But there are so many cars out there now that all have trap doors. And they arent all in the truck or sealed off from the driver. A few are under the rear seats.

If you can do it in 3 hours, from start time to when you can drive the car, then Im impressed. Its not hard work, but there is quite a bit of it. Not saying you cant...just saying that I cant. haha

As long as you take the amount of care that Fords88Bird did, doing the access panel is a very good way to replace the pump. Especially for us guys that are upgrading to aftermarket pumps to support HP. Because, as some of you know, those pumps can be defective, or can fail. They sometimes are alittle more unstable. So its nice to change or fix it without dropping the tank. I wouldnt want to do all that work, put her down, realize something was wrong back there, and have to do it all over again.

If it didnt require so much to drop the tank, then ide do it that way. Like..if it just dropped right out without moving anything else. Not that Im lazy...just that I hate taking going through all that just to get to one piece. Ive made everything else on my car easier to work on than it was from the factory, so why not the fuel pump?

J.

//<86TA>\\

iTrader: (14)

sure you can. are you telling me that cutting a hole in the car, and cutting the fuel lines to get the job done is more "right"?

Im aware that some vehicles now have access, which is fine, but its not how in these cars, so its far from being a "right" way to do it. Think about it, if you bought a car, and the fuel pump died, you take it to a shop or a dealer to have it fixed and they chop a hole in the floor, cut the fuel lines and swap it out that way. you would pe pissed off to high hell right? I sure would

My reasoning is, how often are you changing pumps? 3rd gen are 20+ years old, some still have stock pumps, running strong after 20 years, a new pump should last you another 20. If the car is a race car, thats a different story, but then again, if it is a race car, why are you still running an intank pump...

ghettocruiser

iTrader: (4)

Eh I guess you're right. I didnt realize you had to cut lines to do it that way? I guess Im used to the 4th gen tanks with the quick disconnect lines. The hole you have to cut isnt nearly as big as when running the 4th gen tank either.

Cutting a hole in the floor isnt a very big deal to me. I cut a big one for the 6spd swap. Made a hole bigger for the 4th gen tank wiring bulkhead. Made holes for PCM wiring etc etc. So a 6x6 hole to make working on the car easier seems "right" to me. Its the way GM should have done it in the first place...atleast with the 4th gen cars since you dont have to cut the lines.

We adapt things from other makes and models of cars all the time. Its the nature of the hobby, unless you have a car that is worth keeping stock. I see something on a toyota supra that I really like...I figure out how to copy it on my car. Keeping the car stock isnt a concern to me...so why not make it better/easier to work on?

I agree with you 100% on the shop doing the work by cutting the floor. My 67 Bonneville had the trunk cut for that reason. To get to the fuel sender. Its not a shops job to make work easier though. They dont care how much work they have to do. They have lifts and better working areas than me too. So yes, Ide be pretty ticked if they did that, then not only cut my car but charged me for the amount of labor to do it the right way.

As for the longevity of pumps...you are right there as well. My car isnt a "race car"...but its doing well enough to want more fuel in the form of an upgraded in tank pump. Plus, the pump doesnt have to fail in order for you to need to get back into the tank. The jumper hose could split, the fuel gauge sender could go bad, etc etc.

Basically all Im saying is I dont disagree with you that there are definetly hack jobs out there with the acess panel. Im just saying that if you do a neat job like the OP did, I see no reason not to perform the mod. Just another thing we do to our cars to , in my opinion, make them better. I prefer not to drop my tank and fiddle with that process when I work on the pump or when I installed my upgrade harness.

Its all good man. Either way works for me! I just dont wanna drop my tank again. Just had in and out a couple times during the swap from the 87 over to the 86. So the idea of pulling it again just sits funny with me. haha.

J.

//<86TA>\\

iTrader: (14)

4th gen tanks have quick connects on top of the tank? I was not aware of that.

I guess i can let the OP pass with this one, he did a fine job.

ghettocruiser

iTrader: (4)

Hahaha... Exception due to above average execution?? hehe.

Yup, the 4th gen system has quick disconnects all over it. While a pain sometimes, they do come in handy. Here's a nice pic showing the two tanks.

You can see how much further back the pump sender is, and also how much smaller you can make the hole, due to being able to disconnect the lines. You literally just need to make it big enough to get the top of the sender through.



Honestly...I really didnt realize the 3rdgen tanks had solid lines like that. I wouldnt want to cut a big enough hole for that. I never really looked at my original tanks. Haha. I got so frustrated from trying to snake the filler neck out that I just shoved the tank out of the way when done.

J.

Fords88Bird

+

//<86TA>\\

iTrader: (14)

something else that came to mind a little while back, but i could not find this post

I have seen pics of this access door hole many times on several different 3rd gens, and the fuel lines are all spliced back together with the same rubber fuel line and gear clamps.

Now, how about this. If you have an intank pump, the car is going to be fuel injected right?

Now do you all realize that this rubber, parts store fuel hose is meant for carb application only? It is not rated or built for the pressure involved in a fuel injected application. Just look under the car where the flex lines attach to the fuel lines from the body to the tank, and from the body to the fuel rails, the hose is MUCH heavier and has a threaded connection.

This other hose could burst due to the pressure, and that could be catastrophic

Some food for thought

-Phil

Fords88Bird

Good thought and I have seen that but I did use fuel inj. hose and fuel inj. clamps. Later.

85TransAm406

iTrader: (1)

Not entirely true, there's plenty of bulk fuel hose rated for 250+ psi. I buy my black rubber air hose in bulk for the shop and it's 300 psi rated. And you can go out and get black rubber hose for a 1000+ psi power steering application in bulk, bought by the foot from a parts store.

//<86TA>\\

iTrader: (14)

thats very true, but go to most auto stores to get rubber gas hose and its not for fuel injected. Unless you know what you are buying you coujld have an issue.

85TransAm406

iTrader: (1)

i'm with you. Hopefully those willing to do this to their car will also be willing to read the side of the hose where it says "100 psi MAX" in white letters. But that is just hoping.

iansane

iTrader: (1)

First time I changed the pump to a walbro in my 91 I dropped the tank out. If I have to do it again I'm going to cut an access panel with a gasketed trapdoor in case I need to come back. I don't care that it's not the way the original service manual says to do it, I care that it's done cleanly and makes it easier to do if/when I ever have to do it again. Why make it hard on yourself? My fuel lines are braided stainless down to the filter now anyways so I don't have to deal with long lines, I can just unscrew the ones that are there.

As far as I'm concerned cutting a hole in the car and the lines IS the right way to do it because it fixes the downfall the factory left. Just like any update/recall/bulletin. I have no problem if you do it any other way, that's up to you.

If someone is doing that nice of an access hole, I'd presume they knew what they were doing. Those weren't worm drive clamps that tear the hose, those where fuel injection clamps.

//<86TA>\\

iTrader: (14)

but like i said, ive seen this done before, with worm clamps, and the rest of the job was pretty hacked up.

I said it above, the OP did a very nice job and has his bases covered, so im sure he will be fine, i never said he didnt know what he was doing.

iansane

iTrader: (1)

Oh I've seen some ugly hackjobs before like I'm sure you have.

I was only refering to the OPs panel.

//<86TA>\\

iTrader: (14)

yeah, this should be a sticky "The RIGHT WAY to cut an access door for the fuel pump."

It shows a very nice, clean execution of the project and the following posts cover the safety issues involved and the correct parts to look for and use.

FueledSoul

iTrader: (18)

very nice!

Stephen

iTrader: (12)

Just want to make sure everyone that sees this is aware..

This on was done on a TBI car. Meaning a lower fuel pressure, MUCH closer to a carb setting than a port injection system (TPI/LT1/LS1).

So...Those single clamps on the fuel lines, will not hold up to higher higher #s of port systems. Especially LS1.

I think I've seen double clamps (per connection/hose end) hold the TPI pressures.

iansane

iTrader: (1)

89IROCTBI

What did you use to cut your fuel lines w/o making sparks. Also what size hose did you use to re-couple the hard lines?

Thanks,
BA

Fords88Bird

89IROC, I believe they were 5/16 F.I. hoses. I cut the hard lines with a metal band saw, and remember I had the tank out and the lines were all dry so no danger. Later.

89IROCTBI

Alright, thanks.

BA

84imsa

Hey, Fords! Nice job!

I'll be lowering the back of the IMSA within the next few days. Since dropping the rear axle is also one of the major steps leading to tank removal, I might as well go ahead and take it out. The car sat at the farm for almost 10 years before I rescued it and I'm sure there will be interesting things to find inside the tank.

I will probably go with an oval hole and attach the cover with #6 machine screws and clip nuts. I'll also probably go with AN fittings to minimize rubber connections. That'll make it look like an aircraft installation and since I'm in the trade, it'll be just dandy!



BTW, my 5660's are now in Euless, TX ready for shipment across the Pacific!

Cheers!

screeminchicken

iTrader: (2)

I was just wondering since the 4th send fuel pump unit is smaller and way back and may just require a smaller hole.....will something like this work ?

http://www.pegasusautoracing.com/pro...asp?RecID=5565

It comes with gaskets and bolts too.....I would rather use chrome Hex bolts to make them look pretty

This is just an eg...I think we may be able to find something bigger or smaller .....I have see some bigger aluminium ones that SCCA, drag cars, autocross and rally car and trucks use......

Some one has a ball park idea if a round openin will work and how big one does it need to be (this will be using a 4th gen tank in a 3rd gen)

screeminchicken

iTrader: (2)

Fords88Bird,

I was think of the same setup.....Do u have pictures of the wheels on ur car ? Just wanted to see how it looks on a 3rd gen. In the gap bw the rotor and wheel lip too much ? with 18" and 19" rims ?

what tire widths are u running ? Any issues with rubbing on the fendor ?

Thanks in advance

84imsa

Fords,

If and when you do have to drill the rivets out, don't forget to use a drill stop.

Then again, if you do forget, you wouldn't be the first person to accidentally drill a hole in his fuel tank.



BTW, got both rear fenders and the right front one sanded down to gelcoat! Progress!!!

Cheers!

Mike

Sutton

very nice job!...looks clean

Fords88Bird

Seen some interest in access panels lately so just thought I'd bring this old thread back to show pics of mine. Later.

Fords88Bird

GLAD I DID THIS !
Well its been almost 8 yrs. since i changed out the dead fuel pump and now i had to do it again.
Firebird has been parked about 4 yrs. and was time to drive it again.
Ive started it up and drove it around the block every few months, but now that i wanted to drive it on a regular basis it just cranked but no start.
My first thought was the fuel pump so i ordered one, decided to do a little trouble shooting first to make sure.
Checked fuses, relay, connections, plug behind back seat, jumped power wire to pump wire and still no go so def. was fuel pump.
Changed out relay anyways since its cheap.
So******* glad i did this access panel, took 10 min to drill out rivets another 10 min to clean up area and in about an hour was done and ready to drive.
A fuel pump can be replaced in an hour on the side of the road with access panel.
There is no reason why this should not be done. Later.

Fords88Bird

Here i go again, weak/dead fuel pump one more time.
Good for me i did the access panel mod years ago.
Doesnt seem to matter if i paid $50. or $15. for a fuel pump they go bad regardless. I think this is my 4th one so far.
Havent been on here for years but back now.

Fords88Bird

Anybody have this happen to the rubber isolator on their fuel pump. Some of that got sucked up too in the pickup line. Sucks.
Now need to drain the tank, gas went bad on me. Yeah i know should have used a fuel stabilizer