TEDSgrad

iTrader: (4)

Upfront: Thank you Dean for all the great info on this board!

Today, I put in the coil over rears w/200# springs. Ran out of $$ --> so the single adj - figured I would set it and mostly leave it, anyway.
The rest of the week will be the front: Spohn tubular a-arms, strut mounts, & bump steer; 850# springs - 9.5 "; swivel cup weight jacks; Racecraft spindles; and Koni struts.
I already have GW SFC & Wonder bar; Kenny Brown adj LCA & 3pt STB; adj PH; & BMR relocation brackets.

I finished the interior last week: https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/inte...r-rebuild.html

Here are some pics from today:

TEDSgrad

iTrader: (4)

And some more after welding the plates in. The POR-15 is not fun getting up in there.

Guest

Thank you Ted. I am merely just a guy explaining things in laymans terms, most of it I did not invent. I just explain how things work after the GM engineers designed it.

Always glad to be of help- we all have our own ideas as to what we think is best, I am flattered you like my style.

That style is keeping it simple, functional, and lightweight. Focus on benefits vs weight and cost. I love what you are doing so far.

TEDSgrad

iTrader: (4)

Not much accomplished today - but I voted

Took apart the passenger front and put in the new strut mounts. Poor fitment on the plate, but I hammered on it - you can see it on the right side of the pic. It took a bit to get it to clear the lip underneath - no room to go further with the fender.

TEDSgrad

iTrader: (4)

Any suggestions on how to weld the swivel jacks?
The spring pocket has a very uneven center and there is a lot of space.

Guest

Plasma cutter maybe. I would suggest if last resort to just get a whole bunvh of grinding disks and take off that stamped metal reing secion that retains thge factory spring. Get that screw plate as deep as you can so you can run the longest spring possible. I would sugest drilling a center pilot hole FIRST for regeremce where the center of the factory spring pocket is from the top side material (drill all the way through the top of the kmember-) then cut and or grind away the underneath ring section.

TEDSgrad

iTrader: (4)

OoohhhhhKaaayyyyyy, I understand the drilling part. I'm not sure if there is a flat surface on the k-member to weld the swivel plate. I'll drill & remove the raised section (dome) of the spring pocket and leave enough in case I need to weld the plate to the spring contact point. I guess I have to remove some of the dome section before I can see what's going on.
Should I be considering an 11" spring rather than the 9.5"? I know later how far up in there I can go.

In case anyone wonders where Double Bratville is, here is a hint. It is in my backyard and here is a pic from Sept '09. The place and the double brat sandwich are legendary.

TEDSgrad

iTrader: (4)

Duh, yeah it's flat. I just wasn't thinking straight after the words "plasma cutter."

84 1LE

iTrader: (9)

Are you welding the flat piece in the pic to your crossmember?
Isnt that suppose to face down & the other part w/ the "cup" goes into the x-member.The "cup" portion fits around the outside of the ring, like the OE spring, right.
Doesnt the threaded piece have a square drive on the end?
Is that a ground control weight jack?

TEDSgrad

iTrader: (4)

84 1le You can get better pics & info here:
https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/susp...lbs-its-2.html

I am keeping the factory k-member - you can see the two holes cut in the pics.
Very slow progress, today. I took everything but the a-arm out of the drivers' side.
I tried a cutting wheel, but the angle wasn't helping me. I got out the air chisel and rattled my fillings all afternoon. Finally, I am ready for welding tomorrow on the pass side. I drilled three holes in the plate to help with welding - not much room in there.
Question: How does one grease the swivel ball?

Thirdgen89GTA

iTrader: (5)

Should have joined us for our rental a few weeks ago. We had the track to ourselves for 2 days.

I beat on the daily driver, it was fun.

TEDSgrad

iTrader: (4)

I hope to, soon ThirdGenGTA

My younger brother & I always wanted to road race. I chose cars - he chose motorcycles. I went to college - he raced. He became a natl champ & moved to Paris to attempt FIMA (world grand prix). In '94, he imported the first Aprilia 250 works bike in the AMA as team owner, while living in Paris. His team took 2nd @ Road America (see pic). I drove him out to Laguna Seca in my Formula for the '94 FIMA race - took 18th (no sponsor!). I was so proud.
In March '97, CART raced in Rio & F1 in Sao Paulo on back-to-back weekends. We were going to meet in Rio. My brother died in Oct '96 in Paris - same thing as the actor John Ritter (aortic arch fracture).
In '04, I left a Fortune 100 career & sacrificed my future car upgrades to attend Trinity Evangelical Divinity School (TEDS graduate). After seminary, I was betrayed and had some unfortunate things happen. Presently, I have have a good job while others are unemployed. While I wait to enter the ministry, my car dream has come back to me after I had let it go - go figure!
I say this to encourage others. Bad stuff happens. We can't control life. But when we are behind the wheel of our cars, we can control the ups & downs, the stops & starts, the left & right turns. How will you prepare for these in life?
We all have stories to tell. They're just as inspiring as the mods/repairs to our cars. Dreams still come true!

Back to the mods.....

Guest

Looking good. You took out more than what I was expecting or refering too, but considering good welding skills I do not see why that plate can't be welded in there making it as strong as the previous can was. I was refering to grinding off the protruded ring section and leaving the flat area where the existing spring layed- in other words, I was saying to cut the hole about 1/2" smaller in diameter so as to lay the new threaded plate onto the underneath, not through it (Just for future reference- like how Berk did on his somewhat).

Also,I see Ted is not your name??? Sorry for your loss. I was told once that people in life that do not experience true sorrow, never really experience true joy either- Life always has its ups and down (I could write a book) but its those ups we appriciate so much more after we heal from those downs.

Good luck, Dean

Guest

Also on the note of spring length-

You always want to run the longer spring possible. Given the choices of two springs both 800 lb rate at one inch compression, yet one a free height of 9" and the other a free height of 10 inches, the longer one stays more consistant in rate value through compression. Longer springs ar always a better choice.

Just how long of a spring can you use? I can not tell you that. Its a trial and error thing with all cars because of many varible factors. What works for one person does not always work for the next.

racing geek

iTrader: (5)

Send me a pm next time you'll be at the track. If the car is under construction next time this happens I'd still like to visit to help in the pits or something. I'm in Milwaukee but visit Sheboygan all the time.

TEDSgrad

iTrader: (4)

I've always been reluctant to post on fora. Seen how some people have been taken apart. I'll give out my first name: Brian. After learning so much on this forum, I just had to give back in some way. Even if its all been done before.
Bridge welded in the plate today, took awhile and company stopped over.
A-arm is in, Dean you're right. Spring height could be 11" or more. I do have the swivel as high as it will go for easy spring install, though. I put heater hose over the top coil. I'll put in the 9.5" 850# for now. I'm still waiting on Ed for the 6 piston front assembly. Not sure how the stock brakes will go back on the Racecraft spindles. Nothing ever comes with instructions and you just have to figure it out
I'm planning on late Feb early March for body work & paint. My tired L98 will have to wait till.....214k and never had the valve covers off. A testimony to keeping clean fluids in the car!
Driver's side is ready for more air chisel tomorrow and then the weld. The project is finally picking up some speed. If I have no interuptions, I'll have the pass side done and the swivel in by tomorrow. Hoping to have the car on the ground Sat eve.
POR-15 over the welds. Mechanics/welding is not my area of expertise so I won't post the bare pic. I put a washer between the plate and the frame rail just to make sure the bridge weld was all spring cup/k-member and not frame. That spring cup metal is tough stuff. On the other hand, the hole saw went through the frame rail very easily. Swivel bolt went right up with no problems. Air gun from the top spun the bolt right up. I will have to move that hose and maybe some kind of grommet or rubber hose over the threads of the swivel bolt as they pass through the rail, but it's dead center and probably won't touch. Pass side needs just the strut & spindle to go in and bolt everything together.
The third pic has the swivel can fully to one side vs the 2nd pic straight up and down.

TEDSgrad

iTrader: (4)

This pic is the bolt through the rail.

Thirdgen89GTA

iTrader: (5)

April 23rd and 24th, already booked.

I'll have my car there, even if its just for a touring lap. i'll have something to run, and whatever I do will have BETTER brake pads on it. Factory brake pads on a G6 GTP don't hold up lol!

TEDSgrad

iTrader: (4)

I got the strut/spindle in and bolted. Just as I feared - nothing to hold the calipers on to the spindle. Anyone got any ideas. I can't stay in the garage spot past Sat eve, I may have to push it out and park it. Don't know when Ed's brakes will arrive - they'll have brackets. I e-mailed Racecraft 2 weeks ago in case this happened. I just got a quick response - yeah, they'll work with OEM. Double failure - I love this hobby!!
The driver's spring can was much easier after having gone through it already. I used a cutter around the dome, which still left a considerable lip (1st pic). Then I air chiseled some ears in as far as the ring, and hammered them down flat leaving plenty of material to weld to (2nd pic). I recommend this strategy. Welded and then POR-15 painted. Tomorrow I'll bolt everything in - minus brakes. I'll keep the swivel bolt up as high as is safe for the first time I put it down as a reference point. I'll adjust with/when the brakes. I have not attempted any changes in the back yet, either. Can't even roll back and forth with no brakes - frustration.
Oh well, I'm not running it anywhere til Spring. I do want to store it off-site til it sees the body/paint shop.

Guest

Brian, I like the looks of that second picture. Good method increment cutting the rind then hammering it flat. Why? I think that gives not only good materal to weld around the jack screw plate from underneath, but also to weld it from atop for added strength filling the increment slots and grinding the welds flat for asthetics in case anyone could poptheir head upunderthere looking at your quality of work from inside the wheelwell.

Coming together. I will be real curious if an 11" spring would work in there. I ran a 12" on mine with no isolator in the standard spring pocket (no weight jack) and my fender hegiht was 24 3/4" with an 800 lb spring on a V6 car. You had thanked me for my contributions, I think I should also thank you for yours. This is good info for future reference when anyone is contiplating installing underhood adjustable weight jackers.

Dean

ps- mattr of fact, I am going to link your thread here to the "Ultimate suspension" link in the sticky under weight jackers.

TEDSgrad

iTrader: (4)

Thank You Dean, that makes me feel good --> contributing.
Everything is in. Got an e-mail from Fed Ex last night. The brakes are on their way (Tues or Wed). I also got a reprieve on the garage spot, so I don't have to move it till the brakes are in.
I'm hoping to have it on the ground Thurs.

Brian

TEDSgrad

iTrader: (4)

Here is the location of the driver's side bolt. Carefully pried the brake line away - will put in a Wilwood partitioning valve in Feb and relocate the lines for easy access.

//<86TA>\\

iTrader: (14)

neat, im actually doing this too (under hood jacks), this winter on my 92 along with some front end work. pics are helpful, i was curious if the bolts would be able to stay in the from rails and not cut into the sides toward the engine more.

I was going to use the standard 1 1/8 jack bolts, but i kinda like the swivel cups on those ones, so i may go back to the 1" bolts. I just like the fine threads better though... i suppose i could swap the swivel over to the larger bolts

TEDSgrad

iTrader: (4)

86TA - You might be able to gain a little, but I don't think it would be significant. You have to have that bolt perpendicular to the plate - it has a long threaded collar. The plate placement might give you a little, but still, you want that plate centered. I was more concerned with hole-cutting good holes with the bolt being centered on the 1 1/4" hole.

Having brake fitment issues: https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/brak...ml#post4732117

I can get the rim on about 3/4" to an inch on the wheel lug bolts, but it will not seat on the rotor. I may have to spacer it for now . Gotta git 'er down on the ground today. At least I'll have some initial ride height pix, later. Looks like I'll be storing it on-site for the winter .

TEDSgrad

iTrader: (4)

Finally,
It's on the ground with brakes fitted in the stock rims! I only need the right wheel studs, and the front is finished. The front is at 26" right and back at 27 in pic. I think I might try 26.5 in front and 27.5 in back.
I'll be scheduling the alignment shop in early March.


220,000 miles, & original paint (not even a touch up) - for a couple more months! I rarely see people retain the two-tone paint scheme when re-painting. What do you think? Two-tone or solid red?

//<86TA>\\

iTrader: (14)

looking good. the 2 tone is different, i say keep it

just curious, by chance have to looked at hte rear coil overs with the car sitting on its own weight? what kind of shock travel do you have left? i found both of my setups to be lacking in that department and had to relocate the lower mounts.

TEDSgrad

iTrader: (4)

Yes, I am curious too. My car hasn't left the driveway since Nov when I started the project. I've been reading here, and just haven't found the "right" solution, yet. Relocating the mounts is the leading solution, but so far I'm not settled on how to do it.
Also, I've lost a bit of turning radius with the racecraft spindles. It hits the sway bar link with no bump stop. Looking for a solution on that, as well. Here's a pic

scooter

iTrader: (11)

That may get a little better with the suspension under its own weight since that is at full droop right now. I am also wondering if it wouldnt be as bad with stock A arms

//<86TA>\\

iTrader: (14)

if the sway bar mount is in the stock location, it would be the same with the stock a-arms, or any aftermarket arm with a stock location sway bar mount.

interesting this issue hasnt come up before?

solution? cut and weld a relief in that gusset?

hellz_wings

iTrader: (2)

So the racecraft drop spindle comes in contact with the sway bar endlink at full lock? Weld on steering stops maybe? Hmm..You have spohn a-arms so you could buy the steering stops that they sell that go around the a-arm tube.

//<86TA>\\

iTrader: (14)

the arm in the picture has a steering stop, its on the other side.

regardless, if that brace is hitting the end link before lock, thats a **** poor design by racecraft, and totally unacceptable. (if its contacting before lock)

dust3r

iTrader: (1)

Right now, I have an UMI a-arm on one side of my car, and a stock a-arm on the other side of the car with racecraft's drop spindles. I will check tomorrow, or friday (when I swap the other UMI a-arm out for a stock a-arm) to see if the spindles contact the steering stop, or the endlink at full lock.

TEDSgrad

iTrader: (4)

That is not even at full lock. I have lost some steering radius. The gusset does look like it can be cut for a relief - the gusset looks like it's just for those holes. The actual arm to the tie rod looks strong enough. I've sent this pic to Racecraft, but no response. I am concerned with this issue.
I have next week off, to get the car in shape for Road America. I will call them and see what's going on.
I drove the car out of the driveway on Tues for the fist time up and down the street just slowly checking things out. The wheels appear better centered in the wheel wells than before. Feel better about this issue. My alignment is sched for Wed next week.

White'89

iTrader: (8)

Please let us know if the issue is because of the tubular A-arms because I was really interested in a set of racecraft spindles myself.

//<86TA>\\

iTrader: (14)

it has nothing to do with the a-arms, its the spindle. the sway bar mount location is the same of tubular arms as they are stock.

im beginning to think the racecraft spindles are designed for drag applications, where a good turning radius, and a front sway bar, are not of real concern

TEDSgrad

iTrader: (4)

e-mailed Racecraft the pic - they called while I was at work, yesterday. I will call them on Monday and find out. Keep you posted
Brian

hellz_wings

iTrader: (2)

That would be a shame.. That would mean there's no drop spindle out there for street or non-drag applications.

TEDSgrad

iTrader: (4)

I spoke with Racecraft. They were very helpful - even did a mock up and sent pics of stock a-arm. Even though I eye-balled the a-arms, I now believe that Spohn moved the sway bar end link attach point! They welded a tab on the arm, and the stock position would be right through the tubular arm - that's why they welded a tab on.
After speaking with Racecraft, I decided to cut the gusset and will weld a piece further back inwards. I'll use a boxed piece further in. After cutting, I still have 1/2" to 3/4" clearance inside that major space. Plenty of room to re-brace. Racecraft said that the gusset added a significant amount of strength to the piece (I think it's pretty strong already). They gave me this choice, or moving the tab on the a-arm. I did not think that would give me significant clearance, anyway.
We had 10" of snow Tues night, but it's melting fast. That forced me to move my alignment appt to tomorrow at 2pm.
I'm driving it around on the city streets, today. Feels stiff, but not jarring. Takes RR tracks with ease. I think Dean's suggestion on the articulating swivel cup weight jacks is a fantastic way to go. Very pleased!
Have a slight rub on drivers side only during left turns. It's barely rubbing on the plastic insert in the wheel well. Will speak with alignment shop tomorrow. Maybe lengthening the Spohn adj a-arm (firewall side only) will help in several ways; camber, & wheel clearance (don't need much). My wheels were always very close to rubbing in stock form. Front hub to rear hub is exactly 101" on both sides. When the new rubber goes on tomorrow, I'll need more clearance.
After alignment, I'll put high temp brake fluid in, and this project will be done. I should make the Midwest F-Body event at Road America on Sunday May 1 (have to work Sat).
I'll post again after alignment.

White'89

iTrader: (8)

Thanks TED.

Thirdgen89GTA

iTrader: (5)

I look forward to seeing your car at Road America. I'll be in the G6 GTP as the auto in the gta is all sorts of bad for RA.

TEDSgrad

iTrader: (4)

Got the car aligned today: 5.0L & 5.5R caster, -.75 camber both with 3/32 toe. Shop had no problems. No need for a-arm adjustments! I'm disappointed that I did not get a printed read-out. They used an older mechanical set-up as the digital set-ups would not accommodate my lowered stance.
Brand new rubber barely rubs the plastic wheel well inserts at full lock only (both sides). That's no different from stock as I recall - Wow, 22 yrs ago!
It's raining here. Will wait for tomorrow to take some sharp cloverleafs and to post final pics (including the weld-in gusset support).

Brian

TEDSgrad

iTrader: (4)

Here is the pic with two 1/4" thick steel pieces welded into the gusset area, then slathered in POR-15. This will keep the gusset strong and give me the clearance need - have an 1/8" clearance from the grommet at full lock (not the metal washer which would be more, yet).

TEDSgrad

iTrader: (4)

Here is the low slung stance as I was driving around today.


Have not bottomed out on any bump stops, yet. Even tried a few times.

//<86TA>\\

iTrader: (14)

stance looks good, not to high, not low enough where you will hit everything on the road either. i like it.

shame you had to carve up the spindles though.

hellz_wings

iTrader: (2)

Looks like you took a chunk out of the spindle.. Does every racecraft spindle need to be modified like this to not hit the sway bar end link?

TEDSgrad

iTrader: (4)

No, RC is OEM. That means they designed to go with stock a-arm. Spohn could not have the end link through the middle of the tube on the a-arm, so they welded a tab on the side of the tube which changes the stock position of the end link. Any tube a-arm will have this problem. It's part and parcel of working with different aftermarket companies. I welded in more than I took out. The piece of gusset I would not call a "chunk." The gusset is there to strengthen the curved steering arm of the spindle.
The RC spindle is a stout piece. I'm not worried and the cut & weld is behind the scenes. Not everyone welds in their own garage, however!
Welding is required for the coil-over rears (Spohn plates) and with the swivel weight jacks in the front coil pockets, anyway. So anyone attempting this will be able to handle this little detour.

hellz_wings

iTrader: (2)

crap so RC spindles and UMI a-arms are a no go without modifying the spindles? Could you modify the a-arms instead?

TEDSgrad

iTrader: (4)

Yes, RC gave me the option of moving the tab on the tubular a-arm for more clearance, or the gusset option that I chose.
I'm not concerned with altering the gusset. The steering arm is beefy - the whole piece is stout. I did re-support it. It hides behind the wheel.

On any tubular a-arm, the link attachment point is never going to be through the tube itself - the attach point has to be moved to the side in some manner. Moving it to the side, causes RC OEM measurements to be off and to come in contact with the gusset. I can't blame RC for building it to be used with stock a-arms.

Here are their remarks: "I mocked our spindle up on a factory a-arm and measured the factory turning radius against the stop at 33 degrees. Then turned the spindle the other direction to 33 degrees and still achieved an 1 1/8" clearance from the steering gusset to the center of the sway bar hole. The location of the sway bar tab looks to be moved much closer to the ball joint then the factory arm. The angle that the link is laying at is also a good indication."

Moving the attach point closer to the ball joint is always a good idea - if the attach point has to be moved. If you look at their pic, the hole (attach point) would be directly through any tubular a-arm. Look at the location of the hole to a-arm geometry - the big stamped steel unit allows for the hole in this location. Spohn moved it and necessarily so. I believe any tubular a-arm maker would have to. Our problem is that we don't get all this disclosed to us, until we're into the build and have to modify, ourselves

You can't get mad at anyone. It's just inherent in the aftermarket modifying process, especially when using different suppliers. And of course, we don't know which questions to ask, until we're having a problem.

But that's were this board is such a good resource

Everyone should have a good friend who works for a local parts supply
He was amazed at how well my car drove, how low it is, not harsh at all, and how much he liked the seats. He's driven/rode in a lot of cars!
I'm extremely satisfied with the project.

Now I need more power.............next winter's project.

I'll post some final thoughts after my track experience.

hellz_wings

iTrader: (2)

Cool stuff there.. True about everything being a chance when mixing and matching aftermarket parts.. Thank god for TGO and guys like you lol otherwise this may have been a very costly purchase! I'm also glad it ended up working out for you in the end.

//<86TA>\\

iTrader: (14)

since all aftermarket a-arms are built differently, you cant say that this end link issue would be with all the different manufactures. Its possible Spohn moved it and others built the arm differently so the mount is not moved. You would have to measure whatever parts you have to determine if they are the same as stock or altered.

but yes, not all aftermarket parts play nicely with other parts. thats what happens when you start modifying things