Well, it's getting pretty cold here in NY and this will be my first winter with my 'bird. It will also be my first winter with rear wheel drive so I'm just wondering what sorts of things I should do to stay alive. I couldn't think of any other forum to post this in. So...

I was out the other night dicking around in half frozen rain and I took a corner fast on purpose to see what I should expect in the future and the rear end of the car swung out like I've never seen before, I ended up 150 degrees from the direction I came from (on a 90 degree turn). Has anybody else noticed how much the tail likes to swing out?


I plan to put a sand bag in the back, but...

How necessary are snow tires? What is the best way to go down snowy hills?

If anybody has some winter preparation/survival rituals, please feel free to post them.

Thanks in advance.

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1984 Firebird - Daily driver, 305 LG4, 3.23 rear, T5 - Hurst short shifter, Edelbrock 600 CFM 1406 carb, Performer intake - Edelbrock Pro-Flow air filter, gutted cat, IROC 16x8 5 Spoke Wheels, AIWA bargain basement (from Sears of course) CD player, Eight-ball shift ****
Check out my ride here

"IT'S SNOWING! TO THE HIGH SCHOOL PARKING LOT!" - The Mustang and Firebird face off in the dead of winter.

 

I put 3 75lb sand bags in my trunk. Fully inflated tires. Drive nice and careful, slow when possible, If it's possible to not come to a complete stop but still please do stop for the rest of us, then do so you don't get stuck. If sliding try not to hit brakes immediatly ease in on brake slowly, very slowly. Otherwise you might as well be in 4 inches of water doing 55mph and try to stop within 4 ft. I'm missing stuff but if anyone else wants to join in...they can add more. Untill i can think of the rest thats all.

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89 IROC-Z 350 TPI

-Flowmaster Catback
-Performance Resource Chip
-700R4 (Rebuilt) Too much done to actually list
-K&N Airfilters
-Ported Plenum
-2.77 Gears (not much to brag about but eh, its there)
-MSD 8.5 mm plug wires
-Gutted cat
-!AIR
-Gutted Air Boxes

 

Rule #1: DRIVE SLOW!

Rule #2: When in doubt, see Rule #1

Dale

 

yep,

drive like a wimp! It works. Watch out for the idiots. I swear, you won't think you're going fast until you start sliding, then you feel like your doing about 100.

If you've got a stick DON'T downshift to slow down. I don't know why people insist on this but they are WRONG. Downshifting gives you the opportunity to lock (well, not lock, but slide) the rear wheels. Couple that with front brakes that are applied and you're now looking the wrong direction. You could put it into neutral (auto or standard) to eliminate the engine braking (standard) or powering (auto) of the rear wheels.

My rule of thumb is, If I can't get there in my rear wheel drive vehicle, I don't need to go there. See, nobody can stop anybetter than anybody else out there. The morons in the "4WD" trucks that think they can drive fast are just that: MORONS. We've all only got 4 wheel braking, and that's the bottom line.

Drive slow and watch out!

Clem

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Clem
SCCA TransAm Series Race Mechanic/CrewChief
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1983 Z28 with LG4, 5 speed, and (unfortunately) T-tops
1983 Z28, NO T-tops, (unfortunately) Auto Transmission (hopefully not for long)

[This message has been edited by clemsparks (edited October 31, 2001).]

[This message has been edited by clemsparks (edited October 31, 2001).]

 

Yeah, my policy is usually to drive like a sissy down the hills... I find it useful to go to a parking lot and just skid around to get back into the winter driving thing. I am gonna have some fun in these parking lots this year!

One of you will understand what I'm talking about in the following statement (after a couple emails): I am pretty content with the IROC wheels on my car and it seems like a real hassle to go back to the 16x8 Formula wheels. I may break down some day and get some more fitting wheels. I don't mind the offers though, it's mostly a compliment

BTW the pic in my sig is my car's good side, I switched from the side shot when some wiseass decided to poke fun at the primer coming through and the cheap auto spray paint the previous owner used. (the body itself is immaculate)

 

Well, don't do stupid maneuvers and you'll be fine. I've driven my Firebird in every possible weather condition since I got it in January 1994. I've driven it thru hurricanes, blizzards, flooded roads, etc. I even drove it when NJ was closed for a Blizzard "state of emergency", meaning, no plows were out. I've never lost control of the car. The only equipment I've had is 4 tires (one year, the rears were bald- that was fun!), common sense, and in times of extreme snow, a full tank of gas. No studded tires, no sandbags, no concrete, no tire chains. I don't mean to come off like an a-hole but all you need is common sense... so many f-bodies get wrecked because kids think they're driving SUV's or something! (Don't even get me started on those %#C&ing things driving through snow; I've been damn near killed by 'em. How does 4WD help when their all-season tires are caked with snow?)

Hell yeah! Plus, that stuff helps on wet pavement AND dry pavement. The "bite" time of the rear tires is much slower in snow, slower in rain, and fast as hell on dry roads. So practicing in a parking lot can really save your butt if you decide to rocket out of a sidestreet and send the car sideways! The time it'll take in a snow filled parking lot to straighten the car = 30 seconds. The time you'll need on dry pavement = 1 second.


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-Tom P (Hot rodded 1986 Firebird 2.8l)

 

I have heard this said of 4WD referring to people who think it lets them go anywhere: 4WD will get you stuck deeper and faster than 2WD

 

My solution was to drive my beater. I had the Z out for the first snow, and then when I had a REALLY hard time stopping on a bridge I decided I didn't want to put up with that and pulled out the beater.

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Trevor
87 Z28 - LG4 - 305
Hedman Headers, Y-Pipe, Dynomax Exhaust, K&N Open Air Filter
2 - 8" MTX Black Golds, Clarion 6x9's, Boston 4x6's, Sony Deck

http://immortaltk.tripod.com/z.html

90 Plymouth Laser (Beater)
"If that's your beater I'm paying you too f!cking much" - My boss

 

Make sure your rear brakes are in perfect working order.

 

There is one thing wrong with what you have assumed about 4*4's

They are safer in snow because they have better suited tires and they have the benifits of a front wheel drive with the acceleration better then anything on the road at the time. And I for one don't drive like a maniac in the snow.

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You have walked onto the biggest baddest dog porch and you will be dealt with accordingly.

I'd rather be historically accurate than politically correct!

 

I know for a fact that 4x4's are better in snow... but most people think that they can just drive faster then... so they drive at normal speeds and guess what? They go flying off the road and flip over. With 4WD the soccer moms and know nothing stock brokers (not all stock brokers are stupid) out there go off to the beach and get stuck axle deep in the sand etc. you get my point. Same goes for AWD... I've seen Audi after Audi after Subaru after Subaru "parked" along the side of a river buried axle deep LOL.

 

Our cars are bad enough in the water; drive SLOW in the snow. Don't take corners fast on purpose to see what will happen. That first time, when you're experimenting, could be when you wreck your car. Just be careful.

 

My car will experience her first winter in Calgary this year. I am picking up 5 rims (15X7) with mud/snow tires. We get snow here but not too much ice. I find rear wheel drive very different. Just remember if the wheels can't turn, you lose your "choice" of direction. Some weight in the back is good. Unless there's more than 2 feet of snow or 4" of rain, take it slow and you'll be fine. When I take a turn, I use my "auto" like a manual. I don't let it shift into 2nd until I am straightened out otherwise a nasty 180 might result. Stay safe. Take care.

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'82 "IROC-Z" 350

 

I don't do most of my expirimenting on rainy streets, mostly in snowy parking lots with no one around. I was probably only going 15 MPH when I did this and I cheated by flooring it around the corner... I probably put more thought into my driving than 95% of the people out ther. I am the guy that most of those morons will see driving by laughing at them when they've dropped their $30,000 Lexus into a 2' ditch.

While we're on the topic I have to share my two favorite morons from last year...

First Moron: Chevy Cavalier, mid December driving 50 MPH in a 40 zone through slush. This guy comes flying around the corner while I'm thinking "If he's not going to fast then I'm being too careful" and sure enough, over the shoulder between a house and a 2' diameter tree and he skids to a stop in this person's yard (I'm betting 90% chance he pissed his pants).

Second Moron: 80's Civic sedan sitting on its side blocking some guy's driveway. I have no idea how they did this, but I drove by right as the owner of the house pulls up and that guy was pissed...

 

Just a few thoughts . . .

1. Better suited tires - maybe. Since not many 4x4's go autocrossing or road racing, you aren't going to see many with stiff low profile rubber, which are admittedly a poor choice for winter driving regardless of the vehicle. However, comparison against a car with tires with similar bad weather capability is likely to conclude in favor of the car.

2. Improved acceleration is a mixed bag. Being able to get started from a dead stop on an upgrade is useful. But being able to accelerate to a higher speed than the generally poorer braking and cornering capabilities of the typical 4x4 can safely support is at best questionable; at worst, it's dangerous.

3. Agreed, not everybody drives a 4x4 like they were an entrant in a desert race, but there are a lot of clueless 4x4 drivers who bought one at least in part for the tough image (as opposed to, say, the domesticated image of a minivan) without any understanding of the limitations. The ones who think that synonyms for "all wheel drive" or "4 wheel drive" are "invulnerable" and "go anywhere, anytime", not the aggressive "NO FEAR" 4x4 types (no brain?) that you occasionally encounter.

Norm

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1979 Malibu w/some cornering tweaks and a few other interesting things

 

Lots of good advice so far.

Smooth = safe. Don't provoke a spin or loss of front end grip by doing anything to extreme, whether that be with the accelerator, brake, steering wheel, or even the clutch.

Spend a little quality time in a deserted parking lot. If all that does is remove or minimize the panic reaction to finding yourself going into a spin, you're already ahead of the game. Picking up the hang of catching a spin is even nicer.

Like Clem said, DON'T downshift to go down a snowy hill. That's strictly a summertime trick to avoid overheating the brakes. In the snow you shouldn't be going anywhere near fast enough to worry about brake fade.

I've found that 50 - 100 lbs of barbell plates, cylinder heads, or other dense items works well in my Malibu. Place it as far forward as you can so that it's as close to over the rear axle as possible. The wrong way to load it - 100 lbs back at the rear bumper - can make a spin worse (and harder to catch) once it gets started than 100 lbs over the rear axle.

Watch ahead for shady patches - more likely for there to be ice instead of just wet.

Norm

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1979 Malibu w/some cornering tweaks and a few other interesting things

 

And we have all those great SUV commercials to blame for that. I especially like (sarcasm!) the one where there's a blizzard outside, and the little baby is sick. Tough guy decides not to wait for the ambulance, and instead drive like a total maniac through unplowed roads. I think the commercial ends with something like "Peace of mind, that's what we're all about."

A. Wait for the ambulance, they can work on the girl as they drive to the hospital.

B. That's a damn good way to kill yourself and your child.

Funny how nobody cares about those commericals, yet, people are against tobacco and fur advertisements.

And if I hear "transfers power from the wheels that slip (announcer pauses)- to the wheels that Grip!" one more time, I'm gonna scream.


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-Tom P (Hot rodded 1986 Firebird 2.8l)

 

Gee kinda sounds like posi-traction doesn't it? Thats only been commonplace option for like 25 years...

 

Apeiron is absolutely right about your brakes. Make sure all four corners are working right. You won't really feel it in dry weather, but in snow, you'll start to spin. My 84 firebird was really bad in the snow with 14x6 rally's and got a lot worse when I put on 15x7 Trans Am rims with wide rear tires. Get tires and rims that are less performance and handling oriented. Try to find a cheap set of 14X6's with good tires. When I got my 79 malibu I put on the 14x6 rally's from my bird with 205/70's and it was a tank last winter. Definitly take everyone's advice about putting heavy stuff in the back. Hope all this helps.

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90 IROC convertible, dead stock 305TPI and TH700R4
79 Malibu, 350, ZZ3 cam, Vortec heads, Performer RPM manifold Th200r4, GN rear, real sleeper(excuse for not doing any body work)

[This message has been edited by BigL350 (edited November 01, 2001).]

 

Hah, the wonderfully handling F-Body.. I can't take my car over 1/2 throttle in the rain, otherwise I'm sideways... and it has brand new tires on it. I'd rather drive my r6 in the rain than the GTA.. but thats why I have the Supra.. It's RWD as well, but it outhandles my GTA 10000 times...


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Decently worked 87 GTA; finally got a good time out of her: 12.72 @ 116.4mph
other toys: 2002 Yamaha R6 , and a 97 Supra TT

 

Buy yourself a good set of snow tires (I bought Bridgestone Blizzaks) and accept the fact that the car will be less fun to drive until spring. These tires break loose on dry pavement pretty easy and on snow just a little bit more...