rads84n94camaro

Hows it goin third gen. Im looking for some direction on where to go as far as taking my car down the road for best handling. It seems like everyones got a different opinion on where to start with their cars as far as setting up for cone track and autocross racing. Currently my car is just all stock as far as suspension parts go. I do have Torq Thrust IIs with Firehawk GTz 245/45r17 tires, but after reading countless post it seems as though better wheels and tires is a factor to look into down the road. A nice set of BBS wheels would be my ideal but right now my wallet just isnt that deep. So from what i gathered on here it seems a lot of guys say go with some good struts and shocks to start off. So the two things i was thinking about starting off with was a

Koni Sport Strut Shock car set with adjustable rear shocks from Strano Perfomance since hes having a sale on them

Also UMI - Lower Control Arms & On-Car Adjustable Panhard Bar Kit

What do you guys think as far as that to get me started and start feeling out the car?

Also while in the process of doing all this ill be replacing bushings as well.

BlackenedBird

iTrader: (5)

Like we tell every other Newcomer to the world of Autocross. Drive it stock to start with. Learn to drive it as-is. You'll be surprised at just how agile these cars are bone stock. Then read the Rule Book. See what the classes are & what mods are allowed in what classes. That will then determine what parts you buy for your car because some mods may put you in a higher class than you can afford to successfully compete in.

89_RS

Agreed. Everyone would be surprised at how well their car will handle only with the worn out stock stuff. Once you're used to just how far you can push the limits of the stock setup, then you'll want to tinker with other things.

Only if I was racing for money would I really heed this. Then again, where I live in the Midwest, there really aren't competitive autocrosses to begin with. I think ORP in Indy hosts some AX/RR for money events, but they also have a tech book that requires alot of safety that the weekend guy just isn't interested in. For AX in the Midwest you're generally doing it in a parking lot or shutdown runway of a municipal airfield. And at that its a very small group of people at that. The last time I went to AX, there were 20 cars total there and everyone got 6 runs. Bigger cities like Indy and East Chicago draw more cars, but you also get fewer runs.

RR out here almost requires being friends with a cattle farmer who has a back 40 lot that he never uses and a gravel company/paver so that your track stays in "shape" in the least respectable sense of the word.

Just remember, unless money is involved, the only person you're racing against is yourself. Just go out and have fun. Spend as much or as little money as you wish and enjoy the hobby of working on cars.

UMI Sales

Like the Most Interesting Man in the World would say, "I don't always modify my car for auto-x, but when I do, I choose UMI..."

Base91

iTrader: (1)

As has been said don't spend a dime other than on gas and entrance fees. Unless you are already an experienced driver the car is way better than you are and likely will be for some time to come. You'll take as much or more of your lap times just by learning how to drive than with several thousand bucks worth of mods. Sorry UMI. Save your money for stuff that is totally worn out or breaks. And tires because you can probably wear them out in a couple of seasons. They are the biggest recurring expense.

Tibo

iTrader: (15)

When you are ready to upgrade/replace items, these will be the best to do: If you need new struts/shocks go with a set of Tokico Illumina's or Konis, with Moog springs, those will keep you in the same class. An alignment that is a little more aggressive. Next pieces would be a three point strut tower brace, Transmission cross member mounted torque arm and sub frame connectors. Lastly LCAs and panhard bars both in on car adjustable spherical rod ends.

plum92_camaro

From experience I recommend a wonderbar, strut tower brace, and subframe connectors to reinforce the front frame. I've been running my 92 bone stock and now have a stress cracked frame behind the steering gearbox. Just get one step ahead of the weaknesses these cars have.

Homer23

I would say drive your car as is for your first season of racing, or at least 8 races, whichever comes first. After that, the other guys already made good suggestions on suspension upgrades.

When you get a good set of summer tires, start out by putting them on a set of 16x8 spare camaro wheels from the junkyard or a set of corvette rims (will need wheel adapters) that are used to keep costs down. Use them just for racing to make the tires last.

The wheel size is key, not necessarily how good it is. 225/50R16 has many selections of performance tires, but depending on the auto manufacturer industry, it may or may not have the same choices in 5 or 6 years.

InfernalVortex

iTrader: (4)

Is that 225 a typo? Do you mean 245?


Also, how big of a deal is the RS vs Z28 steering box ratio?

Tibo

iTrader: (15)

A 225 series tire is ok for a stock size wheel, 245 would be better. A sidewall in a 50 size is not the best idea. You would really want to be in the 30 range at least.

paul_huryk

30 series sidewall?

SlickTrackGod

No you don't. A 30 sidewall even on a 335 wide tire is still getting thin and has absolutely no forgiveness or predictability.

For a 245 width tire , you really do not want to go under a 45 series sidewall. These suspinsions also are not taylored for a thin sidewall tire bushing wise. there is way too much deflection in a stock car and the thin sidewall tire will cause a very darty chassis on a stock suspension. You will be sawing at the wheel franticly.

SlickTrackGod

Autox is aways enjoyable to watch a new person with a $100K plus car go out there and be humbled. Its really about car control in general and racing line. Once you gather that experience (an trust me even an experienced road racer has trouble his first time jumping on an autox course- I've witnessed this several times in life) then its about bring the car up to your desires. You lap time comparisons to the other regular competitors will gie you a direct reference as for if your car alterations are benefitting or not. SOmetimes a car will "feel" better but run slower.

Autox is the most technical type of racing out there. THe confusing part all beginers have with the tracks is unlike a road course you have to learn how to read the cones. So many people focus on the corner they are in and come out wrong for the next sequence of courners. On a road course the road shows you where to go and the next corner is generally a little straightaway away. Memory+ experience in course walking to figure out where you need to be at speed(compared to walking speed) is a learned trait- it comes in time....then you start modifying. If this is not true then every guy in a Ferrari would beat every other car out there every time- this doesn't happen in autox- but will alot of times on road courses.

Base91

iTrader: (1)

I second that. It took me quite some time to be better than my car and my is not that great. From the posts it seems most people spend more time thinking about the car and not their own skill development. Which is free!

paul_huryk

Exactly...

A 30 series 245 tire is going to be a 20" wheel fitment - based on overall tire diameter... Bad for autocross!

The optimal size for 95% of thirdgens is a 275-40-17 tire, which is 30mm wider than a 245-50-16 and has an optimal sidewall height and excellent tire choices.

Homer23

Most people think their driving skills are good, especially the less they have raced.

Ask me how I know.

And how many people have $100k cars in auto-x competitions when they first start out? The priciest cars in stock form I have seen racing are C6 corvettes and hopefully I can catch those drivers with some summer tires.

SlickTrackGod

I deal with this first hand. Here is an example of of a clueless person in a $300k+ Ferrari 599 Fiorano this weekend. They are afraid of the car and have no idea what these cars can actually do. THis guy hits the brakes where he is suppose to, but not at enough speed coning intot he braking zone and then not nearly enough brake pressure and takes his braking zones way too long and soft. Just stay in a honda buddy.


I do not have incar fotage of me doing paid "Pro Drives" but trust me when I tell you I take that 599 down that back stright from 20-80-40mph in 3.5 seconds

Tibo

iTrader: (15)

As a possible teaching moment to myself and other members, I would like either or both of you to explain this. My thoughts are that nearly all sports cars these days are going to >/=18" rims with very small/short sidewall tires. The overall diameter would be at least 20". New camaro, corvette, mustang, viper, bmw, mazda speeds. Yes their suspensions are different, but probably more so because their cars bodies/subframes are also made differently, so I understand even that is an apples to oranges comparison. But If shorter sidewalls were a problem I would tend to think that the auto makers would shy away from those sidewall sizes and we would still see 16 and 17" rims with 40 and 50 series tires. Shorter sidewalls are much stiffer. I think its a slippery slope to talk about bushings when the far majority of people who own thirdgen's or even autocross thirdgen's are using steering components and bushings that are >/= 20 years old, negating a proper interpretation for something as minute as a difference of 10-15 in sidewall height.

paul_huryk

I'll try to explain it and others may chime in...

Every vehilce has an optimal tire sidewall height - some cars it may be 2", others 4"; a big SUV might be 8".

The optimal sidewall depends on the car's weight, the overall tire diameter (what can physically fit in the wheel wells), the suspension design, chassis stiffness, unsprung weight, spring stiffness and a few others I'm sure.

Third gen cars are saddled with two items that restrict the tires to a relatively tall sidewall height; first is the live rearend, the other is the macpherson struts with springs in internal pockets. I never considered the rear to be a huge issue - lots of cars in every make came with them; but very low profile tires have the tendency to ride bad and also skip around bumpy turns. The front suspension design is the real issue in my eyes - if you were to run a coil over strut, the spring rate would be adjusted lower and the car would run better with lower profile tires; problem is the space limitations of coil overs against the inside of the front wheels, and the limited space inside the strut towers for an ideal alignment. 4th gens can with a more sophisticated and better riding front suspension, but a similar rear one.

Now on to the new cars out there: new cars typically have double a arm front suspensions with coil overs, rears are typically fully independent and are a lot of times double a-arms in the back too. This gives the car a much more controlled ride without high spring rates, lowers unsprung weight, and also keeps the tires in contact with the road on bumpy turns. Even the 5th gen Camaro has a modern suspension, although its list of weaknesses overwhelms the design. Obviously new cars take advantage of being able to run lower profile tires and still give optimal handling and ride - plus the benefits of being able to run bigger brakes under larger wheels.

Keep in mind that sidewall and tire diameter are independent a lot of times. As an example, my 2011 Lacrosse has an 18" tire - 235-50-18 to be exact, which is almost 2" taller of a tire than a 245-50-16 is. Ditto for a lot of modern cars - the SRT Dodges run a 245-45-20 tire, same width as a 245-50-16, about 1" less total sidewall, but 3" taller overall. Keep this in mind when you see wheel sizes... Ferrari is running tires 2" taller in the rear of its new 458 italia, even though all 4 wheels are 20".

Lots of mathematical trickery when you look at the details.

BTW, the optimal size for a thirdgen is 275-40-17 (for us cratered road northerners) and a 275-35-18 (for those in the smooth road zone in the south and west). That is why CTW Motorsports offers 17" wheels for the 3rd gens - works great for everybody.

Homer23

Oh yeah, I forgot that I'm in a small market where no one wants to buy Porsche boxters or Ferrari 458 Italias.

That was some good instruction. Remember, beginners don't know how to brake or place the car in position for the next corner, not to mention about being scared of the car, scared of braking it or scared to spin out.

SlickTrackGod

Tibo- Sidewall height has relation to tire width. The narrower the tire footprint, the more sidewall you want as to not shockload the tire.

Most of the new supercars you see with 18's and 19's ie the Zr1 Vette the Vipers etc all has wider low profile tires.

20 years ago I was running 335/30 17's on my race vette on the rear on 12.5 " wide wheels, but the fronts I was limited to 9" wide and ran 265 45 15's to keep some tire under it. yes 15 fronts and 17 rears. I ran stagger way back in the day befroe everyone started doing this for looks- I did it for performance value.

@ homer- Carbon brakes have ruined me. People that drive on them for the first time(even when experienced in racing) do not trust them. Ferrari F1 technology is so far advanced in computer controlled braking and when matched to the carbon brakes they are friking incredible. You do not press carbon brakes, you SLAM carbon brakes and you slam them late and slam them hard...but you get off them beforre you enter a corner because the attitude of the chassis under heavy braking g-load will not rotate. Carbon brakes release so incredibly smooth as well so you have a beautiful sweet spot to maintain a little pressure under trailbraking going into the corner just off the slam.

One problem with Carbon brakes. Nothing, and I repeat NOTHING will ever be good enough for me to drive ever again after driving a Scud and a 599 both with Carbon brakes. Youc an take even the Lambos and shove them. There is a reason you do not see Lambos in a racing series- albeit nice cars, they do not hold a candle to Ferrari carbon brakes. You can have all the power in the world, but those brakes are what give me wet dreams. I can only imagine what the F1 cars do. Amazingly it is so easy to drive the cars do it themslelves. Its the person that has to learn to trust the car. Very few have the talent and trust to drive into a corner that deep and not overshoot or bobble.

A Lambo Gallardo will *** around a little when the brake pedal is released too quickly and the throttle not applied. The L560-4 (4 wheel drive version) does decent coming off the corner only becasue of the pull of the front wheels will keep you out of trouble, but the 2 wheel drive car takes alot more skilled driver. If we do not have these cars in active handling the clients would be all over the place and I would be breaking the e-brake levers all day long.

Autox is really about learning a driving style and figuring out what that persons driving style requires in a car setup. It is amazing how many race cars I have jumped into ove rthe years from guys like Tommy Berry who is a 5 time prosolo champ and I do not like their cars. Setup is alot to do with person feel. I use a tight car where most people use a loose car saying loose is fast. Well, when youa re that fast you better have a tight car because a tight car will get loose real quick in deep braking. Most people cdo not use the brake pedal to rotate a car. Brakes are everything in autocross. The initial bite quality, and more improtantly the release quality of the prake pedal and pads are what make or break a good autox car feel.

Dean

edit to add- This is the car we are inside in the video above. It is the 599 GTB Fiorano. THis is Michael Schumachers development child. 0-60 in 3.2 seconds and braking is just as fast with a 100ft 60-0. I have seen where a few magazines have put the 599 Fiorano agains the Zra Vette with the Vette a winner. I have personally driven both and even though the vette will carry corner sspeed a little better (lighter car and wider tires) I would put my money on the Ferrari hands down becasue I feel even most test drivers do not drive this car right. You have to drive the Ferrari differently then most cars because of the attitude of the chassis under braking. THis car is so smooth and fast it scares people to in the change of chassis attitude and the interior feel of a luxury car. If do not settle the chassis with pedal control, the Ferrari will not rotate. but if you do it is a dream come true. The Vette is far easier to drive for a novice driver.