Suspension and Chassis Questions about your suspension? Need chassis advice?

uneven fender heights

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Old Jan 25, 2013 | 07:45 PM
  #1  
TPI-Formula350-'s Avatar
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From: Long Island New York
Car: 89 Formula 350
Engine: Forged 385 H/C/I
Transmission: 700R4-4300 Stall-lockup
Axle/Gears: BW 9 Bolt 3:70
uneven fender heights

I've noticed that my front end is uneven from drive to passenger side. I noticed this last year but being I was going to rebuild the front end I figure it would correct the issue. Well I just finished replacing the steering inner,outer,and center links. I also installed Founders strut mounts,KYB Struts and UMI A-arms. I reused my Hotchkis #1903 1" lowering springs with new spring isolators. I checked them when they were out of the car and they were both the same height.
So before I rebuilt the front end from the ground to top center of the fender opening was 26.5" on the drivers side and 27" on the passenger side(rear of the car is about 28 1/4" on both sides). After the front end rebuild I get the same measurements. I took a look under the car and the UMI a-arm bump stop is just touching the K-member on the drivers side but is about 1/2" away on the passengers side. I just have one old 2 1/4" sleeved end link in on the passenger side..It looks to be having the sway bar running uphill slightly with a bit of what looks to be a load on the end link. I will be removing it and replacing it with ES 2" endlinks to correct the angle and remove the pressure...( don't think the end link is causing the issue but figured I'd fill in all the details)
Any idea whats causing the 1/2" driver to passenger ride height difference????

Last edited by TPI-Formula350-; Jan 25, 2013 at 11:04 PM.
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Old Jan 25, 2013 | 08:40 PM
  #2  
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Re: uneven fender heights

I wouldnt worry at all about a 1/2" difference.
After 25 years and the addition of 460hp is bound to fatigue the chassis a bit.
If it really bothers yo that much, slightly trim the passenger spring unit your height is at 26.5". Really not worth the effort in my opinion.
Do you have SFC's?
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Old Jan 25, 2013 | 08:48 PM
  #3  
TPI-Formula350-'s Avatar
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From: Long Island New York
Car: 89 Formula 350
Engine: Forged 385 H/C/I
Transmission: 700R4-4300 Stall-lockup
Axle/Gears: BW 9 Bolt 3:70
Re: uneven fender heights

Originally Posted by anthony64ss
I wouldnt worry at all about a 1/2" difference.
After 25 years and the addition of 460hp is bound to fatigue the chassis a bit.
If it really bothers yo that much, slightly trim the passenger spring unit your height is at 26.5". Really not worth the effort in my opinion.
Do you have SFC's?
yeah , its had South Side Machine weld in Sub frame connectors in it for around 12 years. The 1/2" difference is some what annoying but after the fight of installing my spring last week I have no desire to remove and trim one.
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Old Jan 26, 2013 | 07:01 AM
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Re: uneven fender heights

Are both front springs indexed correctly and the same? Or maybe one strut is bad?
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Old Jan 26, 2013 | 08:18 AM
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Re: uneven fender heights

I'd suggest not worrying about FENDER height just yet, and instead worry about THE CAR height.

The fender is nothing but a piece of trim. It's not "the CAR".

Make sure THE CAR sits level by measuring from a part of THE ACTUAL CAR ITSELF, such as the "frame" or the K-member. Then if the fenders aren't even, move em around by bending em and with shims and such, to align them to THE CAR.
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Old Jan 26, 2013 | 09:35 AM
  #6  
TPI-Formula350-'s Avatar
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From: Long Island New York
Car: 89 Formula 350
Engine: Forged 385 H/C/I
Transmission: 700R4-4300 Stall-lockup
Axle/Gears: BW 9 Bolt 3:70
Re: uneven fender heights

Originally Posted by jbenge
Are both front springs indexed correctly and the same? Or maybe one strut is bad?
Springs are indexed the same, this happened with new and old struts.
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Old Jan 27, 2013 | 09:48 PM
  #7  
TPI-Formula350-'s Avatar
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From: Long Island New York
Car: 89 Formula 350
Engine: Forged 385 H/C/I
Transmission: 700R4-4300 Stall-lockup
Axle/Gears: BW 9 Bolt 3:70
Re: uneven fender heights

Originally Posted by sofakingdom
I'd suggest not worrying about FENDER height just yet, and instead worry about THE CAR height.

The fender is nothing but a piece of trim. It's not "the CAR".

Make sure THE CAR sits level by measuring from a part of THE ACTUAL CAR ITSELF, such as the "frame" or the K-member. Then if the fenders aren't even, move em around by bending em and with shims and such, to align them to THE CAR.
The A-arm bump stop is touching the k member on drivers side but on the passenger side it 1/2" away. I still need to install my sway bar end links but don't think they will make much difference.
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Old Jan 28, 2013 | 02:24 AM
  #8  
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Re: uneven fender heights

First thing you need to do is to remove the swaybar end links entirely and check the height with the swaybar detached. you could be getting a little preload holding the passenger side up a little bit.

With that said and suggested- to go to the next step if that does not change things- you will then have a chassis that has been welded into that position because the chassis was not squared and was loaded improperly when the SFC's were welded on.

What is puzzling to me is that the rear specs are currently equal but the front specs are different. any front changes are more powerful of changes than the rear of the car is subjected to so the rear will in fact naturally want to remain more constant since its less spring rates as well as less chassis weight back there- however it will not remain equal entirely if the front is equaled in height using preload. If you preload the swaybar to get equal fronts but inducing a 1/2" droop in the RF, the diagonal RR will drop about aprox 1/8-1/4" and then not be equal. It will not drop equivilant, nor will the diagonal LR go up a 1/2" The LR will probably remain the same 28 1/4" and the RR go to about 28-28 1/8" range because of the heavier and dominating RF wheel rate decreasing and saging that side of the chassis in droop as a result in preload change settings of the swaybar.

The other possible senerio is that the SS machine SFC's you have are not holding the chassis in place rigid enough and possibly the sway bar is putting in preload and bending the chassis still. Hopefully that is the case, and not the case of the chassis perminately welded in a tweaked position.

If it IS in fact welded in a tweaked position, then this is a perfect example why I preach to everyone NOT TO weld SFC's into a car with the suspension loaded as most aftermarket vendors suggest people to do- this is what exactly can happen and cause problems when a suspension loaded is not symmetrical prior to welding in SFC's. I always preach to everyone to set the chassis flat on the suspension pickup points without the chassis loaded by the suspension. If those 4 pickup points do not sit flat on the leveled jack stands, then one must weight the chassis with extra artificial weight until the chassis is flat - and then and only then should SFC's be welded perminately in place.

Good luck to you.

Dean

Last edited by SlickTrackGod; Jan 28, 2013 at 02:36 AM.
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Old Jan 28, 2013 | 10:19 AM
  #9  
dads old blue 9's Avatar
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Re: uneven fender heights

couldn't have said it better my self , good to know sofas not the only one with common sense..... LOL
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Old Jan 28, 2013 | 12:25 PM
  #10  
TPI-Formula350-'s Avatar
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Joined: Aug 2003
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From: Long Island New York
Car: 89 Formula 350
Engine: Forged 385 H/C/I
Transmission: 700R4-4300 Stall-lockup
Axle/Gears: BW 9 Bolt 3:70
Re: uneven fender heights

Originally Posted by dads old blue 9
couldn't have said it better my self , good to know sofas not the only one with common sense..... LOL
Welcome to the site...lol
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Old Jan 28, 2013 | 12:34 PM
  #11  
TPI-Formula350-'s Avatar
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 1,644
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From: Long Island New York
Car: 89 Formula 350
Engine: Forged 385 H/C/I
Transmission: 700R4-4300 Stall-lockup
Axle/Gears: BW 9 Bolt 3:70
Re: uneven fender heights

Originally Posted by SlickTrackGod
First thing you need to do is to remove the swaybar end links entirely and check the height with the swaybar detached. you could be getting a little preload holding the passenger side up a little bit.

With that said and suggested- to go to the next step if that does not change things- you will then have a chassis that has been welded into that position because the chassis was not squared and was loaded improperly when the SFC's were welded on.

What is puzzling to me is that the rear specs are currently equal but the front specs are different. any front changes are more powerful of changes than the rear of the car is subjected to so the rear will in fact naturally want to remain more constant since its less spring rates as well as less chassis weight back there- however it will not remain equal entirely if the front is equaled in height using preload. If you preload the swaybar to get equal fronts but inducing a 1/2" droop in the RF, the diagonal RR will drop about aprox 1/8-1/4" and then not be equal. It will not drop equivilant, nor will the diagonal LR go up a 1/2" The LR will probably remain the same 28 1/4" and the RR go to about 28-28 1/8" range because of the heavier and dominating RF wheel rate decreasing and saging that side of the chassis in droop as a result in preload change settings of the swaybar.

The other possible senerio is that the SS machine SFC's you have are not holding the chassis in place rigid enough and possibly the sway bar is putting in preload and bending the chassis still. Hopefully that is the case, and not the case of the chassis perminately welded in a tweaked position.

If it IS in fact welded in a tweaked position, then this is a perfect example why I preach to everyone NOT TO weld SFC's into a car with the suspension loaded as most aftermarket vendors suggest people to do- this is what exactly can happen and cause problems when a suspension loaded is not symmetrical prior to welding in SFC's. I always preach to everyone to set the chassis flat on the suspension pickup points without the chassis loaded by the suspension. If those 4 pickup points do not sit flat on the leveled jack stands, then one must weight the chassis with extra artificial weight until the chassis is flat - and then and only then should SFC's be welded perminately in place.

Good luck to you.

Dean
Thanks Dean for the insight. I have also wondered if the car wasn't loaded properly when the sfc were installed. They have been in the car for over 12 years and the guy welded them in with the suspension loaded as directed by the manufacturer. I also was thinking the car could have been hit before I brought it in 1994. I have to get it on some really level ground and double check it.

Last edited by TPI-Formula350-; Jan 28, 2013 at 12:40 PM.
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Old Jan 31, 2013 | 11:28 AM
  #12  
TPI-Formula350-'s Avatar
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From: Long Island New York
Car: 89 Formula 350
Engine: Forged 385 H/C/I
Transmission: 700R4-4300 Stall-lockup
Axle/Gears: BW 9 Bolt 3:70
Re: uneven fender heights

I seem to be getting lucky. I installed 2.375" ES poly end links and the car is sitting better. My garage floor isn't perfectly level but now my front fenders height different is only 1/4"-5/16"(27" passenger 26 3/4" drivers)..... It was 1/2"-5/8"(27 1/8" passenger 26 1/2" drivers) before I installed the end links.
My rear wheel center wheel well is now 28" on both sides.
When it stops raining I'll drive it around and check measurements on the most level ground I can find. As of now I'm happy things are looking better.
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Old Jan 31, 2013 | 07:25 PM
  #13  
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Re: uneven fender heights

I had my SFCs welded on while bolted to a race car jig.

Gotta be about the best way to ensure the chassis was STRAIGHT.

Although I'm sure you could tram the car and support it a little bit here and there to square it up, and it would be just as good.
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