Z28_1991_Camaro

So I just ordered a steering brace last week and I was planning on installing it on Saturday or Sunday.
I was just wondering if there is anything else I should replace with it?
I am hoping there will be some instructions with it because I'm not 100% sure how it installs just yet.
Due to the fact that I'm not aware of anything I may or may not have to remove during the installation process I'm left wondering this.
Just about everything under my car is stock. I would hate to jack the car up and goto install it only to find I should have replaced something else with it then have to order something, wait another week then jack the car up and go at it again.
I like doing things right the first time so any thoughts or suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

Sway bar bushings; since they're in the way anyway.

Sway bar end links; since you're gonna have new bushings, might as well get new end links as well.

I highly recommend Energy Suspension end links and GREASABLE bushings.

It is beyond eeeeeeezy to install all of this. It is almost SO eeeeeeezy that you can almost lay the parts on the ground and command them "Parts, Get on the car!!" and they almost will.

Flip 2

iTrader: (1)

Be warned, some aftermarket "Wonder Bars" will not fit if you have dual electric fans.

Edwardgp

Good point Flip.

Z28_1991_Camaro

The brace I bought is supposed to work with the dual electric fans.
What size bushings would I need to replace the stock ones?

Is this what you are suggesting:

http://www.hawksthirdgenparts.com/pr...uspension.html

http://www.hawksthirdgenparts.com/pr...uspension.html

I'm thinking I might as well change the rear while I'm under there, what size would these be?
http://www.hawksthirdgenparts.com/pr...-Complete.html

The rear set doesn't appear to be greasable, would that be a potential problem?

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

Same size as your stock ones. There are several sizes on these cars; best thing to do is to measure yours. An open-end wrench right next to the bushing works GREAT.

Same advice for the fronts and the rears. Measure the bar and get the bushings to fit. If you can't find the EXACT size bushings, get the next smaller size; but NO SMALLER THAN 1/16" or 1mm less than the measurement. Shouldn't be a problem coning up with that, they're available in all the appropriate sizes.

Those end links you posted will work fine; same ones work on both front and rear of these cars, usually.

Flip 2

iTrader: (1)

Well, say goodbye to marshmallow steering response.........

Z28_1991_Camaro

I took some measurements today, I plan on ordering the stuff in the morning.
I was just reading through some message boards and going through my Chilton Repair Manual to see what is involved with the end links and on the forum one person said to torque the end links when the suspension is loaded and level. In my manual there is no mention of this, is that really necessary or can I just torque them while the car is on the jack stands?
As for the sway bar, in my manual it says the following:

5. To install, position the stabilizer shaft into place and and install the insulators and brackets.
6. Hold the stabilizer shaft approximately 55mm from the bottom of the side rail and torque the bracket bolts to 37ft. lbs.
7. Install the bolt, nut, grommets, spacer and retainers.
8. Lower the car.

I'm not 100% sure what the side rail is, I'm hopeful once I'm under the car it's obvious what that is but just in case, how important is that 55mm distance?
Would it make sense(if it's even possible) to remove one bracket and bushing then install the new one before moving on to the second one?

The rear bushings that are being sold from that website do not appear to be greasable. Is that a cause for concern or would they be fine?

Also, does anyone know the torque specs for the rear sway bar brackets and end links? There is no mention of it in my manual, if there is I can't seem to find it.

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

Yes. You should. Until tight. Which for that size hardware, should be in the 20 - 25 ft-lbs kind of range. Exact # not particularly critical.

No. You don't determine their correct installation that way. Rather, you tighten them until the rubber (or whatever) deforms to the point that it's just slightly larger than the washers. Different materials and different Nyloc nuts will require CONSIDERABLY different amounts of torque to reach the correct point.

Not sure what "side rail" is all about.

I personally would prefer to find the greaseable bushings; that way I wouldn't have to disassemble them to lube them. Much eeeeeezier to just shoot em with a grease gun.

Again, not sure about "that website"; I just get Energy Suspension ones from AutoZone, Summit, local parts stores. etc. etc. etc., all of which seem to have them; and don't buy em unless they're the greaseable ones. Not too tough, really.

That "suspension loaded" crap surfaces about EVERYTHING. About 99% of the time, such as in this case, it DOESN'T APPLY. Don't worry about it.

Just take off the old parts and put on the new ones. You're over-thinking it. Don't outsmart yourself. Yes, it REALLY IS that simple.

myroc86

[quote=sofakingdom] Quote:

That "suspension loaded" crap surfaces about EVERYTHING. About 99% of the time, such as in this case, it DOESN'T APPLY. Don't worry about it.



Explain how it doesn't apply. Any suspension piece that moves/travels should be tightened at ride height. Especially pieces with poly bushings. That helps eliminate a lot of the squeaking





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Z28_1991_Camaro

I was just about to order the parts and I thought I would double check my measurements just to be sure.

My rear sway bar measures approx .835" or 21.2 mm

From what I've found with the greaseable brackets the closest size from "energy suspension" is 20.5 mm or I can get a 21 mm from "Prothane Motion Control" .
What would be the better choice?

My front sway bar is a little more difficult, I measured right next to the existing rubber bushing on the car and the sway bar is not round, it's more of an oval in that area. It measures approximately 1.435" one way and 1.175" the other way, that's about a 1/4" difference. If I move over to the center of the sway bar it measures approximately 1.35" and it's more or less round there.
So what size bushings should I order for the front?

I'm taking my measurements using a dial caliper so they are accurate #'s.
I apologize if I'm making this more complicated then necessary.
I just hate having to do stuff twice because it wasn't done right the first time.

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

It doesn't apply because:

It doesn't apply.

The only POSSIBLE things it can apply to, are RUBBER bushings, where the rubber is MOLDED TO the inner and outer shells of the bushings, such that instead of the parts ROTATING INSIDE one another, the rubber is forced to distort. In that case, it makes some degree of sense, to have to rubber in its "rest" position when at rest.

It specifically DOES NOT APPLY to poly parts, where the ploy bushings are free to turn within the shell, and the hinge in the center is free to turn inside the poly.

In NO CASE does it apply to sway bar parts, ALL OF WHICH are free AT ALL TIMES to move inside each other, regardless of material.

You might as well try to tell us that your closet door hinge screws can only be tightened when the door is in its "rest" position.

The laws of physics, let alone COMMON SENSE, do not cease to exist just because "car" is involved.

1991, sounds like you have the 34mm front bar, and 21mm rear bar. Best size for the front is 1-5/16". Best size for the rear is 15/16", which is 24mm, which will go with the bar that SHOULD be on your car. You have the wrong one. Sounds like somebody somewhere along the line put a 6-cyl or TBI one or some such garbage on there.

Scorpner

iTrader: (4)

The two largest front bars GM made for there were the 34mm and the 36mm, so there probably won't be any other bushings to chose from within that range of sizes. The 36mm is a lot harder to find and a lot less common.
The 34mm is pretty common for the later RS's (RPO F41) and IIRC have a blue bushing which is harder (Ie. more like poly) but I have noticed more galling on the bar from these bushings. If you have the blue ones they may actually still be in good shape.
I've also noticed that the earlier 34mm sway bars are more round than the later ones, and with the bushings being rubber have had less galling. Keep in mind that your sway bar is probably hollow as well.
FWIW, I have seen after-market bushings with zerk fitting which would allow you to grease them without having to disassemble them. I noticed that one of your links has the fittings while the other does not. I would wonder though if the inside of the bushings also have channels for the grease as well.

I hate doing stuff over again as well, but it's only six bolts and not that difficult when the end links are in good shape. Sometimes you can get decent end links at the local parts store for about the same price as posted (I prefer the poly end link bushings vs. the more common rubber ones). If they let you open the box at the store you can check them out before buying. So if your main bushings are still in relatively good shape and you don't care about the zerk fittings, then you could probably just run up to the parts store and grab some end links with poly bushings and call it a day.

Z28_1991_Camaro

Sofakingdom, if I get 24mm rear bushings wouldn't that be way too big since my sway bar is 21mm?
Is the fact that I have the wrong rear sway bar a problem? I don't race my car or drive it terribly fast 95% of the time. Although, I will need new tires next year so I'm hoping to have some fun with the old tires before I put the new ones on.
I wasn't really planning on spending too much on the car right now but if having the wrong sway bar on there is potentially problematic I feel now would be a good time to change it.
Scorpner, I live in Canada and the prices for automotive stuff here is typically at least double what it is in the U.S. and the selection is not nearly as good for most things so I do most of my shopping online if it's possible.
I have the black rubber bushings on my car and when I was measuring the sway bars, they did seem to be deteriorating a little.

I found a different site which seems to offer a better selection and cheaper prices for the same parts:

http://www.energysuspensionparts.com...r-Bushings.asp

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

Yes, your mismatched bar will not fit the correct bushings. If you want to keep that bar, you'll need 21mm ones.

If you ever watch NASCAR on TV, you'll hear them talking about "tight" and "loose" a lot... what that refers to is, which end of the car has less traction than the other, because of the weight on each wheel during turns. "Tight" means that the front end wants to slide while the rear wants to go straight (turn the wheel and nothing happens), "loose" means the front is planted but the rear wants to slide (usually will spin out). Factory setups are always "tight", the thought being, this is safer for inexperienced drivers in a panic situation; and they choose sway bar relationships accordingly. TOO MUCH rear sway bar would make a car "twitchy" feeling, and would be almost impossible to keep from swapping ends if you hit the brakes with the wheel turned. TOO LITTLE tends to make a car feel "numb" to the wheel, like you start turning the wheel and all that happens is the outside front tire starts making noise from sliding.

If you've ever driven a car that had no rear bar and put one on it, and felt the difference, you'll realize that "safe" isn't always "fast" or "fun". Not enough rear bar is of course not as bad as no rear bar at all; but you might find that the car "feels" AHELLUVALOT better driving, with the right size bar on it.

The same rear bars fit 3rd & 4th gen Camaro & Firebird, so they're not hard to find in a variety of sizes, including the correct factory match for the front bar you have.

Flip 2

iTrader: (1)

Aftermarket bars are pricy. Check yards and classifieds here on TGO. I got my current bars (1 1/4" hollow and Herb Adams '80s mongo bar) from folks here on TGO; 1 for $15- and shipping, the other for shipping. In turn I sent my old ones (1 1/8" & 15/16"") out for shipping.

John in RI

iTrader: (167)

It's 'better' to install end links if the suspension is loaded. For example; If the rear end is hanging when you attempt to install the end links the ends of the sway bar will be pointed up and will not be parallel to the end link mounting brackets. The links will get "snug" before they should because the parts are not sitting flush together and it's possible to tighten them a bit to little as a result - this is particularly true with POLY bushings because they are so hard compared to rubber they will not compress like rubber and the torque from turning the end link nut will try to "level" the sway bar as your tighening it. ( you'll see what I mean when you work on them ! ) It takes about 2 minutes to roll a jack under the pumpkin to re-load the rear suspension, worth the effort IMO.

You can use any sized front/rear sway bars - it will not cause any "problems",...... it will however effect the handling characteristics of your car. If you intend to "upgrade" I'd advise the largest rear sway bar you can find.



All Thirdgens "understeer", It's just the way they were designed. Go into a turn too fast and the front will PUSH,....... every time.

"Camaro & Firebird Performance handbook" says:

** Adding POLY bushing end links basically adds a mm or 2 to whatever sway bar is used due to their limited deflection compared to stock rubber.

Stay away from 4th gen sway bars ! Fronts don't work in a thirdgen and 4th gen rear bars are WAY too small for a thirdgen. ( The stock rear sway on my 95Z was 19mm. )

myroc86

Glad someone is on the same wavelength with me, John. I don't get on here for a long enough time to explain **** to ignorant people. Not saying my way is the ONLY way to do it, just saying I've had better results doing it that way, "Laws of Physics" aside.


I get what you are trying to say about your NASCAR analogy but that is a WHOLE different game. Sway bars aren't the only thing that can effect handling in them. Part of that is driving style. Tight for someone may not be tight for someone else, same thing with a loose condition.

Back to the OP... If you just plan on driving on the street, go to shows/cruise ins, but want to improve handling a bit just stick to your current bars and just replace the bushings. Keep an eye out on craigslist, ebay, junkyards, for somthing different. Poke around forums and gather some information then make your own decision on what you want to go with. If money is tight, grab some new bushings, put em on and enjoy your ride.

Just like John said you don't have the WRONG bar, just will effect handling differently then the "right" bar lol. Nothing to freak out about. The only time you would really feel it is if you were autox or racing.




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Z28_1991_Camaro

Thanks for all of the help fellas, I'll look into another sway bar if I can find a reasonably priced one.

Just a question though, if I was to put my car under load to change the end links what is the best way to do that?
I assume I would jack up each wheel but how would I determine when I have enough or too much load?

Scorpner

iTrader: (4)

I hate to jump into this but I agree that our cars are set up to understeer, however every set I've grabbed from a Thirdgen have been 34mm/21mm (I just went out and checked a couple of sets). One of these was from a TBI and another from a TPI (both 1991, RPO F41). I have yet to come across a 24mm, and only one 36mm. I only grab matched sets when available and keep the bars together.

From what I understand, GM designed the suspension this way to reduce damage/injury in accidents in that the front end is meant to slide out vs. the back out coming around instead. Yes, it's ok to swap bars around if and only if you understand how the changes are going to affect how your car handles. For example, say you're used to how GM sets up most cars, however someone decides to change that. Then you become involved in a situation where you have to make a quick maneuver and the car acts unexpectedly. That's the point of sticking with what GM designed. If you change the ratio and test it and learn how it's going to react then you're not as likely to run into something unexpectedly and have the back end come around on you. IMO, there are other factors that affect this including torque output, rim size, tires etc., and you don't have to be pushing the car on dry pavement either Ie. rain/ice/snow etc. That said, if you do change the ratio so it isn't as likely to plow in and also know how to drive it you are probably more likely to save it than if you had left it stock.

As far as books go I prefer “How to tune and modify your Camaro 1982-1998”/Jason Scott. I recommend Z28_1991_Camaro purchase this and the other book mentioned and decide for himself which is best for him. It was one of those two that got me started in collecting sway bars in the first place. Other more in depth books include “How to make your Car handle”/Puhn and “Chassis Engineering”/Adams. Read the books, learn how your car actually handles under safe conditions and make up your own mind.

One other thing to keep in mind is there are other bushing in the suspension that may also need replacing. I wouldn't necessarily recommend polys for the (front) lower A-Arms unless you understand the benefits as well as the drawbacks. That goes for lower (rear) LCA's, panhard bars and on and on... Many of the popular swaps do not take into account the way GM designed the components to move and sometimes can induce unwanted binding and harshness in the suspension. This would include LCA's with polys on both ends. GM designed theirs to flex, and they are also one piece. They did increase stiffness by changing inserts and also adding reinforcements, but they still included flex.

Edit: Make sure to check Summit and Jegs for prices on what you're looking at. Check your local junkyards for sway bars and buy them in sets (IMO).

John in RI

iTrader: (167)

Z28_1991_Camaro;

The easiest way to access the end links is to remove the tire. If your current end links are original than there's a good chance that you will snap them off while trying to remove them. If they don't snap - you might need to cut them off. ( be prepared ! )

I normally temp install each side then I'll lower the car on it's tires and crawl under it for final torque on each side. ( If you torque one side all the way down it might be difficult to get the end-link on the opposite side started. ) Once each end link is snug just give it a 1/4 - 1/2 turn or so and you're good-to-go !

You can't really"over-load" the suspension. If you raise the rear end and then raise the pumpkin to load the rear suspension just watch your jackstands; as soon as the body begins to move up off the stands drop the jack under the pumpkin just a 'hair' and lock it in place so you can finish the installing the links. Loading the front is a bit trickier because you've (probably)got to do 1 side at a time and must leave room to access the lower end link bolt on the control arm before jacking it up. ( Thankfully; I'm thin enough to get under most ThirdGens and don't usually need to jack up anything !)






You make a lot of good points !!!

When checking for rear sway bars the 85 Z28's usually got a 23mm, IROCs got a 24mm and the only thirdGen to ever get a 25mm was the 85 Trans Am. When it comes to the front; 85+ IROC's should have a 34mm Hollow, The 85TA got a 34mm solid bar, and I *think* the 88 + "top shelf" cars started getting the 36mm holllow. (My 88 GTA had a stock 36mm.)

Scorpner

iTrader: (4)

That could be, I don't see whole lot of Z28's or IROCs that aren't stripped by the time they hit the lot. lol
I thought that there was list of sway bars on here but I couldn't find it. Either way, from my experience, they did appear to come from the factory with the 34/21 combo, maybe someone swapped a set from an RS when they sold it? Or there could be possible variances in manufacturing locations? I can't see any other way for him to end up with what he has on a Z28 then.

Z28_1991_Camaro

I replaced my springs 2 or 3 years ago and they cut the end links off and put new ones on when they did that so they still appear to be in decent shape so I'm optimistic they will come off without much trouble.
When you say "pumpkin" what are you referring to?
Where are you suggesting I put my jack stands? I normally put them under the control arms where they attach to the frame.

http://www.top-downsolutions.com/cha...-rear-sway-bar

Does this seem like a decent rear sway bar?

John, if you were thin enough to fit under my car without it being jacked up I don't think you would be alive. I can barely fit my arm under there.

myroc86

The "pumkin" is the center of your rear end housing. Jack it from there and place your jack stands as far apart as you can under your axle tubes. As for the front n I just jack it up from the k-frame and place a stand under the a-arms


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Flip 2

iTrader: (1)

Looks pretty good from here. Looks like a real decent price.

-AO-

The TDS is by far the best wonderbar for 3rd gens. I would not even consider any of the other poorly designed ones.

This is the good one.
http://www.hawksthirdgenparts.com/pr...52dBodies.html

bad03chief

Hey guys,

Question. I bought the wonderbar about a year ago and am just getting around to trying to put it on. It doesn't fit! The bar hits the dual electric fan mounts and won't line up to the holes in the subframe. Has anyone here ever had this problem? It's been too long and I don't think I can return it ;(

Thanks,

Rick

Flip 2

iTrader: (1)

UMI, for one, makes one that fits. Had the same thing, when I went to dual fans.

Ron U.S.M.C.

UMI products is the way I will go.
Heres there Steering Brace with installation = https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/afte...r-bar-1-a.html