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I've read a million threads about this on this forum and i still don't know what do buy???
I am looking for a quick ratio steering box for IROC-Z or WS6...That means 16" rims with 2,25(2 1/4) turn ratio.
I would prefer to buy a new or rebuild one but anywhere you look there is different data about a certain box... And nobody knows what they are selling...I don't want to spend money on a normal box.
I was looking at Lares 1282 at rockauto...Is that what i need or?
Re: Another IROC-Z quick ratio steering box thread
I hate to tell you this but the only good answer is to find a good factory box with an HX marker label on the end cover or to rebuild an HX box. As far as I can tell there is not part number/manufacturer that actually checks the ratio, they just drop new o-rings in whatever they get as a core and call it the PN that it's supposed to be. I went probably a dozen or more from all sorts of different sources finding random things in the boxes no matter what they were listed as being. I only found one that was the correct ratio with the wrong stops and another with the correct stops and the wrong ratio, almost none of them had the center preload set right and some had gears that were so worn out you could hardly call it a rebuild.
It got to the point that a few guys at the local car parts places would just order in a few of every part number that looked like it might work and would just let me test them in the back of the store just to see what was actually in the box. I even found a few that were from 60's fullsize cars and different brands in the boxes, I suspect that it was someone with a musclecar era car wanted a newer close ratio box, bought the part and returned their old crap as a core...
If you look around online you'll find videos of even the high end rebuilders (AGR...) being the same, just looking prettier.
Re: Another IROC-Z quick ratio steering box thread
Thank you for a great answer.
I ve already seen your video on youtube and yes it made me sad about this...Its a shame you don't know what you're buying.
Atm i think i have quick ratio box that has 2,5 turns or for an iroc with 15 inch rims... I run 16 inch rims and when i am at full lock rims rub.
But the main problem is the slop in the center that makes the car wander a little...i would prefer to get the right box for my setup before doing rebuild on current one.
Is there any place that sells used boxes...How is the third gen ranch? They have them very cheap only 45 usd.
Re: Another IROC-Z quick ratio steering box thread
I really don't get the issues people have with the 15" wheel box... If it's a quick ratio box it's a quick ratio box... just don't turn the wheel all the way to the locks. Heck, a 16" wheel box will rub with some stock sized tires and just about anything bigger anyway, getting a 16" one over a 15" one doesn't buy you anything with most wheel and tire combos (my Z06 wheels with 265/40-17's rub with my 16" HX box, but I never turn it all the way anyway).
The only thing that I can think of is that there are supposedly quick ratio boxes that are not high effort (I haven't seen one, I don't know what the 15" boxes are, I used to have a quick ratio, 15" tire car, but that was before I did all this digging into them so I don't know if that was a high effort box or not). I could see some people caring about that but since most people are running wider front tires and/or aftermarket (smaller) steering wheels, honestly I would think a non-high effort (HX box) would be desirable.
Assuming they're not worn out completely the slop can be taken out by adjusting the sector adjustment on the top but that's not the right way (that can cause the steering to bind and lock up eventually), the right way is to take it out of the car, adjust the preload on the front of the box and then the sector adjustment. Really these things are not _that_ hard to rebuild, just fussy, and rebuild kits are relatively cheap. After rebuilding the on in my WS6 TA I will likely never buy a rebuild again. I have a second HX box in my formula 350 (parts car) but that's not coming out until I part the rest out since that will make it next to impossible to move.
I'm actually wondering if for my intended goals for the TA if I wouldn't be better off with a base model box, but at this point I have enough other projects to worry about to pull that thing again...
Since 99% of people that think they know about these things don't seem to actually know about them, i'd be shocked if someplace like 3rd gen ranch would get it right (it would be random what you'd get from them). Heck AGR and a few of the other performance builders out there either don't know about the ratios or can't get the parts and are misrepresenting lesser ratios as "12:1" (really 12.7:1) boxes. At this point I feel with rare exceptions you either figure out what you're doing yourself or you're hosed... and these things are getting rare in the jy
Last edited by 83 Crossfire TA; 07-13-2016 at 05:32 PM.
Re: Another IROC-Z quick ratio steering box thread
Mark summed it up.
If you have a good box, rebuild it or have it built.
I live close enough to Benchworks in Scottsdale there's no reason for me to fiddle with parts store core swapping. I have the 15" fast ratio box; when it needs built, I drop it off and know what I'm getting back.
Re: Another IROC-Z quick ratio steering box thread
I part out third gens and have a few boxes out here. My price is $50 and I normally leave the pitman arm and sometimes the steering shaft on them for that price.
I just sold an '87 GTA box, but as far as other I have out here are...
'92 z28, 305 tpi, 5 speed, posi drum brake rear
'86 TA, 305/auto, borg warner 9 bolt rear
'89 formula
'87 formula
Then of course the std base cars and what not.
If there is any markings or numbers you want me to look for, just let me know. Or if you are local enough to Bowdon, GA 30108 you are more than welcome to come out and see what all I have.
Re: Another IROC-Z quick ratio steering box thread
Originally Posted by klein
I was looking at Lares 1282 at rockauto...Is that what i need or?
I'm looking at this one too to replace the loose stock gear on my car.
I already got the ACDelco 36G0104 ("w/o Soft Ride Suspension (FE1)", i.e. 2.5 turns), but it was dead on arrival - the top lid has a crack that leaks PS fluid. FWIW, the ACDelco box said it's remanufactured in Mexico, while the Lares ones are supposedly done in the US. There's no telling whether that crack happened during transit or earlier, though.
What I'm confused about is the note "Works w/ Lares Steering Coupling Assembly 205" in RockAuto's catalogue though. Does this imply that the Lares gears have a non-standard input shaft and need this coupler to fit our cars? The coupler's description in the catalogue ("LARES 205 Power Gear; For 3/4" 26 spline input shafts with 2-3/4" OD coupler") isn't much more helpful either, since measurements for the other components aren't available.
By the picture, it looks like the Lares 205 (rockauto.com) would replace the existing steering shaft rag joint, which would actually be nice, since the original is 25+ years old by now, and other rag joints aren't available either...
Here are photos and a clip of the leaking "new" steering gear, BTW
PS. It's pretty annoying that you apparently can't trust the remanufacturers, but being one (1) Atlantic Ocean away from most reasonable scrap yards, I personally don't have a lot of options.
Re: Another IROC-Z quick ratio steering box thread
So,
After a couple of failed tries, I got ahold of someone at larescorp.com via their chat. No luck with "Steering Steve" even having measurements for their products though (transcript at the end.) I'll try to check the measurements and spline count on my original stock gear tomorrow.
Shopping around for alternatives, you can currently pay between $106 (A-1 Cardone) and $331 (Borgeson) for what should be the same Saginaw 700 quick ratio gear remanufactured by (hopefully) different companies. Does anyone have experience with the Borgeson gears; does the extra $100-$200 give you better remanufacturing quality?
The cheapest options are most likely found in RockAuto's catalogue:
A-1 CARDONE 276550 {#7839897, 7843135, 7843512} Reman. Power
without Soft Ride Suspension ((FE1))
Item $81.79 + core $25.00 = $106.79
ATSCO 6561 Remanufactured Info
Front; Power steering; Sport Steering, 2.5 Turns (Only 4 Remaining)
Item $99.79 + core $25.00 = $124.79
ACDELCO 36G0104 {#19321359} Professional; Remanufactured; Power Gear
w/o Soft Ride Suspension (FE1)
Item $111.89 + core $55.00 = $166.89
It seems that Hawk's sells the same Lares #1282 (quick) and #1353 (3.5 turn) gears and #205 coupler as RockAuto, although they don't name the manufacturer. Note the coinciding part numbers and significantly higher markup on the 1282.
Jegs lists Borgeson and Flaming River branded gears from $331 to $647 (based on fitment for a '91 bird, YMMV), results at http://www.jegs.com/webapp/wcs/store...ear=4294829835. Summitracing.com also carries some Borgeson gears for the same prices as Jegs, but their database doesn't include fitment for our cars (or for anything), so you have to look them up separately. Listing below is from Jegs.
Flaming River FR1560
Power Steering Box GM/Dodge/Jeep
12:1 Ratio
$647.19 FREE Shipping
Borgeson 800205
Saginaw 700 Power Steering Box
Remanufactured
3/4''-30 Spline
Variable Ratio
$331.55 FREE Shipping
Borgeson 800220
Saginaw 700 Power Steering Box
Remanufactured
3/4''-30 Spline
12.7:1 Ratio
$331.55 FREE Shipping
Borgeson 800221
Saginaw 700 Power Steering Box
Remanufactured
3/4''-30 Spline
14:1 Ratio
$331.55 FREE Shipping
Borgeson 800208
Saginaw 600 Power Steering Box
New
3/4''-30 Spline
14:1 Ratio
View Details
$582.22 FREE Shipping
Finally, my fruitful discussion with Lares:
Chat started Peter
yo, are you there?
Steering Steve joined the chat Steering Steve
WHAT CAN I DO FOOR YOU
Peter
I'd like to know what the difference is between the 1282 and 1354 steering gears
Steering Steve
be right back
the 1282 has a 10 to 1 ratio 2.5 turns lock to lock.. the 1354 is built for a race car application you would not want it on a driving car for the road
Peter
ok, great
is the 1282 a drop-in replacement in a 1991 pontiac firebird? RockAuto's catalogue says that they "work with" your coupling no. 205
but it's not clear whether they require it, i.e. is the input shaft on the 1282 different from stock
Also if you happen to have exact measurements and/or drawings of the gear's input shaft and the coupler, that would be great
Steering Steve
it is bolt in and will fit and work for you
i do not have drawings and measurements
Peter
ok, I guess I'll have to take your word for it. thanks
Re: Another IROC-Z quick ratio steering box thread
Ordered the Lares 1282 today, also the coupler/rag joint. I'll have it in in 1-2 weeks.
The stock gear's input shaft is 18.5 or 19.5 mm in diameter (0,7283" or 0,7677"), I actually was dumb enough to forget which. There are 26 splines and a flattened edge on the shaft; the 26 includes the edges of the flattened area.
Input shaft on power steering gear from a 1991 Firebird (RPO code FE1), stamp on gear: 26000525 I 28 16 Z
Re: Another IROC-Z quick ratio steering box thread
Take your box package it up send it to these guys..They completely rebuild it go through it make it better than it was before close ratio steering and add the Billet caps front and top.. they do this for less than $230 shipped
Interestingly enough, tracking says my 1282 box + rag joint shipped from CAMBRIDGE, MN 55008, which is where Lares is also located - so maybe they ship directly from the plant despite RockAuto handling the order.
I'm starting to feel like their salesman; that gear better be worth it...
If I was in the US I'd probably use AGR's service too, it seems like pretty good value for money.
Re: Another IROC-Z quick ratio steering box thread
Well what do you know, someone from Lares actually sent a coherent reply to my email - after about a week, but still, nice job. Here's the message, for the benefit of future generations:
The difference between the “Race Car” 1354 and the “Fast Ratio” 1282 is the amount of turns lock to lock. The Race Car gear is 3.25 turns. It’s set at a dedicated ratio for people using on a race car with a separate 1:1 steering quickener. The 1282 is the fast ratio design at 2.5 turns lock to lock. The input on either gear will be the same as your stock unit. You would not need the 205 coupler to install these parts. Everything will bolt in as your original gear did.
Re: Another IROC-Z quick ratio steering box thread
I got mine on Friday. At least it's well packaged, exterior finish seems decent and it looks like it survived the journey. The input shaft splines are slightly worn but the output shaft looks spotless.
I didn't have a proper tool to measure the radius, but eyeballing by the pictures, it's about 2.5 turns + 45 degrees, i.e. 2.65 turns lock-to-lock. With another high-tech measurement involving packaging tape, the output shaft seems to move about ([90 / pi] * [arc 33mm / diam. 55 mm) = 17.18 degrees as you rotate the input shaft lock-to-lock.
It's hard to get a grip on the output shaft without a pitman arm installed, but at least I didn't feel any loose play in the gear while testing this.
Hopefully I'll get my mechanic to install it this week -- if it was winter I'd do it myself, but right now I don't have the time if I want to get some driving done this summer...
Also, I asked Lares whether it's necessary to adjust the gear -- it's supposed to be pre-adjusted at the factory, so there shouldn't be need for that.
Re: Another IROC-Z quick ratio steering box thread
Check out Turn One if any of you guys want race spec boxes. If you go on the website, you can see all the NASCAR customers. They're a bit expensive ($750-$2500) but I'm installing one of their Performance Plus model steering boxes (12:1 with 235 T-Bar) in my '79 T/A. Sometimes, these can be found as serviced units for much cheaper on ebay or other places.
Re: Another IROC-Z quick ratio steering box thread
Originally Posted by F-Body Int
Check out Turn One if any of you guys want race spec boxes. If you go on the website, you can see all the NASCAR customers. They're a bit expensive ($750-$2500) but I'm installing one of their Performance Plus model steering boxes (12:1 with 235 T-Bar) in my '79 T/A. Sometimes, these can be found as serviced units for much cheaper on ebay or other places.
Re: Another IROC-Z quick ratio steering box thread
FWIW, I had the gear installed yesterday and made a short 5-6 km trip -- worked as it should. Maneuvering is obviously much easier with the 2.5 ratio. Steering effort also reduced considerably - this was true for the messed up ACDelco gear too - the old gear must have been pretty worn out.
The car still needs a wheel alignment before I can give it a proper test drive, and the alignment is pending a new round of tires... hopefully soon.
Re: Another IROC-Z quick ratio steering box thread
I finally got new tires under the car and had the alignment done.
The car feels completely different! Compared to the landbarge it was before, the car is now very agile and precise, almost comparable to a 1990s BMW (E34 / E39, maybe E32). I think the biggest single contributor is the faster steering ratio, but I put in new bushings, balljoints, tires and alignment too, so they must have some effect too. Especially for urban driving, this is a big improvement.
However, on the highway it now tends to "hunt" or "dodge" left and right a lot more, and you have to pay constant attention and keep making small corrections, lest you find yourself on the neighboring lane. There's no bias to left nor right as far as I can tell, it's just lacking stability. I'll try to readjust the alignment at some point to fix this.
The tires are Uniroyal RainExpert3, 225/60R15 on the original 15" by 7" rims, front and back. (I would have wanted 245/60R15 in the back, but couldn't find any... now I actually have a chance to buy a pair of BF Goodrich 245/60R15s but haven't decided yet.) For the front, I think 225/60R15 is the correct (or at least the biggest sensible) size, with 235/60R15s it used to snake around on parking lots like crazy.
I had the shop use the specs that Sofakingdom has been advertising on this forum, namely:
Code:
- Caster: L +4.00 degrees, R +4.50 degrees
- Camber: L -0.50 degrees, R -1.0 degrees
- Toe: 0.030" - 0.050" (0.076mm - 0.127mm)
The shop's equipment only measures toe in angles, not length. The rep was able to translate the ~ 0.1 mm toe into 0.01 degrees.
The end result, according to the shop's report, is:
Code:
FRONT:
- Caster: L +4.1 degrees, R +3.9 degrees
- Camber: L -0.5 degrees, R -1.0 degrees
- Toe: L +0.02 degrees, R +0.01 degrees, total 0.02 degrees,
- Steering direction: 0.01 degrees (?)
REAR:
- Camber: L -0.2 degrees, R -0.3 degrees
- Toe: L -0.02 degrees, R +0.02 degrees, total 0.00 degrees
- Angle of traversal: -0.02 degrees
The shop guys suggested the front strut mounts don't allow enough adjustment to set caster to 4.0 / 4.5 -- so that's another item on the todo list, once I get around to replacing the struts (and fixing the inevitable rust damage under the mounts...)
It seems the rear axle isn't completely straight either.
Re: Another IROC-Z quick ratio steering box thread
Originally Posted by pfp
FWIW, I had the gear installed yesterday and made a short 5-6 km trip -- worked as it should. Maneuvering is obviously much easier with the 2.5 ratio. Steering effort also reduced considerably - this was true for the messed up ACDelco gear too - the old gear must have been pretty worn out.
So the Lares box did NOT give you the increased steering effort as well? I'm considering the Lares box also, but quick ratio AND increased steering effort are the two things I'm looking for.
After almost a year, how has the Lares box held up? Any slop creeping in?
Re: Another IROC-Z quick ratio steering box thread
Originally Posted by lavamadness
So the Lares box did NOT give you the increased steering effort as well? I'm considering the Lares box also, but quick ratio AND increased steering effort are the two things I'm looking for.
After almost a year, how has the Lares box held up? Any slop creeping in?
I have the same Lares box. First one was bad out of the box, locking up, etc. Second one seems fine.
Steering is "tight" but not too much effort. It's more effort than any other car I've driven so it's probably what you're looking for. When I get in my daughters Camry the steering wheel moves with a sneeze.
Re: Another IROC-Z quick ratio steering box thread
Originally Posted by lavamadness
So the Lares box did NOT give you the increased steering effort as well?
No. The original GM/ACDelco box was harder to turn. The refurbished GM/ACDelco and Lares boxes had similar steering effort, which doesn't seem any different to other 1990s cars that I've driven. TBH, I don't tend to pay a lot of attention to the whole matter, though.
After almost a year, how has the Lares box held up? Any slop creeping in?
Unfortunately the driving season in Finland only lasts from Apr/May to around September, and I didn't get a lot of driving done last summer. Hopefully I'll get to remove the mothballs next month.
Re: Another IROC-Z quick ratio steering box thread
Originally Posted by pfp
I finally got new tires under the car and had the alignment done.
...
However, on the highway it now tends to "hunt" or "dodge" left and right a lot more, and you have to pay constant attention and keep making small corrections, lest you find yourself on the neighboring lane. There's no bias to left nor right as far as I can tell, it's just lacking stability. I'll try to readjust the alignment at some point to fix this.
The tires are Uniroyal RainExpert3, 225/60R15 on the original 15" by 7" rims, front and back. (I would have wanted 245/60R15 in the back, but couldn't find any... now I actually have a chance to buy a pair of BF Goodrich 245/60R15s but haven't decided yet.) For the front, I think 225/60R15 is the correct (or at least the biggest sensible) size, with 235/60R15s it used to snake around on parking lots like crazy.
What year is your car? The early cars with 15x7's came with 215/65-15's on them, and the later ones came with 235/60-15's on all 4, they fit fine an work fine. My favorite tire combination on them for street and decent handling is 235/60 on the front and 255/60 on the back (again, everything fits fine and clears everything) and I feel they look and work a little better with 1/4" spacers on the front.
For more of a straight line car 275/60's will fit on the back on the 15x7s (and before anyone says they're too wide, as the profile/sidewall gets taller you can put a wider tire on the same rim), but with some of the larger drag radials you'll have to do a little hammering in the front of the rear wheel well to keep them from rubbing the inside sidewall.
I had the shop use the specs that Sofakingdom has been advertising on this forum, namely:
Code:
- Caster: L +4.00 degrees, R +4.50 degrees
- Camber: L -0.50 degrees, R -1.0 degrees
- Toe: 0.030" - 0.050" (0.076mm - 0.127mm)
The shop's equipment only measures toe in angles, not length. The rep was able to translate the ~ 0.1 mm toe into 0.01 degrees.
The end result, according to the shop's report, is:
Code:
FRONT:
- Caster: L +4.1 degrees, R +3.9 degrees
- Camber: L -0.5 degrees, R -1.0 degrees
- Toe: L +0.02 degrees, R +0.01 degrees, total 0.02 degrees,
- Steering direction: 0.01 degrees (?)
REAR:
- Camber: L -0.2 degrees, R -0.3 degrees
- Toe: L -0.02 degrees, R +0.02 degrees, total 0.00 degrees
- Angle of traversal: -0.02 degrees
The shop guys suggested the front strut mounts don't allow enough adjustment to set caster to 4.0 / 4.5 -- so that's another item on the todo list, once I get around to replacing the struts (and fixing the inevitable rust damage under the mounts...)
It seems the rear axle isn't completely straight either.
Those look a lot like the old early '90's Global West specs that I've posted around here a few times.
Again, I don't know what year your car is but the earlier ones have less caster adjustment available then the later ones. Caster is typically the biggest factor in on road stability, and sometimes you can get a little more caster by setting the camber closer to 0 on these cars and unless you're autoxing them it's usually worth it.
You can get more adjustment out of them by slotting the bolt holes in the top of the strut tower and then ditching the stock strut shields (if it bothers you then just install some offroad shock bellows style ones on them, I've run them without and not had issues, most newer cars do also)
Next WRT stability is to put a little more toe in and making sure it's the same side to side, there really is NO reason not to get it the same, it's a very easy adjustment to move very precisely.
Finally, if the on center preload wasn't done right in the box rebuild or if the pump pressure is too high it could cause it to get darty.
I typically modify the strut towers so I can get between 5 and 6* caster, even side to side with me sitting in it or .5 more on the R if I can't get the shop to set it with me in it, -.7 to -1 camber (in that range seems to be the best compromise between grip and good tire wear for aggressive street driving) and I typically set the toe to pretty close to 0 with a tight suspension and deal with a little bit of dartyness in exchange for faster response in a slalom type situation (as the steering parts get more worn I tend to start giving it a little toe in to compensate). If it was just a street car and nice driving manners are the most important thing I;d probably shoot for about 1/16" to 3/32" toe in (some quick trig using 26" as the average front tire diameter to convert that to an angle if you need it should be easy enough)
Originally Posted by lavamadness
Thx for the input ththanner. Sounds like the Lares box maybe hit and miss like other remans. :/
I wish I saw this sooner... I looked at 2 lares boxes when I was looking and measuring them. They looked like whoever rebuilt them cared more (they weren't as beat up and they weren't covered in the thick black paint, but a nicer looking gray), but the 2 I saw were the same PN (not sure if it was the same one as what you listed but most likely) and they were both different ratios, one was a 15:1 and one was one of the odd middle ratios and both had 90* stops (instead of the 62* that f-bodies use, but see my previous comments about 15" wheel stops vs 16" wheel stops, you may not care what stops they have). If I remember right one of them had the center preload off about 5-10* to one side.
I don't get how consistently bad box rebuilds are and why they get away with it. I've already said I wouldn't buy another rebuild. I would rebuild my own unless the box that I had was damaged, and if it was I would go junkyard hunting for an original one that hasn't been rebuilt by these monkeys and rebuild it myself... or I'd consider trying to make a 600 series aftermarket box work.
As far as the pretty AGR rebuild, I'd check the ratio on that... there's a few videos posted out there of pretty 12:1 AGR boxes actually being 15:1 boxes and they gave some pretty BS answers when they were called on it.
Last edited by 83 Crossfire TA; 03-24-2017 at 07:58 AM.
Re: Another IROC-Z quick ratio steering box thread
Originally Posted by 83 Crossfire TA
What year is your car? The early cars with 15x7's came with 215/65-15's on them, and the later ones came with 235/60-15's on all 4, they fit fine an work fine. My favorite tire combination on them for street and decent handling is 235/60 on the front and 255/60 on the back (again, everything fits fine and clears everything) and I feel they look and work a little better with 1/4" spacers on the front.
The car is 1991 year model according to the VIN, 1st registration in late 1990 so apparently it was manufactured that year. In the registration docs, the model designation is "FIREBIRD SPORT COUPE-FS2-E/257" and the "official" tire size P215/65R15.
I saw some 255/60s available last fall but wasn't sure they'd work or look good, even if they'd fit. Maybe I'll try those out next.
I typically modify the strut towers so I can get between 5 and 6* caster, even side to side with me sitting in it or .5 more on the R if I can't get the shop to set it with me in it, -.7 to -1 camber (in that range seems to be the best compromise between grip and good tire wear for aggressive street driving) and I typically set the toe to pretty close to 0 with a tight suspension and deal with a little bit of dartyness in exchange for faster response in a slalom type situation (as the steering parts get more worn I tend to start giving it a little toe in to compensate). If it was just a street car and nice driving manners are the most important thing I;d probably shoot for about 1/16" to 3/32" toe in (some quick trig using 26" as the average front tire diameter to convert that to an angle if you need it should be easy enough)
It's definitely a street car - most of the driving I do is commutes, casual cruising and so on, although I tend to drive aggressively - so basically I want to have my cake and eat it too, i.e. stability on highways but with proper handling.
Hopefully I'll get the potential rust spots in the strut towers checked & fixed this spring. After that I can install the pair of KYB 735001 struts that I got last year and do those modifications & adjustments as well.
Re: Another IROC-Z quick ratio steering box thread
when I picked up a used AGR steering box..I wanted to get it plated so I took it apart. and found AGR installed bearings that are not on/in the Stock GM boxes.. I did have it plated then sent it back to AGR to have them put it back together. as none of the GM steerig box kits have any of the parts/Bearing ARG put in there boxes..FYI.. AGR adds bearing to the top and bottom of the pitmen shaft.not just the bottom. was the first thing I found..and the parts inside look better then the GM parts..fit and finish..but they do use a stock looking case..(on the out side anyway).. kicking my self now for not just getting it chrome plated instead of the gold zink..
Last edited by articwhiteZ; 04-14-2019 at 01:37 PM.
07-12-2016, 06:33 AM
When will you get your 1282?
