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I have this problem I have been chasing for a while. It is hard to keep it in a straight line. If I move the steering wheel quickly back and forth it almost acts like it wants to swerve out of control. Normal driving and it feels like it wants to wander and somewhat like the rear end wants to sway. Ok, now for the parts.
All suspension parts (and I mean all, literally everything under the car) are new and stock except poly bushings in the rear. Gear box was rebuilt by Redhead Steering Gears who says their is 0 play. I can get a very little rotation of the steering shaft with it running and wheels on the ground. I put in the Astro Van steering conversion and took out the rag joint even though it was brand new. Had the car up on a hoist last weekend and everything in the front and rear suspension is rock sold. No give anywhere in the suspension parts. Rear end has 40k miles on a new posi.
I did find a little play in the front wheel bearings so pre-loaded them very slightly to see if that would help. Maybe helped a little. The rear axles have a little play in and out, enough to be easily noticeable.
Would a very little play (+/- 3 degrees or so) in the steering gear box cause that much noticeable swerve? Would the play in the axles cause the swerve feeling? Are there more than one thickness of axle C retainer washers so that maybe I have the wrong ones causing play resulting in squirreliness? Would alignment cause this (although the shop about 15K miles ago said it was aligned and dialed right in).
Alignment specs have a tolerance, a range... At the limits you can get darting, hunting, etc. So yeah, a bad alignment can be annoying. But before you have it aligned again, put the car on stands and get in there. I mean take a nice heavy prybar and check all the joints for excess play. Bushings, ball joints, steering linkage, you name it. Check the crossmember to frame bolts are tight. Inspect the rear control arms, track bar, braces, etc. Check the torque arm mount, and the transmission mount. I'd bet good money you've just missed a worn, broken, or loose part. All else fails, get it aligned again.
Not quite sure I understand your problem. I'm hearing 2 different problems here. The first being the car has lousy straight line tracking, and the second sounding like something is potentially loose causing quick steering inputs to make the car feel unpredictable. Which one is it, or is it actually both combined? Straight line tracking issues are caused by bump steer and/or a bad alignment job. Unless the car is lowered from original ride height, you should not be experiencing bump steer.
As for the second issue, I'm not sure where to really begin. All I can say is to make sure the frame area around where the gear box mounts is not cracked at all, and make sure everything is 100% tight. An out of control steering feel basically comes down to something being loose in the suspension, and theres a lot of things to check going on there. I'd even double check control arm bolts, strut to spindle mounting bolts, strut mounts, etc. I've seen those strut to spindle bolts get cranked down before but it wasn't quite enough to lock the strut to the spindle flange, so it caused the car to have unpredictable steering. Those two bolts really do need to be extremely tight. I normally crank them on with an impact gun on the highest setting, and then even but a breaker bar on them to see if they'll snug up a bit more after.
Thanks for the ideas. Been out of town for a while so just getting back to this. It seems to be both but the bad tracking may be just an indicator of it wanting to sway. Before I posted, I had put it up on a car hoist and couldn't find anything loose underneath. I will recheck the strut to spindle bolts though. Again, the only thing I could find was the end play in the rear axles but not sure if that is enough to cause it. I have hesitated doing any adjusting on the steering gear box as it was completely rebuilt and supposedly had no play. Had that done by Redhead Gears. Going to go at it again this weekend. Wondering if I should change out the axle C clips.
Thanks for your help... Finally got it mostly resolved.. Since I couldn't find anything loose at all anywhere in the suspension, I gave up and took it to a shop.. They said it was the over center adjustment in the steering gear box.. It was way too tight.. The loosened it quite a bit.. It drives about 300% better but may still be just a little tight.. Waiting until I pull my Blizzak snow tires off first to make sure I am not feeling any squirrel with those...
I know it's an old thread but it is my old thread and I am still fighting the steering problem on my 92. I have done everything possible to the front suspension without luck. The steering issue has improved significantly but I still have it hard to keep straight with some darting. Right now, I have the car up on blocks to install Alston Inner Subframe Connectors (this in anticipation of some floor replacement this summer). I have begun to suspect the rear end suspension could be the continued cause of the steering issues. I have been looking at the panhard bar and trailing arms but everything seems solid. Back in the summer of 2013, I installed the present stamped panhard bar (new at the time) with urethane bushings as well as replaced the trailing arm and rear sway bar bushings with urethane. I also installed new springs and shocks at the same time. I have only put about 50,000 miles on it since then (very short work commutes). So, could the urethane bushings be bad causing the steering issue? How long do urethane bushings last? Measuring the side to side on the axle, the driver's side measures 5 1/4 inches to the face of the axle from a plumb string off the fender and the passenger side measures 5 1/2 inches to the face of the axle from the plumb string. Car suspension is loaded and the ride height on driver's side and passenger side are the same at 28 3/8 so slightly higher that stock since I have my snow tires on the back which are a little taller. I am trying to decide if I should replace the panhard bar and trailing control arms.
What size tires are you running? Also, does your car seem to behave differently on different roads? These cars naturally track and the wider your tires the more they feel like they are becoming a slot car. Do you remember a time when the car didn't feel this way? How is the bearing assembly on the bottom end of your steering column?
It drove fine up to about 260,000 miles and then went downhill as the front suspension wore out so I rebuilt everything. The last time I changed tires I couldn't find the stock size so I went with 235-60x15 based upon info from folks on here. The tire size didn't seem to have any effect. I think I replaced the steering column bearing but I just went out and looked at the steering shaft. It appears to have a little play side to side and up/down but not very much. I installed the Astro Van universal joint steering column fix several years ago but it didn't have any effect on it either. All the rest of the front suspension has all new parts including a Wonder Bar and Steering Gear box rebuild which improved it to where it is today but didn't eliminate it.
It drove fine up to about 260,000 miles and then went downhill as the front suspension wore out so I rebuilt everything. The last time I changed tires I couldn't find the stock size so I went with 235-60x15 based upon info from folks on here. The tire size didn't seem to have any effect. I think I replaced the steering column bearing but I just went out and looked at the steering shaft. It appears to have a little play side to side and up/down but not very much. I installed the Astro Van universal joint steering column fix several years ago but it didn't have any effect on it either. All the rest of the front suspension has all new parts including a Wonder Bar and Steering Gear box rebuild which improved it to where it is today but didn't eliminate it.
When you replaced your steering box did you inspect the inside of the frame where the box bolts? For cars that were not given a steering brace this becomes a common area for cracks to occur which will give your steering a horrible feel. Basically the box will move around and thus your steering arm will yank on the center link. With the amount of miles you have, I'd go over that area really closely. It is repairable but requires you to strip the area down so you can get some welds in there.
Catching up on your questions. Yes, I checked the frame for cracks when I pull the steering gear box for rebuild. No cracks and, from what I can see without disassembly, I don't see any cracks today. Again, I have a Wonder Bar on the front. I used the original pitman arm and made sure I used the correct idler arm (based upon notes on this forum about the aftermarket idlers). The front is tight at all points.. I am pretty certain the center link is in correctly (can you actually get it to fit incorrectly?). I recently installed the Spohn tubular A arms so the ball joints and bushings are new. I had it aligned by an old school aligner that knows what he is doing and I don't have any tire wear.
I just finished putting in the Alston Subframe Connectors. I have had them for many years but didn't get around to putting them in until now. I haven't test driven yet since I am letting the car settle before tightening the bolts on the SFC's. I will tighten the bolts tomorrow (Thursday) and test drive to see if that makes a difference.
A note on the Alston SFC's. Granted the ones I have are from 10 years ago so they may have improved them by now. The rear connect points work good but the front ones don't line up real well and the "pocket shape" doesn't quite match the front subframe. Also, the bolts are two different sizes with the rears shorter than the front. The ones on the front right (passenger side) are a little too long so I had to add a couple of extra washers (grade 8) I may have them welded later.
I just finished putting in the Alston Subframe Connectors. I have had them for many years but didn't get around to putting them in until now. I haven't test driven yet since I am letting the car settle before tightening the bolts on the SFC's. I will tighten the bolts tomorrow (Thursday) and test drive to see if that makes a difference.
A note on the Alston SFC's. Granted the ones I have are from 10 years ago so they may have improved them by now. The rear connect points work good but the front ones don't line up real well and the "pocket shape" doesn't quite match the front subframe. Also, the bolts are two different sizes with the rears shorter than the front. The ones on the front right (passenger side) are a little too long so I had to add a couple of extra washers (grade 8) I may have them welded later.
Looking forward to hearing how the test drive goes. Have any pictures of the problems you had with them?
I can shoot some pictures tomorrow. Additional problem is drilling the holes for the bolts. That was a PITA. A right angle drill is a must in my opinion. In several places you have to drill through from one side to the other since the holes have limited clearance and that is really hard to do to hit the SFC hole on th opposite side. I had to take the hangars loose on the exhaust at the Cat and disconnect the exhaust pipe to pry them down far enough to get the right angle drill in from one side. On the driver's side you have to loosen the fuel and brake lines to get them out of the way. I had to remove the fuel filter bracket also and will need to trim the bottom edge to clear the SFC side plate. All this is not something you can do by crawling underneath with the car on ramps or regular jack stands. You also need a flat floor to keep the car square. I had to jack the SFC's into place. I have my car on crib blocks so high enough to work. Took me about an hour and a half for each side (maybe a little more).
Catching up on your questions. I used the original pitman arm and made sure I used the correct idler arm (based upon notes on this forum about the aftermarket idlers). The front is tight at all points.. I am pretty certain the center link is in correctly (can you actually get it to fit incorrectly?).
Yes, the centerlink can be installed backwards. That would make your geometry just funky enough, but still track straight and align normally
Is the centerlink level? There are flats on the bottom I used a short level on and adjusted the idler arm up and down to level it.
The inner tie rods can be installed from the front or the back. They should be installed from the back with the castle nuts towards the front of the car.
Congrats on getting the SFC"s. I have used Alston's in the past. I also paired them with a set of Spohns on the perimeter. That was a convertible and the doors opened and closed great and there were zero rattles!
"I may have them welded later."
This is a good idea. I have heard that the holes in the subframe can "woller" out over time and cause the connectors to move with the frame twist.
Here are pictures of the front linkages. I did set up the idler arm for correct bump steer using the A arm locations for reference when I installed the new one so the center link is parallel to the ground and A arm center of rotation.
I just finished a test drive and the SFC's seemed to improve the steering problem a bit but still have some wander. I agree about the welding since the subframes are thin metal. Anyway, here are some pictures. Notice that the slope of the connection points don't allow the bolt heads to sit flush. Also, you have to reinstall the heat shield before installing the passenger side SFC. I also had to trim the corner of the heat shield at the front connection point on the passenger side.
Drivers Side Front Connection
Drivers Side Rear Connection
Passenger Side Front Connection (Bolts Too Long Also)
Passenger Side Rear Connection
No room to drill from the inside so you have to drill through from the other side. Tough to hit the hole correctly.
Actually, it passed 260,000 a long time ago.. It has 480,000 miles on it now... I have been driving it as my daily driver since early 1993 so 30 years now...
I got the car back yesterday from the muffler shop so was able to get it out and drive quite a distance. The handling problem persists after adding the SFC's. It is worse at high speeds and on rough roads. I have another used steering gear box that I may swap into the car to see if that makes a difference. Other than that, I guess the next thing to look at is the lower trailing control arms and the panhard bar. Those had new urethane bushings about 10 years ago but only have about 35,000 miles on them. The rear doesn't seem to move around other than "tire sidewall give" when I push it from side to side at the rear. Other possibilities include the new Spohn tubular A arms that I put on although the steering problem was a bit worse before those. I can't remember if I loaded them before tightening the bushings so I may loosen them and re-tighten with the suspension loaded. And finally, sort of out of the box, I am wondering if the Posi Rearend (Yukon Gears) could have some affect on the steering. I don't remember having the problem after I installed those.
Actually, it passed 260,000 a long time ago.. It has 480,000 miles on it now... I have been driving it as my daily driver since early 1993 so 30 years now...
That's incredible. Well done. Have you tried a different set of wheels and tires? I am not sure if you covered that in this thread. How old is the rubber on the car?
Just a FYI, ReadHead steering tightens their boxes too much on PURPOSE.
after 5-7,000 miles or so they wear in and drive very nice.
They are darty and sensitive when new.
but if you loosen the adjustment nut, you'll run into slop issues later on.(&void your warranty with them)
The tires are nearly new with less than 8,000 miles on them. They are radial T/A's. Problem was there before putting them on.
I have tried my Redhead Gears rebuild box with it loose and tight. I don't know if I can tighten it any more than it is right now. I can try loosening it again.
While waiting on EGR parts I put the car up on blocks, crawled underneath and loosened the bolts on the A arms since I couldn't remember if I tightened them loaded or unloaded. I also greased the bushings, ball joints and steering linkage. I left them loose and took it out for a test drive. I put about 20 miles on it and it is remarkably improved. There is still a little wander but not nearly what it was. I think I probably tightened the A arms unloaded so once they were loaded when the tires would hit a ridge in the road or a bump there was no "give" left in the A arms so the tires would suddenly ride up lifting the car onto the ridge pulling the car sideways. Just a theory... I can't leave them as loose as they are now so I will tighten but loaded this time. Anyway, how tight should the bolts be on the A arms? These are Spohn tubular arms.
I decided lacking any other course to tighten the bushing bolts to 32 ft-lbs. Spec is 63 to 65 for stock bushings so I thought I would go about half that for a while to see how it drives. I did just do a test drive and it is still significantly improved but not quite as good as having the bolts loose like last night.
01-24-2018, 05:47 PM
