First I would like to say I respect all the manufacturers and distributors of the various products that are available to 3rd gen owners. I am building or rebuilding my suspension and doing alot of upgrading. I have been going through the different companies (BMR, UMI, SPOHN, Founders)web site and they all seem a little similar. Is there any real difference between the different products. Im looking to buy, A-arms, Caster-camber plates, weight jacks, any opinions would be appreciated and listened to Im looking to purchase "now" to get my car on the road.

Thank you

 

Another product line you may want to consider is QA1. They manufacture their own product. I found the same thing when was searching.

 

QA1 was on my short list for a while but with their A-arm being 679 and Spohn at 489 I couldn't justify the additional cost. I need to take in consideration if one companies additional cost is that much better than the other. This build is on a budget but I don't want to cut corners for a few bucks here and there.

 

I here ya. It's gotta be in the budget. I know that its good quality but can't tell you what the difference would be. Most would go with reviews and their gut but I would assume that there would be very few who have tried both for a good comparison to go by. Best of luck

 

Be careful with any suspension upgrades that stiffens your car. The handling may be great, but the ride will suffer.
I know this from personal experience. In fact, I regret many of the various upgrades I did for the end results. Pricey lessons.

 

You'll have to clarify that. These cars from the factory are very flimsy, so flimsy that when you go down the road the body can flex over bumps and uneven terrain and cause squeaks and rattles that wouldn't otherwise be there on a flat road. Adding subframe connectors is the best modification you can make to these vehicles. It corrects or at least lessens a great deal of issues.

 

You're right. Adding subframe connectors WAS the best modification done, and a Monte Carlo bar in the engine compartment.
The ride was still very good, but no creaking or flex noises driving up my driveway.
I should have left it at that, but I installed new, better handling, name brand, expensive parts instead with amazing handling. The
comfortable ride became much more harsh afterwards. If I ever do another IROC, I'll just add the subframes and MC bar only.

 

Define your goal... street car, race track, drag strip, percentage of each ???

I REALLY like the Founders Poly 3 way Joint A Arms.... control and articulation...

I would not buy Spohn A Arms, or much else from them... after replacing my stock a arms, my wheels sat back in the opening and rubbed when turning deep (which didn't happen before)... I've read others where the wheels now sat forward in the opening, etc... I've reached out to them for help.... crickets... I resold them and stuck global west Delrin bushings in my stock and could not be happier...

I've had great luck with Founders, BMR, UMI, etc...

If you're going hard core stuff, then some of the metal heim joint stuff would help, but don't put that on a street car, it will be really loud and jarring, as opposed to the poly stuff from Founders... get the right parts / tools for what you want to do with the car...

As noted above, Sub Frame connectors make a big difference... I have Spohn and Alstons... for torque arm, I first started with just the poly bushing, you could feel the difference from the factory worn out rubber bushing... I went to a Spohn torque arm with linkage and I had a lot of noise... some people do, some don't, again, not much help from Spohn... Went with UMI torque arm and trans cross member to hold it. No linckage and poly bushing... louder than stock, quieter than spohn, much improved traction over stock with or without poly bushing...

If you're lowering the stock height, then that introduces the need to get adjustable items, panhard bar, lower control arms, lower control arm relocation brackets, etc...

I stuck with stock height so I didn't have to mess with any of that...

Rafael

 

IMO UMI is the best suspension vendor for the Thirdgen. Good products, good prices, they have sales, support this forum and have the best customer service. I have the heim joints all over my car, I'll take a small amount of noise over dried out/hardened bushings every few years. Easy to tell when a heim joint is bad, with poly I was never sure if it was too dried out or not.

If you don't see yourself keeping the car for many years and driving autocross or something then I wouldn't lower it, you'll easily spend a grand replacing all the suspension parts to correct geometry.

Replace bushings, springs and shocks and add subframe connectors to get back to stock performance. That can be a grand right there. Rear lower control arm relocation brackets and then assess how deep you still want to go with how much you're willing to spend.

Stick with UMI, BMR and founders. QA1 is good for joints. Spohn got a name when they started in the Thirdgen world and that is why they are discussed so much in older threads but they have since decided they aren't interested in Thirdgen. IMO UMI has taken the respected place they used to hold in the Thirdgen world.

DSE has come into our world very recently, they do have good products but unless you have a sponsorship or have the economic standing that allows your wife to think you spending 5K on aftermarket parts is no big deal then they are probably out of your league.

 

I like Founders and UMI. Both seem to give great support to members on this board and both company's make top notch stuff. Just do some research on each companies parts to what fit your needs for price and features, As the OP said I used the Founders Trailing arms with the 3 piece poly bushing and they work as advertised. I have the UMI STB which has adjustable ends which makes it an easy fit. Whichever manufacturer you chose you will be very happy with the end result. It makes a BIG difference in not just the handling but the ride is sooo much better, don't forget the SFC's these ARE the most important and should be the 1st suspension part you buy. Get them welded in. I used Alston's(now Hiedt's),

 

I won't buy QA1 because it is my understanding that they cost reduced by using China parts and quality went to hell.

If you're going to prioritize spending then I would be sure to allocate money to really good shocks. Nothing else matters if you can't keep the tires following the road to create grip. It is what makes one car ride rough and another ride good. Hands down, Koni Yellow front struts is where the smart money is. The next step up is a huge price jump.

Next, you want the suspension pick up points (where things mount to the car) to stay put as much as possible. Top strut mounts are the weak point. Upgrade those to keep the front strut geometry anchored. The other suspension pick up points are solid enough but move relative to one another with chassis flex. This is where chassis strengthening comes in to play. Outer subframe connectors should box in the rear control arm mounts, weld to the body across the front-rear span, and "Y" into the trans tunnel. Not sure which brands accomplish that (mine are not sold any more). Detroit Speed has a unique product that requires a lot of cutting and welding, but it is totally integrated into the body and not a "add on" under the car. People don't tend to mention it, but there is also such thing as an inner subframe connector, sold by Alston. Makes a lot of sense and suggest you take a look at it.

Rear control arms are low tech and any brand will do as long as quality parts are used at the rod ends. Two objectives here: (1) Reduce binding of the rear suspension by adding articulating joints, and (2) have adjustability so you can "square up" the rear axle and tires. You won't suffer from vibration/harshness as long as the body side of the control arm has a bushing that dampens vibration (rubber, poly, or something like that).

You can do a simple panhard rod with adjustable length (to square the rear axle), or take it a step further with the UMI panhard rod with adjustable height. The height adjustment will allow you to change roll center to take handling to the next level.

If you go through the effort to buy an aftermarket torque arm then make sure it has adjustable pinion angle and get the front mount off the transmission. It's just the smart thing to do. The length of torque arm has a huge effect on "instant center" and how loads are transferred to tires during acceleration and braking. Lots of choices out there. Fact is, the stock length works great. Whatever you do, don't buy the Global West because it will end up causing fatigue failure of the floorboards under the rear seat. The UMI short torque arm (same as Hawks Sinister) has terribly poor ground clearance so I would steer clear of that too (ask me how I know!).

 

Great discussion. I was about to snag the Founders LCAs+Panhard combo to put the power down a little better and just get these in along with the SFCs next month, both in their simplest non-adjustable (and cheapest) forms. Consensus here from my reading was absent lowering or racing circuit, non-adj. for a street car is the way to go. ...exceeept for a few dudes who said adj. may be useful to get perfect geometry. Any comments here?

 

Also as long as you keep stock spec parts. Buy an aftermarket part that is a different functional design or different dimensions and you may need an adjustable widget to correct. If you are not participating in organized, "off road" events then the stock height with stock spec parts will most likely allow the car to handle better than you can drive. Legal or not. I no longer subscribe to the theory of buying aftermarket parts so you can do some aggressive street driving-- it's just blatantly unsafe. You take a turn fast and find out there are little bits of gravel that cause you to spin out. Or you take a turn fast only to find out the driver in the oncoming lane of the turn can't stay in his lane. Or you drive aggressively in traffic and there was an officer that, where'd he come from? Or you took an on ramp fast and swooped into traffic, the semi driver didn't appreciate it and called you in for DUI suspicion.... I can go on with learning experiences from my 20s...

 

Yea I don’t plan on going nuts with shiny red poly everything. Just the two mentioned to tighten it up and get some better RW grip. I suppose unless you’re aware the chassis has permanently bent the non-adj. is fine- Founders didn’t mess with the dimensions to my knowledge. Cheers

 

Street or track, it doesn't matter, if you're going to spend the money then you want parts that work. Buy smart, buy once.

 

Agreed. Qwk, just to beat the subject to death- you mention adj. LCAs and panhard to “square up” the car. You think my premise of stock size non-adj. “set it and forget it” for no racing is sound or ya think perhaps there’s a decent probability any of these near ~30year old cars would be found to benefit from adjustibility during a competent level install?

As a side note not only is my concern possibly paying more for a feature (x2) I’d never use but it strikes me that non-adj. would also be stronger(?)

 

Didn't realize it was 2x the cost. I bought mine almost 20 years ago. Yes, non adjustable control arms works fine, but adjustable works better IF you take advantage of what it has to offer. You might compromise with the control arms but I would not compromise with the panhard bar.

Adjustable control arms allow you to move the axle forward or backward to suit needs. Maybe you want to move the axle further forward to produce less rotational inertia and better handling. Maybe you want move the axle back to get more clearance for big tires. It also gives you adjustment to reach the axle mounts where they naturally land after setting proper pinion angle with torque arm. If you've ever tried to put the axle in and that last piece was a real b**** to line up, it might mean the parts are fighting each other and possibly causing some bind during movement.

If you're reading this and saying to yourself.... "REALLY??? Dude, I just want to drive and have some fun"..... then just buy some good shocks, subframe connectors, and quality bushings to replace the old. Seriously, everybody has a different idea what is important to them and my answers aren't the final answer. Only you can decide your final answer.

 

Rockin’ answer. Thanks Qwk. Yeah I meant two features...though is nearly twice the cost.

https://www.foundersperformance.com/...s-panhard-bar/

https://www.foundersperformance.com/...s-panhard-rod/

I’ll prolly go the cheap route (northern peso and typically some surprise extra obligatory donation to the Liberal Party to clear the border) and switch out to adjustable many moons from now should I get h-core with with more track time where you’d be using that functionality.

 

Going through the options I pulled the trigger on cheapest best solution. Caster camber plates by Founders, A-arm by SPOHN and weight jacks from UMI My preference would have been all UMI but budget didn't allow it. Motor will go in soon then ill put the suspension in Ill take some video of the install and pictures and place in LS swap board. But in my research Founders was the best bang for the buck.

 

Way too many problems with Spohn A arms. UMI has 0 problems and are built better.

 

Honestly, I don't know why people buy a-arms when they talk like they are on a budget and cutting corners elsewhere. A-arms are some expensive shizzle for not much of a purpose.

 

I looked through some of the pros and cons and found out some a little later after ordering...there are so many variants in putting my combination together... Ill have to fix them as they come... My car is a lil dual purpose show and go.... Im trying not to sacrafice or cut too many corners at all. I think for some of the parts its a matter of accepting risk and fulfilling short term goals. For example I need to put on new shocks... Preference are KONI's but they are a little out of budget. Ill put on a set of KYB AGX and replace them next year or so after the car is up and running. But I and most people do appreciate everyone's input and then do there best. The disadvantage of the 3rd gen camaro crowd... 1. Not alot of us modding, then 2. Not alot of people doing expensive builds. 3.Alot of differing opinions. ... in the end whats the definition of "budget"

 

The agx shocks are a decent street shock. If you know you're changing them in a year, skip them and get a pair of parts store specials to get you through. Hard to sell used, average shocks.

 

The amount of money you're willing to spend in a period of time. I used to say I didn't have a budget but I was wrong. I was just willing to wait more time to get what I wanted.

But there are some things I just won't do because I consider it irresponsible use of money. For example, I have budget for a set of $6K wheels but I refuse to use my money that way. Or even worse, I could buy a $100K Dodge, but that is just dumb so I refuse.

 

All of the mfrs make "good" parts. So let's do a mental exercise.

Mack makes good trucks. The Corvette is a good sporty car. Which one is "better"?

I guess that depends on whether you want to haul gravel, or assuage your small member insecurity. Eh??? Whaddya think?

Suspension parts, and engine parts, are like that. SUITABILITY FOR PURPOSE. None (well, few...) are "bad", or even, "not good", let alone "best". It's all about, DO THEY MATCH WHAT YOU WANT YOUR CAR TO DO.

So the very first thing you need to figure out is, WHAT DO YOU WANT YOUR CAR TO DO/BE. Then AND ONLY THEN, you can evaluate parts against the ultimate goal.

We haven't heard you tell us what you want your car to be/do. Fill us in a bit on that. Canyon carver? SCCA class racer? Strip? Trailer queen? Pro Stock? No-prep king? Daily driver? P**** wagon? The possibilities are almost endless, and each produces COMPLETELY different choices of "best" parts FOR THE PURPOSE.

 

Nooooo, often you can rank them.

For example, if you are in the market for a strut tower mount then you can have a UMI where the bearing is loaded from the bottom and held in with a c-clip.... OR.... you can have a Spohn where the bearing is loaded from the top and sits in a machined cup. Guess what happens when the c-clip fails in the UMI?

You can get Spohn a-arms or K-member and be the next guy to post a thread about why things look funky when assembled.

You can get BMR a-arms and K-member (like me) and some springs won't fit in the pocket. And the k-member is so flimsy that you can flex it by hand when it is not mounted in the car, and it bends/folds if jacked on.

Some subframe connectors just add weight to the car.

Struts and shocks can definitely be ranked. Although you are correct that application matters.

You can get a Global West torque arm that will eventually ventilate your floor pan. You can get a UMI short torque arm and take it sledding on the street, get stuck trying to drive up on an alignment rack, or not be able to drive up on your car trailer. It was only a matter of time until I hit something immovable and something really, really bad was going to happen to my car.

The list could go on, but the point is some parts are worth filtering off the pick-list from the get go.

 

This all runs counter to 107 different SuperChevy articles where he with the most red **** on the underside of his car wins. ...of course, they do have advertisers. ; )

 

And don't forget to wear the slim-fit Medium sized T-shirt that comes with the parts too!

 

Don’t forget the stickers!

btw what do you guys think of the poly+spherical LCAs? I already ordered the Founders (poly/poly) and had seen some old posts “don’t bother with spherical for a street car” but of course reading this now I’m going “hmm..”
http://www.globalwest.net/camaro-rea...7-1988-19.html

 

My opinion, and take it for what it's worth, is that a Rod\Poly is a good balance of both worlds. The rod end will articulate, preventing bind, while the poly end bolted to the body will eliminate some of the noise\vibration.

That being said, it all depends on what you're doing with the car as has been mentioned several times already. Think of it like a scale.

Comfort -------------------------------------------------------- Performance
Rubber----------Poly-----------------Poly\Rod------------------Rod\Rod

Obviously this scale is probably not accurate, but hopefully it conveys the idea.

 

Extremely helpful. Thanks dude!

 

Just be aware that spherical rod end requires a lot of maintenance and is killed fairly quickly by daily driving. Use Amsoil motorcycle chain lube to keep it clean. The Amsoil stuff is spendy but dust won't collect to it and the bearing will last longer.

 

^^ Might be very circumstantial. I've had mine for seven or eight years of recreational use (8,000 miles?) And a few years of autocross and I haven't seen any frozen or wobbly joints. These are also the founders brand of rod ends that many members have said are sub optimal to begin with.

Are we saying its a plain old wear and tear from mileage argument? If so what mileage are you thinking? An issue with road treatment products in colder weather?

 

I have had this car for 22 years and it has changed its purpose multiple times from an SPL car to a show car to its current iteration. I'm trying to build a daily capable that can be fun burning up the highway. I'm sacrificing a little of the comfortable to handle better. I was going to put a watts link in it but end up buying a ford 9 with built in back brace and built in roll bar. The 9 made me change its purpose a little besides I have a 4th gen that handles like a beast with every suspension mod besides a watts link. Long story to say what....I'm trying to build a fun car that's jack of all trades master of none. I was building the front suspension to get rid of the factory slop. Does my rambling make sense.

 

I forgot about this option too since I kept looking at the simple simon all poly non-adj. LCA + panhard combo at that great price.

https://www.foundersperformance.com/...ird-1982-2002/

I suppose on that comfort-performance spectrum this one would come in between poly/poly and poly/rod? Sounds like a cool innovation.

 

A couple other kits caught my eye. I know the PO put in one new tie rod and ball joint last year but he wasn’t exactly picky to say the least so I suspect the remainder of the front setup is near 30 years old tired.

https://www.1aauto.com/1982-92-chevy...=323797&y=1989

http://www.moog-suspension-parts.com...packagedeal007

That being said it may be a waste if there’s no discernible improvement in handling/drive qual.

 

When contemplating selection of bushings, this page is helpful: http://www.suspension.com/blog/rubbe...sion-bushings/

There is a REASON why new cars don't come with poly bushings.

My recent experience rebuilding my front suspension: https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/susp...-bushings.html

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To a point. There are exceptions though.

My 83 HO car came with poly end links in the front. (not bushings, but w/e) Some of the other top-line cars in our group may have as well. The factory will dip their toe in the deep end of "performance", but when the high school girls / middle-age Viagra substitute buyers w mid-life crisis / little old ladies wanting some "style" / and all the rest come back complaining about NVH, and that can be EXPENSIVE to cure, they back off in a hurry.

Same reason the factory shocks & struts are SO pathetic, the springs don't last, etc. etc. etc.

There's a balance among "performance", "smooth ride", cost, longevity, difficulty of installation, maintenance requirements, and a WHOLE BUNCH of other things, that the "suspension" must maintain. Understanding HONESTLY where on that continuum YOU stand, is CRITICAL to picking the right stuff.

Again, suitability for purpose, as opposed to "quality" or "best" or anything abstract like that. For pure performance, you might want a tube frame and all end-joint construction; I doubt your SO would want to commute to work with you though. You yourself might get tired of it after awhile, when your back feels like it's been worked over by a baseball bat and you have to wear aircraft-grade earmuffs, just from driving over your local roads after a hard winter's damage, and you get tired of having to get under it with a grease gun every single day.

Personally, I tend greatly toward the performance side of the equation, but not all the way. If I can get 80% of the "performance" with only 20% of the undesirables (including cost), that's where I'd like to be.

 

IMO the most important question to be HONESTLY answered before purchasing something is if YOU as a driver have the requisite skill (which is perishable) and space (ie sanctioned event) to drive at the level where a performance upgrade would be noticed. If not you are just wasting your money .

 

I think the OP is doing a supercharged LS transplant. Having a suspension that is tight, sorted, and predictable gets to be pretty important when tires can spin at freeway speeds. My guess is he will be like me and keep tweaking over time as he feels the way things behave.

 

Great article WEG. Really coalesces all the trade-offs members mention here and there. And moreover superb thread. Analysis by part# plus vids. F*ckin clinical man. Well done. I will be rereading in detail.

I myself am hemmed in by several blocks of potholes and speed bumps and just boot this thing to work once I finally crawl past that labyrinth, with track days very few and far between (and far away). Hence I was thinking about Moog rubber all up front. The article mentioning poly as a low/non NVH add for the front sway bar is interesting so I’ll go that route there. Have to check those RPOs as ya mentioned for mm surety.

 

I only skimmed the article, so I'm not sure if it was mentioned, but it should be noted that poly, if I'm remembering correctly, will make the sway bars act as if they are larger than they really are.

 

Qwktrip....is correct having my planned horsepower on the street and not having a sorted suspension can potentially be dangerous. My father has also always taught me to do it right the first time. I wanted the suspension to bee right but not rigid. So far everything is poly and some rod pieces here and there like steering linkages. Some decisions are also based on budget and spending wisely. My 4th is almost all poly accept front power control arms and I think it sits between perfect and rough....wouldn't change a thing. The components that are available for 3rd gens are already a good compromise but in the end it's going to depend how much street driving needs to be done and roads in your area. Mine can be a little rough

 

Well so far I got the Alston + BMR sfcs sittin here along with the Founders poly/poly non-adj. LCAs+panhard. Like many before me I figure I’ll order these for the 36/24mm front/rear sways. This way they’ll be ready to go on pronto end of April when the car emerges from its offsite slumber. We’ll see how much slower I’ll have to crawl out of my neighbourhood- I figure the payoff will come once I hit the big streets. I’m not road tripping in this thing after all.

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/ens-3-5213r

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/ens-3-5147r

A few guys mentioned smaller rears sway bars for optimal handling in the presence of SFC’s but I’m not about to start messing with new ones before getting some seat-of-the-pants experience w this typical route.

 

 

I went with Sphon SFC, lower control arms, pan hard bar along with relocation bracket. All with the Del-Sphere. I also have the UMI STB, so far they have all work out very nicely and great improvements at the track. Yes the ride is a bit noisier than with stock rubber but IMO not that much.
Looking to get the Torque Arm next, but undecided which way to go.
Sac