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I rebuilt the steering on my '89 camaro and got new tires. 215/65/15's all 4 corners. Got the alignment done. I noticed when I pulled out of firestone's tiny parking lot that once I get to about 75% turn it starts to skip the tires and they screech. They said everything I rebuilt looked fine and the ball joints were still good, so I don't think I installed anything wrong. But it's embarrassing in a drive thru. I attached the alignment specs from firestone. I was hoping someone could give me some ideas because I have no clue what is wrong. Above is before the alignment. Bottom is what they set it to.
Last edited by Kyler_89RS; Oct 7, 2021 at 03:44 AM.
My $.02- with the exception of toe, your specs were more appropriate before the alignment than after, especially the camber. The only reason to go positive camber on these cars is the reason GM did in the 80s: to make the lawyers happy, it causes the front to lose traction faster resulting in understeer and a car that is harder to wreck (and drive fast). That alignment will cause the outside edges of the front tires to wear out fast.
For street use and general handling usually shoot for between -.5 and -1* camber (the more aggressive your driving the closer you want to get to -1), just a hair toe in (set last), and as much negative caster as I can get (I'd want between -5 and -6, but by the time you set that camber most cars are limited in the caster you can get out of them, I've seen earlier third gens that you could barely get -3.5* once you set the camber without modifying things). In some cases (and areas, roads are different in different areas) you may get a little pull from the road crown, and in that case, I'd set the caster to be about .5 more (less negative) on the driver's side to compensate.
My father had this happen on his Chevy Silverado after replacing all of the front end parts, he had multiple alignments done and multiple shops/dealerships look at it, and they finally found that the Center link was put on incorrectly/backwards causing it to bind and the tires to act extremely strange when turning in either direction. Wouldn't hurt to double check everything was installed properly of course this is assuming that by "rebuilt" you mean inner/outer tie rods, center link, idler arm and such.
These cars all do that. Can't be helped. It's inherent in the design of the front end. Has to do with making the car drive the best it can at speed, sacrificing parking-lot behavior to get that.
"Silverado" is not relevant for the most part, as it's a double control arm design, where our cars are not; and has LOTS of other detail differences. Incorrect assembly however is one of those possibilities that can never be ignored, after the car has ever been worked on.
Butt these cars did that the day they rolled off the showroom floor, even with the factory's crappy alignment "specs". Those aren't really relevant either. Doesn't matter how you align it, it's still gonna do that.
Best to just get used to it, and drive it in such a way as to minimize it. It's REAL hard on the edges of the tires, especially the outside edges. (because that's the fundamental problem... at large turning angles, the "Ackerman" angle goes negative, toed inward, instead of outward; and the camber on both tires goes WWWWWAAAAAAAYYYY positive)
as much negative caster as I can get (I'd want between -5 and -6, but by the time you set that camber most cars are limited in the caster you can get out of them, I've seen earlier third gens that you could barely get -3.5* once you set the camber without modifying things)
Just for the record, you actually want POSITIVE Caster, not Negative.
Most of these cars it's tough to get even +5°, and even at that, you end up with the tire scraping the fender well under certain circumstances. Haven't ever really noticed any particular "interaction" between caster & camber that acted as a limiting factor.
You typically want -½ to -1° camber though.
But none of that will have any material effect on the tires binding up the way they do; that's built into the basic geometry of the front end. EVERY ONE of these cars has ALWAYS done that, since the day they were new. The more solid you make the front end (wonder bar, strut tower brace, poly CA bushings, and so on), the worse it gets, because the tires don't point the same direction when the steering angle gets too great, and all that other stuff takes up some of the binding by flexing.
Once again, they ALL do that, it can't be helped. It's inherent in the design.
I have very sticky tires and there is so much drag with wheels turned tight that I have to give the car extra throttle just to move. The drag is very very noticeable and goes away turning the wheel a bit. Doesn't skip (just drags smooth) but it's all the same reason why.
The ackerman angles are not correct on these cars. Not sure why GM let that go, but there are some on here that have worked on correcting it. Entails relocating the tie rod mounting point on the spindle steering arm.
Is the center-link installed correctly?
I see backwards center-links a LOT
the inner tie rod castle nuts should face the front of the car.
If you sick your head under the bumper, the castle nuts should be facing you.
This a random pic from someone that shows the castle nuts facing the correct direction
I rebuilt my front end a few years ago. Like, EVERYTHING. As expected, despite best effort it would not drive straight at all when done. That was okay, there was a Firestone nearby to do the alignment on a drive-on rack. Which I needed because replaced the idler arm and was fairly sure the height was wrong.
I was surprised when Firestone wouldn't use the alignment specs I wanted (from this board for aggressive street alignment). As I needed the alignment badly, and its as 50 miles home, I just paid the stupid fee.
But yeah, never to Firestone again for an alignment. I'll plan on finding ANY shop near where I do work to align it properly. Freaking positive camber, ugh.
Is the center-link installed correctly?
I see backwards center-links a LOT
the inner tie rod castle nuts should face the front of the car.
If you sick your head under the bumper, the castle nuts should be facing you.
This a random pic from someone that shows the castle nuts facing the correct direction
Mine is the wrong way. Just got under there today and replaced transmission mount.
When I switch it the other way, should I go get it aligned again?
When I switch it the other way, should I go get it aligned again?
Yes. The steering will DEFINITELY be affected. The toe in particular will be out in the ozone somewhere. Caster & camber won't change.
When it's the right way, the inner end of each tie rod, is exactly directly in line with the control arm bolts when the steering is centered, such that as the CA articulates, the tie rod articulates EXACTLY the same. It neither pushes outward nor pulls inward on the spindle as the CA moves. (or at least, as close to this as possible) If it does move, which of course it always does to some extent, the effect is called "bump steer", because the car gets steered to that extent by going over bumps. The "Ackerman" problem results from the arm on the spindle not being perfectly straight front-to-rear: it has to be angled inward a bit to clear the wheel and everything else as the steering goes through its range of motion, which leads to the inner tire on a very sharp curve not turning as far as the outer tire, because of the arc that the spindle arm swings through. The opposite of "Ackerman", which is the name given to the fact that since the inner tire is actually travelling in a smaller circle than the other, the difference between the 2 should be the other way. (inner tire should turn MORE than the outer one, not LESS) A totally TRIVIAL AND INSIGNIFICANT tradeoff IMO; I'd MUCH rather that my car have as near-perfect geometry as possible while driving AT SPEED, and I'm willing to sacrifice some harmless trivial minor misbehavior when driving 100 INCHES at 1 mph so that it works the best it can for 100 MILES at 100 mph. Some people just don't "get" that though, mostly from failing to understand why it does the parking-lot thing in the first place.
When the center link is backwards, several things get farkled: the inner tie rod end is no longer directly in line with the CA bolts, since the bolts are at an angle; and, the tie rod is no longer in a perfectly straight line left-to-right, but instead is too far forward at the center. The whole thing articulates wrong, and causes the wheels to be turned in some other way than straight, as everything moves through its range of up/down and left/right motion.
Part of this was no doubt caused by re-using control arms (and brakes) that are actually originally for some other vehicle. Much like the 1st gen Camaro was the same up front as the Chevy II Nova. I'm sure we've all noticed the shock absorber mount pattern in the middle of the spring pocket: that's because these CAs are THE SAME AS those in other GM vehicles that used upper AND lower control arms, and shocks. According to the suspension mfrs, the same part # that fits our cars, also fits A & G bodies and S trucks; there may be others as well that they're not concerned with because people practically never modify them and therefore they don't sell them as such. Astro vans for example may be in this category.
