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350 Cfi

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Old May 12, 2002 | 10:41 PM
  #1  
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350 Cfi

I am looking into converting my 305 to 350. What do I need to change to make this happen? If there is someone with pics and info about converting like this, pleeeeeeeease let me know.

btw I have an 82 Trans Am 5.0
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Old May 12, 2002 | 11:17 PM
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They did use the same ECM (5500), so I believe the all you would have to change is the injectors. People have said that the 350 CFI manifold is different, though I havent seen any difference between the two. It wouldnt make sense to manufacture two different manifolds because it wouldnt be cost effective for GM.
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Old May 13, 2002 | 01:26 AM
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there are two different manifolds. Not for the 305, 350 but early and late styles

late styles have balacer holes in the runners


I think all you need to change are the injectors and the prom
check this out

http://www.crossfire.webhop.net/
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Old May 13, 2002 | 02:47 PM
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Car: 91 RS
Engine: 305
Transmission: T5
Axle/Gears: 3.73
nsimmons

Could you tell me what the opening under the intake is for.

Is it a water passage?

Thanks

Darrell
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Old May 13, 2002 | 10:43 PM
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i suggest not changing to a 350 to much of a hassle!

i wouldnt change ur motor to a 350 to hard to do!
just beef up ur little 305 for now till u get enough money
for a beefed up 350 zz4 or something like that. i got a 305 cfi and it's pretty damn fast. many people underestimate the potential for these cars. my 1/4 i could guess would be about 14.3-14.5 for my car but that is not with a good cam or heads, so their still is alot left to mod!
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Old May 13, 2002 | 11:11 PM
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Re: i suggest not changing to a 350 to much of a hassle!

Originally posted by jesse83cfi
i wouldnt change ur motor to a 350 to hard to do!
just beef up ur little 305 for now till u get enough money
for a beefed up 350 zz4 or something like that. i got a 305 cfi and it's pretty damn fast. many people underestimate the potential for these cars. my 1/4 i could guess would be about 14.3-14.5 for my car but that is not with a good cam or heads, so their still is alot left to mod!

Hahahaha! First changing 305 into a 350 isnt hard to do....Its impossible. Secondly Your slighty modded lu5 is nowhere near 14.5. Your "guess" is wayyyyy off , your car may feel fast with CFI but trust me take it to the track and watch the 16's light up on the board.

And before you say that I dont know anything about cfi My car was originaly a CFI car started off running 17's and after a bunch off mods got it down to 15.3 , and that is with headers , 3.73's a hypertech stage 3 chip , exhaust work fabricated high flow cold air system , an underdrive crank pulley , a bunp in fuel pressure and a few other things. Switched to an l69 unduction and computer and gained more than four tenths , that is how crappy CFI is. It is hands down the worst induction system EVER to be put on a thirdgen v8.
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Old May 14, 2002 | 12:13 AM
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Thanks all for your comments. I think im going to take that advice and save up for a 350. I have an exhaust leak and a few other small things to worry about now, but I will put it in my "to do" list.
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Old May 14, 2002 | 01:19 AM
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yes it is a water passage under the intake, it helps reduce emissions and fuel puddling..

Evil t/a please dont spread ignorance about the crossfire. Your listed mods are minor and the only thing of major benefit is the exhaust. Crossfire third gens respond a great deal exhaust work. 3.73's are too steep for the crossfire power band. You did nothing to address the factory flaws. Did you port you intake, did you bore your tbi's any head work? cam swap?

It certainly not the best induction but it certainly isnt the worst. Simply port matching and modifying the intake a little gives as much flow as a tpi system. That is fact, we have flow numbers.

The main problem with crossfire engines is the ENGINE! they suck even my vettes engine sucks. Its getting a cam and head work in a couple weeks. 325-330hp is entirely possible out of a stock intake. Ive done enough research and spoken with enough owners to know its not that difficult to do.

Look at toms400cfi's he dropped in a 400 smogger from a pickup, with a nice exhaust and it runs 13's with the crossfire. Thats with a crappy truck engine.

And CFITA the more cubes the better, just be aware the more cubes the lower you'll be able to rev the engine. You may actually have an advantage already your 305 needs less air which will allow it to wind higher. Now whether the extra rpm is worth the loss of 45 inches..tough call, it would depend on the combination of parts, something to consider though.

btw for those interested heres the flow numbers of a tpi runner
at 28" depression
Stock intake with runner....................198.72 cfm

Stock crossfire no balancer holes
176 CFM @ 28" (with lid AND swirl plates installed.)

"mildly" ported crossfire intake flowed 199 CFM

thats only mildly ported, they can be worked quite a bit more.

Last edited by nsimmons; May 14, 2002 at 01:28 AM.
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Old May 14, 2002 | 04:32 AM
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Car: 91 RS
Engine: 305
Transmission: T5
Axle/Gears: 3.73
Originally posted by nsimmons
yes it is a water passage under the intake, it helps reduce emissions and fuel puddling..
Thanks for the reply.....If I understand correctly fuel puddling means hesitation and missing as far as how it runs? I'm having a similar problem with an unheated intake when its cool outside and the engine is not hot.

What head work do you have planned?
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Old May 14, 2002 | 06:13 AM
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Car: 1984 Corvette
Engine: Turbo 350
Transmission: 4L80E with TCI T-Com
The Cross-Fire intake in not allways heated. Only when you have the heater on. The same water that heats the air goes thru the manifold.
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Old May 14, 2002 | 06:37 AM
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Car: 91 RS
Engine: 305
Transmission: T5
Axle/Gears: 3.73
Originally posted by JoBy
The Cross-Fire intake in not allways heated. Only when you have the heater on. The same water that heats the air goes thru the manifold.
That would depend on how you have it plumbed (ie; not stock).

Grumpy suggests some manifold heat at all times to help atomize the fuel. From what I've read on the boards that should cure my problem with cool weather misfire and hesitation.

Whether it's through coolant heat or an exhaust crossover I assume that either one will work in this situation.
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Old May 14, 2002 | 09:40 AM
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Originally posted by nsimmons

Evil t/a please dont spread ignorance about the crossfire. Your listed mods are minor and the only thing of major benefit is the exhaust. Crossfire third gens respond a great deal exhaust work. 3.73's are too steep for the crossfire power band. You did nothing to address the factory flaws. Did you port you intake, did you bore your tbi's any head work? cam swap?

It certainly not the best induction but it certainly isnt the worst. Simply port matching and modifying the intake a little gives as much flow as a tpi system. That is fact, we have flow numbers.

First off my mods were listed in oirder to give him an Idea opf what a CFI car without CAM or heads is capable of running . It wasnt to see how fast you could get a cfi car to run with , cam , heads , "ported" intake and everything else you can do to it. And my T/A isnt the first or the quikest car I have owned I didnt bother modding the CFI because I knew that It along with the engine was coming out.

The 3.73's gained me almost 3 tenths and made the car more fun to drive (3.23s originally).


Secondly unless you cut and weld the runners there isnt much that you can do to it and you certainly cant gasket match it because the ports are only about 75% the size of the head ports and if you flip the manifold over you can see that you would go right through the bottom of the manifold if you tried.


You can talk all you want about the engines being weak but the fact of the matter is if you slap a carb or TPI on the same engine it will make more power.


Going with your flow numbers , you are saying that with "mild" porting you can actually match the flow numbers of a stock tpi. Setting the bar pretty low eh? TPIs dont flow all that great and just equaling them in airflow isnt enough to equal them in power.


It is possible to make 330 horses with CFI? It is if you put it on a 380 horsepower engine. It has already been proven that CFI is the worse induction systen put on a thirdgen v8 just because your vette came saddled with it doesnt change that fact , put any other stock induction on there and you will make more power.
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Old May 14, 2002 | 02:50 PM
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First off, your gears only helped because the car was so slow to start with, with a decent engine 3.73's are too tall. They're better suited for an lt1

cant gasket match? what does this look like


Theres lots to be done. Gasket match, cut out the egr, polish the runners, castingf flash, extrude hone..thats just with the stock manifold, there also the xram 250cfm a runner and the offy 300cfm a runner. That out flows the accel super ram.

Look at your car you knocked off 2 seconds without touching the induction, doesnt that tell you something about the rest of the car. Would i love to have a miniram on this thing, of course! i'd take the crossfire and burn it on my lawn and have a party, but im not so ignorant as to say there is nothing that can be done with it. I've spent over a year abosrbing every piece of crossfire info i can get my hands on, discussing it with others and wrenching my own car. I've seen enoygh time slips and dyno sheets to know what it can do. I've run the times. Hell even grumpy has his cfi third gen with 320hp, im pretty sure he could roast your car.

Im not looking to start a crossfire versus the world fight. All i asked was you not spred ignorance about the induction, i even said please. Owning one doesnt give you experience, modifying it does. Ive done about all the cheap and inexpensive mods you can do to just the induction and my car will easily out run yours with your gears and exhaust, and your other mods.

My points the original manifold flows plenty too out run an lt1 vette, produce 100ft-lbs more than an lt1 vette and decimate your little 305. The practicle hp limit for for a tpi runner or a crossfire runner is around 330hp, maybe more if you had a well designed engine. I dunno thats pretty resepectible.

Why go through the trouble of swapping your induction for a 0.3 gain, when you could have easily modified it..im talking less than a days work for a cost of maybe 30 bucks and gaines 0.5 tenths, thats what i gained and many other owners have gained slightly more or slightly less.

I used to own a 91 vette, the last and best tpi, yeah it had good grunt off the line, mainly due to its gears, but it only ran 0.2 seconds faster than this car in the quarter.

Bottom line the absolute limit of this system as it stands with a ported intake should be high 12's or at the very worst 13.1 or 13.2 im taking properly designed engine, drag radials, the whole nine yards, off the bottle
(crossfire respond HUGE to n20 how about a 12.5 from engine with just exhaust 1.6 rockers and gears)

thats pretty damn impressive. Now if thats not fast enough for you, why thy hell did you buy a 305 that could only run 17's you expect to modify it to run 11's? If 13's are your goal you money is better spent else where.

As for DM91RS's questions
the car is getting some pocket porting, runner work in approx 3 weeks, (im wiaitng for some parts to show up, and i need a couple more), im also swapping in a summit cam, a little conservative 204, 214, 423, 443
very similar to the crane compu 2030

The car will also receive a lid spacer, a little touch up work on the manifold, set of headmen headers, and straight pipes.

Similar build ups to this show 260-280hp, i might also get more tbi's bored but im not entirely sure if it'll need it yet. With traction the car should be able to run in the 13's, and with the huge torque advantage have no trouble with most c4's stop light to stop light.

Thats the best i can come up with for my 400 dollar budget. So my total investment in the cars mods will be about 600 dollars.

Should be quite fun, my chassis is already one ofd the best handlers in the world, it just needs a little more power to back it up.

So I'll say it to evil t/a again in the most respectful way possible, please please please dont spread ignorance about an induction system your not that familar with. All this leads to is people butchering a car and spending more money and doing more work to get to a goal they could of easily accomplished before hand.

[edit]

one more thing i want to add, you mentioned the only way to get 320 hp is by using a 380hp engine. Maybe thats true to some extent, so what do you do then. You spend a grand on a miniram? 1300 on a super ram? What if you dont have 1300. Ok how about a tpi system for 500, well even if you have 500, your no better off than a ported crossfire and out 500 bucks. Ok a carb you say they're cheap, they also illegal if you require emission testing. Not too mention another 200-400 dollars for the parts required to convert. So in alot of cases the only choice, or even most effective choice when cost is factored in the to work with what you have..sure you give up some power, but you gain some torque, and we all know torque is more fun on the street.

Last edited by nsimmons; May 14, 2002 at 03:14 PM.
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Old May 14, 2002 | 04:11 PM
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First off , my car is already in the high 13's at a little over 100 mph on a slipping converter . I will gladly show you my tailights if you want. So know this , I am already faster than you.


About that gasket matching maybe if you actually LOOKED at your manifold instead of linking pictures you would know that the WHOLE PORT is that size and you gain 0 in airflow from it in fact in the picture you posted maybe you should look at that gasket matched port , do you see the lip at the bottom that is where it stops therefore the port is still 75% the size of the head port . It is like putting a section of fire hose at the end of a garden hose. You gain nothing. They grinded up not in , the only reason that section of manifold is there in the first place is to seal of the rest of the head port from the lifter valley. Try again.


As for my induction swap ONLY gaining 4 tenths wrong , I gained more than that the four tenths was right off the bat , no experimenting with the timing , no cold air induction , no chip and with a BONE STOCK QJET with stock rods and hanger. It got faster from there. In fact it took only 1 day , it isnt hard to swap manifolds , computers and throttle and tv cables.


Instead of taking everything that you have heard as gospel maybe you should look a little more closely at your manifold .

Taking out the slipping converter as a factor my engine puts out 322 horsepower and 388 torque at the flywheel this is using 18% loss to the rearwheels with an auto transmission.


And lastly you are the one speading ignorance , CFI is the worse for of induction put on a v8 thirdgen ...period . Telling people otherwise is misleading. TPI , Carbs and the later TBIs all flow better and have more potential.

Do you have any dyno numbers from your car? A picture of it on the dyno would be nice .

Last edited by evil t/a; May 14, 2002 at 04:14 PM.
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Old May 14, 2002 | 04:18 PM
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I will say this , if I had an 84 Vette I would probobly Mod the CFI instead of switching also.
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Old May 14, 2002 | 05:52 PM
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Originally posted by evil t/a
First off , my car is already in the high 13's at a little over 100 mph on a slipping converter . I will gladly show you my tailights if you want. So know this , I am already faster than you.
i was talking about the 305 running 15.3 now your comparing a mods to mods which there is no point in doing. I know of a 10 sec pinto close to me..what does that prove nothing.



About that gasket matching maybe if you actually LOOKED at your manifold instead of linking pictures you would know that the WHOLE PORT is that size
Gee i've never looked at the manifold? how do you think i ported it..wishful thinking? How do you know thats not my picture.


and you gain 0 in airflow from it


WRONG! you gain 22cfm on average from just gasket matching, thats a fact those are numbers of the crossfire vault admin's flow bench. If there was no gain from porting why did grumpy waste all his time modifying it.


in fact in the picture you posted maybe you should look at that gasket matched port , do you see the lip at the bottom that is where it stops therefore the port is still 75% the size of the head port . It is like putting a section of fire hose at the end of a garden hose. You gain nothing. They grinded up not in , the only reason that section of manifold is there in the first place is to seal of the rest of the head port from the lifter valley. Try again.


Then why have all these dozens of crossfire owner knocked an average of 0.5 a second of they're 1/4 mile. Myself included.


Instead of taking everything that you have heard as gospel maybe you should look a little more closely at your manifold .


I think you got us backwards here buddy, i spent 15 hours looking enough at my manifold, while i worked on it and reinstalled it, and have worked on my induction enough to know what it can and cant do. You on the other did no work on it, and are just about spouting hate. If you had done alot of work on it trying to make power, and gained nothing, then maybe you would have some ground to stand on, but you dont, your full of it.


Taking out the slipping converter as a factor my engine puts out 322 horsepower and 388 torque at the flywheel this is using 18% loss to the rearwheels with an auto transmission.


Thats it? Im not impressed. I expected you to have some blown 383 that needed 1000cfm of air.

Thats well with in a crossfires abilities and you even gave up a good 40ftlbs. So let me add this up..more work, more money, less mileage, worse emissions, worse throttle response, worse drivibility, alot less torque!?. Dont tell me your using a computer controlled qjet..good move there at least use a decent carb.
Some people cant just slap on a carb and be done with it.




And lastly you are the one speading ignorance , CFI is the worse for of induction put on a v8 thirdgen ...period . Telling people otherwise is misleading. TPI , Carbs and the later TBIs all flow better and have more potential.


They all have more potential? How much hp can you get out of a crossfire, approx 330, how much out of a tpi, approx 330, later tbi the same damn size as the crossfire. A qjet, slightly modified will flow 800cfm, so it has the potential to make the most power, but a carb? talk about a step backwards..how about mechanical brakes while Im at it.

What you dont seem to get is a cross ram makes more torque than a carb and so if you do it right, you dont need to spin it really high to make the same power.


Do you have any dyno numbers from your car? A picture of it on the dyno would be nice .


what do i need a dyno sheet for, stock it ran 15 now it runs 14.3 for 100 bucks, its as fast early tpi's and will be faster soon enough, with what im willing to spend on it. I've owned many a fbody with various carb's and fuel injection, im well aware of the pro's and cons of each.

Is the crossfire the worst induction system ever on an fbody. No way, the dual tbi is, and even it isnt really bad. They have the same air flow capacity. The crossfire makes more torque.

Is it better than tpi, certainly not, is it significantly worse..not by a long shot. Stock tpi caps at 4500, cfi 4200, big deal 300rpm.

Is it better than a carb, yes, in ever way possible except for peak power output. You'd be a fool to dispute that.

I tried to be respectful, and give people all the options before they make a choice, you want an 11 second drag car hell yeah use a carb. You want to be able to roast mustangs, stick with what you got. You just jump in, its crap, it was always crap, it will always be crap. With no real basis for that opinion. You never attempted anything and failed.

Answer me at least this? By what reason do you attribute the fact that its crap? by the low time it ran stock?

So by that logic my 79 z28's qjet is crap because it ran 16s, but wait? I thought air flow was a magic bullet that fixed everything?
Its got an 800cfm carb on it, how come its not fast.

Grumpy doesnt think it complete crap with no potential, his car isnt even really maxed out, and the poor little crossfire is faster, and knowing the tuning guru he is i guarantee is more streetable in every aspect.

I've had enough time arguing with a narrow minded fool with no experience. Ive worked and modied cars with carbs, tpi, tbi, cfi. You never modified a crossfire you have no basis to make claims.

Show me one heavily modified crossfire thats slow..just one..You cant, because they dont exist. Once you remove the factory flaws its a chevy small block and it responds to all the tricks people have been doing for 40 years. Its really quite simple if you design the engine properly. What you dont have is rpm's so you build a motor with alot of torque, and since hp is a function of torque the more lower end torque you make the more power you get.

Why cant you just admit, its possible, it may not be for everyone but its possible and not that difficult. Isnt the true purpose of hot rodding tweaking what you have, not just buying dyno proven parts. If that was the point we'd all save ourselves alot of time and effort and buy an ls1.

Like all things it has a limit, if that limit suits you, great, if not by all means do something else.

I invite everone else with a crossfire or any car for that matter with an open mind who likes real hotrodding, to click on the link in my first post and join us on the crossfire forum.

Last edited by nsimmons; May 14, 2002 at 06:37 PM.
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Old May 14, 2002 | 07:05 PM
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First off where is it proven that CFI has I higher torque output? Just because it runs out of air early doesnt mean that it has more torque it may just make it at a lower rpm. I gave up 40 foot pounds of torque ? What basis do you have for that statement? Dyno tests? I thought not.

I listed my times because you called me out

Hell even grumpy has his cfi third gen with 320hp, im pretty sure he could roast your car.

Im not looking to start a crossfire versus the world fight. All i asked was you not spred ignorance about the induction, i even said please. Owning one doesnt give you experience, modifying it does. Ive done about all the cheap and inexpensive mods you can do to just the induction and my car will easily out run yours with your gears and exhaust, and your other mods.






Remeber?

I am not impressed with them either but I am still faster than you?


Throttle response? My engine has perfect throttle response , starts up with the first 1/2 crank of the engine and has great low end turque and a power peak at 6100 rpm. Any car that has bad or iffy throttle response is due to the tuner , not the induction system . You need to learn a little about carbs. Those old wives tales just show plain ignorance about them.

You make all of these statements but yet have nothing to back them up.




Oh yeah , so you are saying that just removing that little lip at each port gains you 22 cfm and knocks .5 seconds of your E.T?

And you are also saying that TPI is not really any better than CFI?
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Old May 14, 2002 | 07:45 PM
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Originally posted by evil t/a
First off where is it proven that CFI has I higher torque output?

Basic engine theory, crossrams develop way more torque that dual or single plane manifolds. Tpi accomplishes the same thing with longer runners.


Just because it runs out of air early doesnt mean that it has more torque it may just make it at a lower rpm. I gave up 40 foot pounds of torque ? What basis do you have for that statement? Dyno tests? I thought not.


based on dominic sorreso's dyno test's, he frequents here and im sure he can supply with with a dyno sheet, his drive train loss works out to show about 320hp 425ftlbs at the flywheel. Ive seen the curve its pretty much flat, his hp peak is lower than he'd like because his injectors went static and leaned the mixture, he's since corrected this but hast had it tested since.


I listed my times because you called me out
I am not impressed with them either but I am still faster than you?

once again coparing mods to mods, whats the point, my friend who lives a few miles from me has an xfire with a zz4 that'll work an lt1, what does that prove.


Throttle response? My engine has perfect throttle response , starts up with the first 1/2 crank of the engine and has great low end turque and a power peak at 6100 rpm. Any car that has bad or iffy throttle response is due to the tuner , not the induction system . You need to learn a little about carbs. Those old wives tales just show plain ignorance about them.


A carb cant compete with a propely tuned injection system, you can either have it setup for peak power or good street manners, not both. Its a compromise between the too, especially in your case with a rather agressive cam. Electronic injection can. The fact that my last 3 fbodies had qjets which irebuilt and tweaked i know a little about hangers and metering rods..


Oh yeah , so you are saying that just removing that little lip at each port gains you 22 cfm and knocks .5 seconds of your E.T?


yes exactly, this is really simple to follow. Its called deductive reasoning.

heres where you might be confused, 22cfm per port, its not like i went from a 500cfm carb to a 522cfm carb and knocked off half a second

The 84 corvette has 205hp and runs on average 15 flat. The 85 corvette has the exact same long block the only differece is the tpi. it has 235hp and runs on average 14.5. Now when you port the crossfire you match the tpi's air flow. As proven by flow results. Now these cars start running consistant 14.3's-14.6, go to corvetteforum.com call out crossfire owners with ported intake, they'll confirm the 0.5 second drop.

So now you have the exact same engine, identicle air flow, and near identicle times(every case is different and tpis should edge out because of the point injection). So by deduction you can state that the cars now have (or at least very close) equal power. Which also means you can state anything a stock induction tpi can do a modded cfi can also do. I've been following the tests over the last 6 months by crossfire forum members and contributed with my own data where applicable. I believe dominic also dyno'd around 190hp before his serious mods. Around what the 85 tpi would do.


And you are also saying that TPI is not really any better than CFI?
Absolutley not, tpi is far superior. dry flow, point injection it does a better job of metering fuel. As such it will produce slightly more power than a wet flow system such as the crossfire or carb will. But since the flow rates are identicle between the tpi and modded xfire, most people would find it a waste of time and effort to swap to a stock tpi. One thing i will give the carb is that sound it makes when the secondaries open.

Have i convinced you its not total crap yet? Im really trying here my fingers are sore.

I think maybe you took my you dont know anything about a crossfire as you dont know anything about cars. If you did i apologize, but the fact that you keep insisting its useless does show you dont know as much as you think you do about an xfire. Thats not an insult, dont take it as one.

Question:
With a power peak of 6100rpm it sounds to me like your car is setup a little more strip than street. A cam required to make a peak that high would definitley subtract from low end. I have 300ftlbs on tap from just off idle to 4k.

What kind of numbers torque wise do you make from idle to the peak? do you have a dyno sheet you could post?

Last edited by nsimmons; May 14, 2002 at 07:49 PM.
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Old May 14, 2002 | 08:00 PM
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Car: 82 Corvette
Engine: 350 CrossFire
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:lala:

*counting down the days to driving Dom's monster machine in Bowling Green and meeting Grumpy* ....

Eight..........

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Old May 14, 2002 | 08:26 PM
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From: Langley, BC, Canada
howdy ken..nice to see you here..I give up on this guy. No fair, i wanna drive dom's car too
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Old May 14, 2002 | 08:52 PM
  #21  
Ken73's Avatar
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From: Houston, TX
Car: 82 Corvette
Engine: 350 CrossFire
Transmission: 700R4
Actually I'm not sure if I'll drive it or not - I haven't driven a manual in probably 10 years. I don't want to break his car! I'm actually more excited about meeting him and meeting Grumpy on Sunday.

What's fun is I still have even more tricks up my sleeve..
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Old May 15, 2002 | 12:43 AM
  #22  
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From: south jordan, utah
nsimmons u r the man!!!!!

n simmons i just got done reading ur posts and damn man u knwo a **** load about the cfi!
i wanna know how to take that .5 sec off my 1/4
and evil t/a u need to pull ur head out ull breath better!
my cars mods r!
83 cfi runs stock 17.0 supposibly at a low altitude
well i live in utah with over 3800 feet above sea level and i am pulling 14.5 at Rocky Mountain Raceway
"slightly" modified.....
hooker headers 1 5/8
cusotm y pipe
high flow cat 3 inch
3 inch exhaust
80 series muffler 3 inch in 2 1/2 out
3.73 richmond gears and new eaton posi
700 r4 with vette servo
trans go shift kit
advanced timing
removed all smog crap
removed a/c compressor and all that stuff
moroso blue max wires
bosch plat 4
kand n filter of course
accel super coil
accel cap and rotor
180 degree stat
stage 2 jet chip
a brand new 305 with 18 k on it
and a 210 degree cam in it with 9.6 compression ratio
thats what i mean when i say slighty modded T/A!
so all ur 16 second talk u can throw out the window cause its all
nsimmons ur hella awesome most people dont stick up for the xfire thanxs all of us appreciate it a ton, these induction systems are way underestimated. u've told me more about xfire in ur last posts then i have found on this system in the last 6 months!
thanxs again
jesse
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Old May 15, 2002 | 01:02 AM
  #23  
evil t/a's Avatar
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From: mission hills ,ca
Originally posted by nsimmons

Basic engine theory, crossrams develop way more torque that dual or single plane manifolds. Tpi accomplishes the same thing with longer runners.

[/b]

based on dominic sorreso's dyno test's, he frequents here and im sure he can supply with with a dyno sheet, his drive train loss works out to show about 320hp 425ftlbs at the flywheel. Ive seen the curve its pretty much flat, his hp peak is lower than he'd like because his injectors went static and leaned the mixture, he's since corrected this but hast had it tested since.

[/b]
once again coparing mods to mods, whats the point, my friend who lives a few miles from me has an xfire with a zz4 that'll work an lt1, what does that prove.

[/b]

A carb cant compete with a propely tuned injection system, you can either have it setup for peak power or good street manners, not both. Its a compromise between the too, especially in your case with a rather agressive cam. Electronic injection can. The fact that my last 3 fbodies had qjets which irebuilt and tweaked i know a little about hangers and metering rods..

[/b]

yes exactly, this is really simple to follow. Its called deductive reasoning.

heres where you might be confused, 22cfm per port, its not like i went from a 500cfm carb to a 522cfm carb and knocked off half a second

The 84 corvette has 205hp and runs on average 15 flat. The 85 corvette has the exact same long block the only differece is the tpi. it has 235hp and runs on average 14.5. Now when you port the crossfire you match the tpi's air flow. As proven by flow results. Now these cars start running consistant 14.3's-14.6, go to corvetteforum.com call out crossfire owners with ported intake, they'll confirm the 0.5 second drop.

So now you have the exact same engine, identicle air flow, and near identicle times(every case is different and tpis should edge out because of the point injection). So by deduction you can state that the cars now have (or at least very close) equal power. Which also means you can state anything a stock induction tpi can do a modded cfi can also do. I've been following the tests over the last 6 months by crossfire forum members and contributed with my own data where applicable. I believe dominic also dyno'd around 190hp before his serious mods. Around what the 85 tpi would do.



Absolutley not, tpi is far superior. dry flow, point injection it does a better job of metering fuel. As such it will produce slightly more power than a wet flow system such as the crossfire or carb will. But since the flow rates are identicle between the tpi and modded xfire, most people would find it a waste of time and effort to swap to a stock tpi. One thing i will give the carb is that sound it makes when the secondaries open.

Have i convinced you its not total crap yet? Im really trying here my fingers are sore.

I think maybe you took my you dont know anything about a crossfire as you dont know anything about cars. If you did i apologize, but the fact that you keep insisting its useless does show you dont know as much as you think you do about an xfire. Thats not an insult, dont take it as one.

Question:
With a power peak of 6100rpm it sounds to me like your car is setup a little more strip than street. A cam required to make a peak that high would definitley subtract from low end. I have 300ftlbs on tap from just off idle to 4k.

What kind of numbers torque wise do you make from idle to the peak? do you have a dyno sheet you could post? [/B]

When you match the TPI's airflow are you forgetting that TPI only has to move air through its runners?


Yes I do have a couple of dyno sheets that I can post and I will get them up in the morning . I also have videos if you want to see them. I posted the a while ago on nethirdgen , and 3rdgen.org if you want to do a search you might be able to find them.

But if you are through with me then I wont bother. My car is not a strip car and the cam is milder than it used to be, I am running the lt4 hot cam.

Last edited by evil t/a; May 15, 2002 at 01:16 AM.
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Old May 15, 2002 | 01:10 AM
  #24  
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Let me ask you a question simmons.

What i'm trying to do is to make my 82 ta just kick *** without dumping loads of money into it.

My Dad and I resurrected this car from a Tow Yard. We started replacing thing here and there, but now i'm wanting to improve.

Across the street, this guy bought a crate 350 and put 305 heads in it. He slapped the CFI unit on as well as Flowmasters and a 4 speed turbo AT. He ran into a poll in the rain and bent the car up pretty bad. He is selling the 350 with the CFI unit for 1200 bucks.

If you were me, would you buy this engine or stick with rebuilding a 305 with 142K miles in good condition and leaks here and there?

...and thanks for the great info on the CFI!
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Old May 15, 2002 | 01:12 AM
  #25  
evil t/a's Avatar
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From: mission hills ,ca
Re: nsimmons u r the man!!!!!

Originally posted by jesse83cfi
n simmons i just got done reading ur posts and damn man u knwo a **** load about the cfi!
i wanna know how to take that .5 sec off my 1/4
and evil t/a u need to pull ur head out ull breath better!
my cars mods r!
83 cfi runs stock 17.0 supposibly at a low altitude
well i live in utah with over 3800 feet above sea level and i am pulling 14.5 at Rocky Mountain Raceway
"slightly" modified.....
hooker headers 1 5/8
cusotm y pipe
high flow cat 3 inch
3 inch exhaust
80 series muffler 3 inch in 2 1/2 out
3.73 richmond gears and new eaton posi
700 r4 with vette servo
trans go shift kit
advanced timing
removed all smog crap
removed a/c compressor and all that stuff
moroso blue max wires
bosch plat 4
kand n filter of course
accel super coil
accel cap and rotor
180 degree stat
stage 2 jet chip
a brand new 305 with 18 k on it
and a 210 degree cam in it with 9.6 compression ratio
thats what i mean when i say slighty modded T/A!
so all ur 16 second talk u can throw out the window cause its all
nsimmons ur hella awesome most people dont stick up for the xfire thanxs all of us appreciate it a ton, these induction systems are way underestimated. u've told me more about xfire in ur last posts then i have found on this system in the last 6 months!
thanxs again
jesse


I think I figured out what you were trying to say and lets see if I got it right. You are saying that a untouched CFI 305 with a mild cam , no head work and 3.73's runs 14.5 at 3800 feet? thats aboyt 13.7 at sea level if I am correct. Dude sorry I am going to have to call on this , from the way that you actually worded your post I am guessing that you are really young and dont know enough not to lie in a forum that is full of people smart enough to rip it apart.

Ricers do that.

Last edited by evil t/a; May 15, 2002 at 01:24 AM.
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Old May 15, 2002 | 01:27 AM
  #26  
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From: south jordan, utah
its just what she runs

this week or next ill have a recent time slip since i havent ran her since last september.
if u think im lieing come to RMR and watch me do it
i might be young but i know enough to "get me by"
sorta like that "slightly" modified thing
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Old May 15, 2002 | 01:29 AM
  #27  
evil t/a's Avatar
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From: mission hills ,ca
How far is that track from SLC?
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Old May 15, 2002 | 01:29 AM
  #28  
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From: Langley, BC, Canada
jessie,
thats damn respectable for the elevation, with the cam higher compression and the exhaust work, its begging for a port job on the intake, quite possibly you'd break 13's. People dont understand, these engines make alot of torque, so they have great 330 ft times and can pull good et's with relativley low mph.
The crossfire doesnt have the hp to pull big mph, but it f*ucking flies out of the hole.

For example heres some time slips from relativeley stock 84 vette, the only mods internally are 1.6 rockers ran a 12.5 on a 125 shot, he hasnt even touched the induction yet.

[edit]
jezz wrong time slip, heres the right one.


Compare that to a 340-350hp lt4 94 vette than can run 12.9's with a very skilled drive at 108-109mph. That crossfire is making alot of power more than the 125 adverstised shot.

and evil t/a fuel flow causes a 7% difference in cfm numbers, which was already accounted for.

Last edited by nsimmons; May 15, 2002 at 01:57 AM.
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Old May 15, 2002 | 01:46 AM
  #29  
jesse83cfi's Avatar
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Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 60
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From: south jordan, utah
nsimmons
i wanna run a 125 hp shot of n20 on my new motor but i dont know if the seals will handle the n20!
man i wish u could help me out on my xfire
i got so much i wanna do to it still
evil t/a the track is out on frontage road i think off of 5600 west and about 1500 south or something like that!
hopefully ill be their next wednesday for the test and tune!
my exhaust mods have done miracles for my car
but what can u expect when u spent 1k on the exhuast alone?
nsimmons u r bad ***
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Old May 15, 2002 | 01:48 AM
  #30  
evil t/a's Avatar
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From: mission hills ,ca
Re: i suggest not changing to a 350 to much of a hassle!

Originally posted by jesse83cfi
my 1/4 i could guess would be about 14.3-14.5 for my car but that is not with a good cam or heads, so their still is alot left to mod!
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Old May 15, 2002 | 01:54 AM
  #31  
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From: Langley, BC, Canada
cfita, based on your original post asking about the manifold and your handle i'll assume your running a crossfire right now.

This is what i would do, if i had about 1500 to spend. First find out if his manifold has balancer holes, if it does buy it off him, also get the injectors from his tbi's they're larger than yours and dont mix them up, they are specific front to rear.

Now for this crate 350, where did he buy it from? Whats it specs, whats its cam, it could be a deal. Putting 305 heads on it wasnt such a good idea, the compression will be pretty high and its got tiny little valves.

Little known secret right now, is the gm goodwrench budget 350 engine. Its 1100 dollars rated at 190hp, but they dyno in the 230hp range stock. You get an entirely new engine 4 bolt mains.

Then what you do is put in a summit cam for 70 bucks, and do a port job on the iron heads, this little engine responds awesome to port work and a hotter cam. The compression is 8.5 with the factory heads, you can have them milled, or maybe being able to burn regular is more what your after. You shold obtain hp in the 275 range, 350ftlbs torque. I dunno, thats pretty good for a daily driver and what im aiming for.

For the real trick setup, get a set of trick flow aluminum heads, or source out a pair of aluminum l98 vette heads. They'll give you a 10:1 compression. I can also supply you with a excellent article on porting them. Sell the crate engines heads and cam for a what ever you can get. And you'll have a good solid 325hp engine for just over a grand.

Then for the induction i would completly grind the whole intake, there are good articles on the crossfire forum explaining it. And have your throttle bodies punched out. Find a shop that works on snow mobiles or bikes that can bore the housings to 2"s and get some throttle plates. That'll give you 650cfm, and will make at least 300hp, probably more with tweaking.

That is of course if you have that money to spend. Remember the cheapest way to do things is work with what you have. You already have a decent 305 and a crossfire setup. 250hp out of it is well within reach and easily obtainable. Head work, headers exhaust a cam, intake grinding, i'll esitmate 5-600 dollars. You'll be able to out run l98 350 fbodies then.

Talk it over with your dad and decide how fast you want to and can afford to go, you could do up the 305 and spend the extra 600 bucks on juice and blow the doors off every mustang around

btw my engine has the same mileage, I bought a felpro gasket kit off ebay, which showed up yesterday. Cost 35 bucks, every gasket i could want and awesome quality. I'll be replacing every seal and stopping all the leaks. My car also doesnt burn any oil and doesnt make any funny sounds. Im pretty sure the valve seals are worn, but new ones where in the kit. It would be a good idea to do a compression test on the 305 and make sure its solid. 305's are ragged on almost as bad as a crossfire, but they can certainly make decent power.

Last edited by nsimmons; May 15, 2002 at 02:16 AM.
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Old May 15, 2002 | 02:02 AM
  #32  
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From: Langley, BC, Canada
jessie yes exhaust does wonders for the 305's kinda weird actually, whats your compression on the motor? what you need to worry about is detonation and running lean. Knocking will crack pistons and running lean will melt them.

If you get a proper n20 setup with a fuel pressure cut of switch, incase you start to lean out, a window switch to active after 3000rpm, retard your timing and run the highest octane you can find you should be perfectly safe.

btw the time slip i posted was the wrong one , i fixed it now, 2 seconds quicker

Last edited by nsimmons; May 15, 2002 at 02:05 AM.
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Old May 15, 2002 | 05:17 AM
  #33  
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From: Enschede, Netherlands
Car: 82 TA 87 IZ L98 88 IZ LB9 88 IZ L98
Engine: 5.7TBI 5,7TPI 5.0TPI, 5,7TPI
Transmission: T5, 700R4, T5, 700R4
Axle/Gears: 3.08, 3.27, 3.45, 3.27
Originally posted by evil t/a
I am not impressed with them either but I am still faster than you?

There will always be someone faster than you! Wanna race?



The thing IS a crossram! All out it's over 1000Hp of 4 dual carbed, individual runner, twin turbocharged dual intercooled can of whoopass!

I had a CFI before this and wasted EVERY TPI in my club.. and it wasn't even close!

An LT4 hotcam on a carb? Man.. that's some serious wasted power w/ that amount of seperation& overlap!

Marck

Last edited by Twin_Turbo; May 15, 2002 at 05:21 AM.
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Old May 15, 2002 | 06:19 AM
  #34  
JoBy's Avatar
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From: Timrå, Sweden
Car: 1984 Corvette
Engine: Turbo 350
Transmission: 4L80E with TCI T-Com
LOL Marck!

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Old May 15, 2002 | 10:22 AM
  #35  
evil t/a's Avatar
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From: mission hills ,ca
Originally posted by FAQman


There will always be someone faster than you! Wanna race?



The thing IS a crossram! All out it's over 1000Hp of 4 dual carbed, individual runner, twin turbocharged dual intercooled can of whoopass!

I had a CFI before this and wasted EVERY TPI in my club.. and it wasn't even close!

An LT4 hotcam on a carb? Man.. that's some serious wasted power w/ that amount of seperation& overlap!

Marck

Actually i went from a 230 @.050 480 lift 106 cam to the LT$ hot cam in order to mover my powerband down and enable me to pass emissions if I ever have to. Plus having power brakes again after 3 years is pretty nice.
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Old May 15, 2002 | 11:53 AM
  #36  
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From: Enschede, Netherlands
Car: 82 TA 87 IZ L98 88 IZ LB9 88 IZ L98
Engine: 5.7TBI 5,7TPI 5.0TPI, 5,7TPI
Transmission: T5, 700R4, T5, 700R4
Axle/Gears: 3.08, 3.27, 3.45, 3.27
Maybe you should have opted for a hydrobooster instead

Marck
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Old May 15, 2002 | 04:41 PM
  #37  
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From: Oklahoma City Metro
Car: 1983 25th Anny Daytona 500 T/A
Engine: Stock...inoperative... 305
Transmission: Automatic
Good, bad, otherwise... I like my Crossfire Trans Am!


And, if I ever get finished rebuilding the car, I'm gonna play around with making the CFI work better... someday.
Rob
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Old May 15, 2002 | 05:17 PM
  #38  
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From: Langley, BC, Canada
nice to see marck and jonas pull out the big guns...turbos and blowers oh my!
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Old May 15, 2002 | 08:31 PM
  #39  
evil t/a's Avatar
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From: mission hills ,ca
Originally posted by ops32
Good, bad, otherwise... I like my Crossfire Trans Am!


And, if I ever get finished rebuilding the car, I'm gonna play around with making the CFI work better... someday.
Rob

Look familiar?
http://www.webphotos.com/list_photos...&smi=1&a=32205

Last edited by evil t/a; May 15, 2002 at 08:38 PM.
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