Ok, I've finally got a pretty good idea of what I want to do with the car, in other words, I know what I want out of it and think I have a good idea of how to get it there.

My question for everyone, especially those who have done similar things, is, which of these would you do first. The 3.42 will be done before either of these. They'd both cost about the same I think, the way I've got things figured.

1. Swap in a t5. The auto is pretty worn out, I want a 5 speed, and it'll be faster once I'm better at it. I'll get plenty of practice since its a 7 days a week car I put about 800 miles a month on.

2. Piece together a new super-budget motor consisting of rebuilt roller 305 shotblock with about 10:1 squeeze, LT1 cam, polished TPI heads, Edelbrock TBI intake, and a worked over TBI unit. Should be good for everyday use, its cheap, and won't take much computer work. It should be strong enough to do what I want.

I would just put the motor stuff on my current motor, but its pretty high milage and I'd rather not extend its RPM range and stuff. Not to mention the oil burning not only on startup, but any time I punch it. I can't have the car down for more than a day or 2, its my only car. I want to get into 14s, already have good posi just for the record. I'm not bent on running a certain number, its just thats a better example of the power I'm looking for than throwing out a HP number as a goal.


This probably won't happen until spring of next year, and I plan on doing both. Its just a matter of which one first. Thanks for any responses! I usually don't get many, mabye people don't like reading posts this long.

 

What are you calling high miles? I'm doing that stuff now and mine has 101K on it. Is your smoke from the bottom end or is it from the leaking heads? If the rings are good I think I might do the engine stuff first.

Either of those things could take more than a couple days.

 

do them both at the same time. Since the engine sounds like the rings are shot, if its smoking when you punch it, the engine is the priority But its alot easier to pull the engine and tranny as a unit and get them both done at once. Besides if you build up a new engine that auto will probably crap out right away.

Put the pedals and hydraulics in the car and get it ready for the stick.

Build up your new engine on a stand and bolt then 5 spd too it. Then once you've triple checked that you have everything you need. Have a 2 day marathon, it should only take about 2 hours to pull the engine and tranny, another 3 or 4 to install the new engine and tranny, hook up the clutch, cut out the floor other misc. things.

Then you have an entire day to figure out why it wont start

 

well dave....maybe if I can get that 383 and 6 speed soon enough, you could buy my engine (in great shape, but some miles) and have it redone to your liking while still driving your car around, that would cut down on down time, and wouldn't cost very much.


I think nsimmons has a good point with the "other going out", but if you must decide I'd do the engine first, she kinda smokes.


actually I should help you get that last smog bolt out FIRST

 

Thats the thing, I'm not really sure. It could be one or the other or both. I'd like to do a compression test on all the cyls, I've heard that is at least a step in the right direction as far as troubleshooting rings. Plus I'm not sure of the condition of my timing chain n stuff, I don't know how long factory ones last.

About 1/2 hour after I posted this, I started thinking about doing both at the same time actually, I wish I'd made that a 3rd option. You know, I could probably even hang the pedals a day or 2 before "The Project" starts and just have the clutch cable not do anything to save time.


But yeah, building the motor on a stand and having it as complete as possible before it goes in was the plan, and since its not much of an alteration from stock it shouldn't be all that difficult. Doin the tranny then does make the most sense, because getting it old out/new in and bolted to the motor sounds like half the work anyway, why do it twice? We could maybe start this on a friday and have it drivable by monday.

-thinking-

 

I'd do the engine first, she kinda smokes
---------------------------------------------------

Haha yeah you guys all got to see it smoke yesterday didn't ya! Its quite a poof on startup, and people who follow me tell me it does that at WOT too. Ask Allen, he got to see my taillights several times trying to pass me yesterday

And yeah Vic, something like that is what I was planning on doin, when somone pulls their motor, grab it and rebuild it. I wanna stay in the newer year motors so I don't run into issues with accesories and stuff like that, plus its a roller block.

I can't belive oil was the only thing I could smoke yesterday... that was embarassing not even being able to break the tires loose powerbreaking. I guess its a combination of good posi unit, hot blacktop, and hot sticky tires from sitting in the direct sunlight all day not moving. Not that the cars all that powerful either...

 

ah don't worry about it, it was weight really, happened to me a couple times, well....actaully I was rolling about 5 mph, but still, it normally would break them loose


hey dave, do you have a messenger or anything, I talk to most of the other guys: chris, mark, mike, allen.....NJ Speeder sometimes (the *** of the lo3) :hail:

 

i broke them loose and power braked in a stick... surprised many ppl with the 2 140 foot marks... i gotta question... I did the powerbraking thing but only left one mark both times. But when i spin the tires in the gravel i leave 2 (both wheels spin). How do i know if i ahve aposi or not? i know it didnt come with one form the factory. doesnt have the option.

 

if you only left one wheel mark on pavement you have an open rear,

the best way to know is to jack up the rear end (tires off the ground) and spin one wheel, watch the otherside wheel, if it spins the opposite direction then you have an open rear, same = posi

 

but why woukld both have spun in the gravel then?

 

the power goes to the wheel with the least resistance, in gravel there is low resistance so both will spin, SOMETIMES my rear will "hook up" and leave 2 black marks, but I still have an open rear.

 

Look at your RPO codes and see if you have the G80 option. Thats the easy way to tell.

In a low trac situation like gravel, they'll usually both spin no matter what. I guess I did have 2 other guys in the car too, and a trunk full of cookout stuff. That probably didn't help either. But I know my posi does work! Maybe If I'd had a 1 wheel I'd have left a mark.

Vic- Dumpunk999 is my AOL/AIM name, I'm on quite a bit, IM me anytime you want and feel free to give it to anyone else on here.

BTW - the page is up!

 

cool, you're added

for those of you who would like to ask me questions, or just talk:
aol: vicV8rs91
yahoo: vic_v8, also email address
MSN: vic_v8_says

btw: streetracer, how is the smog thing going?

 

Dave-I would do the engine first since it is obviously showing the most signs of wear. Have Terry build you a 305. He wants to do one. That way you can also make payments on it.

While giving out info:
Email:stacysguy@hotmail.com
IM:StacysManMike

Later

 

as long as traction is balanced to both tires, an open rear end will do a 2 tire peel. Change the traction on 1 and immediately you get the 1 wheel peel. A posi, as much as it is hailed, still can do a 1 wheel peel, I've seen it done with strong motors/weak suspension, and hence the term "limited slip differential". The only ones I've seen strong enough to prevent 1 wheel is full lock differentials and single axle differentials. A full lock is what it sounds, it locks the axles together when traction differs but does so with a best described as a gear set. (this differes from a posi in that a posi using springs/clutch packs to even it out) A single axle is just that, its a differential that connects the 1 axle to the other.

Since you are burning at WOT, odds are rings are going/gone. I know, I've already gone thru this with my own engine. A compression tester can be had for around $30 I got mine for $50 go figure. Its a simple test, although the passenger side is murder if you have A/C. When cold, you should get 0.2-0.3 more than the stock rated compression. Anything lower than 0.5 off stock and you are losing it bad. I used to have smoke on startup and WOT/heavy loads. A ring change, some blueprinting and my engine was putting out stock numbers at the rear wheels instead of the flywheel.

I agree with most people on this board that go with do both at the same time. They're both gonna come out, might as well do both then and there. A new engine, even a lowly LO3 will rip to shreds a barely functional tranny. The added resistance by a T-5 on an oil burning engine will destroy it, since under load/WOT is when you get the smoke. The only logical choice is do both.

 

sticks are not quicker than autos, they produce more mph because they are a more efficiant system, but with equal suspension under each car an auto will get out of the hole much better and shift more quickly than any stick car that still uses a clutch for every shift. it does not matter how much practice you get or how it "feels", an auto has been proven over and over to be quicker. that having been said, sticks are tons more fun to drive. and since you will spend most of your lie cruising along you shoudl try to get as much enjoyment as you can out of each mile.
if you engien is completely beat, i woudl worry about that first. it doesn't matter what tranny the car has sitting in the driveway.

later
tim

 

isn't a t-5 about a 100 lbs lighter than an 700r4? I think pablo said that

 

Yep thats what I've heard too, not only on here but on the mustang sites I used to go to.

Tim is right about the auto thing as far as all out acceleration. I always tell people the same thing, even world class drivers can't shift as fast as a good auto. Unfortunately my auto is pretty beat! And since I only make 2-3 trips to the track a year, and I drive it everywhere everyday...

"that having been said, sticks are tons more fun to drive. and since you will spend most of your lie cruising along you shoudl try to get as much enjoyment as you can out of each mile. "

Exactly what I'm thinkin.


I'm starting to think about just doing both at the same time. It'll be a whole lot easier.

 

But the manuals have one more gear to accelerate with.

 

It depends on your power level I think. At lower power levels the manual might out perform the auto, there is a turning point when the power is increased at which the auto will start to out perform the manual.

In a quarter mile you don't need more gears, you'll probably only use 3 gears on a stock engine.

 

I will agree with Keith on the "depends on the power level but there is a turning point" theory.

I've decided to just rebuild the 700R4 though. I spend a lot of time sitting in traffic, and down the road once I start upgrading the motor that isn't even built yet, being a 305 it'd be making too much torque for a T5 to safely hold anyway. Plus It will be less drastic modifications and less money. I'll just wait till my next car to get my stick I think.

 

Hello, In the last post you said that a T5 would not handle the 305 how much a t5 can handle? How much do you expect to make with your 305?

Just want to know, I was considering a t5 but probably will end geting a T56 from a 93 (I like those ratios more than latter model ones)

 

If everything else is exactly the same except the transmission a stick with a capable driver reaches the 1/4 mile mark first. Period.
This has been proven over and over again . Autos will give you a holeshot most of the time but in the end it really doesnt matter.
If you want to drag race then go with an auto they are more consisntent and can be built to handle more power than sticks
( moderate power levels).

Which is faster?
Mustang 5.0 79-present stick or auto
Thirdgen 305 TPI stick or auto
Thirdgen 305 tbi stick or auto
Lt1 4thgens stick or auto
Ls1 fourthgens stick or auto
Ls1 vettes stick or auto

 

Nope the REALLY fast cars use lencos and jerico transmission and the TOP fuel and Funny cars dont use auots either.

 

Like everyone has said do both at the same time if at all possible, but if one has to come before the other, and you are competant with a manual box hit the transmission first. If you aren't then just wait until you can do both because all you need is a to miss a gear and send the engine free wheeling at wot and its gone.

P.s. make sure that your pedals are firmly inplace and can't slip out and get stuck. I had a gas pedal do that on a manual and was suddenly pinging 8k (4cyl bmw).

 

Funny cars and Top fuel don't even have a real transmission

 

Funny cars do they use the Lenco and Jerico clutchless 5 speeds as stated above. Top Fuel use direct drive setups.

 

They type of funny car that Dean Scooza and John Force drive use the direct drive type setup.

 

Yep I think you should install a lenco or a direct drive on your street camaro, after all this is what the pros use.

Why is so difficult to stay on the subject of the post???

I whant a Manual, It weight 100lbs less than the Auto, is more efficient, you have more ratios to play with, you have more controll, you can get more milleage of it (mpg), its more fun, you dont have to worry about the exact converter to get the more out of it, and in a street car it will be faster.

Anyone here use a Lenco or direct drive on a street driven car?

That a T-5 or T-56 dont handle as much horsepower as a 700-r4 if you whant an auto that can handle street power at least he should be looking at a 800-R4 that can handle a lot of power.

 

What the hell are you talking about?

A. We were on subject , we were debating the merits of auto vs. stick.

B. A 700 is not as strong as a T56 and cannot handle as much horsepower or torque as a T56. That is a known fact. I dont really know where you got your info from because it is wrong.

C. There is no such as an "800r4" , theres is a 4l80 but it has nothing to do with a 700 , it is closer to the 400 .

 

Yeah, Ideally I'd put in a t56 but thats more $$ than I can afford to spend on the project right now.

Stick would be more fun and generally faster on the street, especially from a roll, but like I said, I have my reasons for keepin the auto. I'll get my 5 or 6 speed someday though. Just stickin with what I got for the time being.

 

lol 800r4 lol
hell add a B and M sticker or two to your car and it may help uthe tranny take more torque or maybe you should get a 1500r8 hell is got a higher numbers maybe it works better. man do some research before you try and act like u know what ur talking aobut. the T-56's are what is used in the vipers they have 500 lb ft of torque. of course they do have different syncros from the viper version and the camaro version.
ahhh T - 5 6 ahhh
juss the thought of a 6-speed makes me shiver.
well if u want a good torque handlin tranny get a allison 5-speed.
although its an auto

 

Warren Johnson I know 100% uses a Lenco clutchless 5 speed manual. Don't know about Dean and John, but I do remember on Popular Hot Rodding tv show, Dean Scooza was talking about shifting gears in his funny car. The fastest 1/4 machine in Japan (HKS 180SX - 7.72@176mph) uses a 5 speed manual with a clutch.

 

Ok ok make fun of my but someone understand what I wanted to say (When I was tipping the name of the other auto I was not shure about the name, damm the 700-R4 = to 4L60, the 4L60E is an electronic one and the stronger one is the 4L80).

Why a T5 will not be enought for a mild modded 305? Or you plan to make more horses than it could handle.

What I dont understand Is why to discuss about race transmission in a post that is about the order to make some mods to a mostly stock car? And the owner has stated that he dont intend to run at less than 14sec the 1/4 mile.

I understand the point some of you make about doing it all together the engine and transmission, that is logical.

Some make a point about wich would be better to rebuild the 700-r4 or change to a manual (mostly personal preferences).

But then the post deviate completely to something else, that is what im talking about.

If Im the only one that notice this and think that this detract the whole point of the post, sorry to disturb.

 

Nothing wrong with keeping your car auto , hell I have a 70 mile commute to work one way in LA traffic and doing that in a stick would be a pain.

 

If you want a manual go for that...because that's what you want and it's your car.

As to more mpg in a manual...mmm...on the highway yes...in the city I doubt it...because more people like to PLAY with manual and put their foot in it all the time even more than A4 crowd does.

In any case my RS with the 305 TBI and 700R4 has gotten a best mpg of 32.0 mpg on a 318 mile road trip. Usually, get 24-25 with my normal driving.

My LS1 T/A is a M6 and is very hard pressed to get the same mpg. The LS1 cars best is 32.8 mpg

However on average tank of gas for tank of gas, the RS gets better mpg.

L03 700R4 RS averages 24-25mpg
LS1 T/A M6 averages 23-24mpg

I keep up with mpg each tank.

Don't underestimate an auto on the overall mpg

 

"Why a T5 will not be enought for a mild modded 305? Or you plan to make more horses than it could handle."

Well.... my plan isn't really a mildly modded 305 anymore. And I've kinda accelerated the engine project a bit, so the budget is being tightened a bit. Not doing a 5 speed swap will save me a ton of $$. Plus the less hassle of just keeping what its got is appealing. And like I said, driving back n forth to/from school and work 5 days a week in stop n go traffic sometimes makes me glad to have an auto. Properly built 700R4 with good stuff will be good enough.

 

Well yes Im a little biassed about the auto/manual choice, I always thought that sport cars should come with manuals, Always in reviews manuals are faster than autos, the fact that you have more controll of wich gear you want to run, etc.

Also The autos (Like the 700-r4) have not good gear relationships, you have to change your converter taking in account, the cam, the power curve, the weight of the car, etc. Then you end with a converter that launch your car very hard at 3000 or more rpm when the power curve is ideal, bout how you do to drive this thing in the rain? you can always make smoth up-dowshifts with a manual, but with a race prepped auto?

I dont know if anyone get my point, I know that the majority of drag race cars has autos, clucht less manuals, direct drives, etc. But you think you can drive any of those safely on the street?

I would like the my car was very fast in a dragstripp but I dont want to convert it to a drag race car, Im more inclined to Auto-X, open road races.

 

You know, I never really intended for this to turn back into the manual vs auto debate. I'm not bashing everyone who kinda started taking sides, and not to be selfish but, I started this thread about what I'm doing to my car, not which is faster/better/whatever. I'm well aware of the pros/cons of both. And I know what I'm gonna do. I mean its not like everyones trying to tell me what I should do, which I appreciate, its just why does everyone still debate this to no end? Its never gonna be settled, not in 100 years.

 

Threads are like forest fires , once you start them they are out of your control.

 

Yep pretty much. Oh well, whatcha gonna do, ya know? Thats just how it happens.

 

New Motor hands down. Yank that engine out. Worry about the 5 speed later. Although, if ur engine is on the 300+hp and high tq side, u may need to replace ur tranny with something stronger anyways, so keep that in mind, u might have to do both pretty close together.