Dewey316

well, since i will be doing some work here soon

https://www.thirdgen.org/techbb2/sho...hreadid=160301

i was wonder what everyones thoughts are on the 4bbl intakes with the adaptor vs the edelbrock TBI manifold (keep in mind i will be going to ported 416 heads, and a new cam)

also is it possible to use a 4bbl intake , and still stay smog happy?

V8Astro Captain

iTrader: (1)

I didn't like the Edelbrock TBI intake. It was barely better than stock.

Now I have a 2101 Edelbrock intake and a carb adapter. It works great and was half the price.

camaro89rs355

I was thinking about getting the performer rpm intake but im wonderning if it will be too much intake for my car. i think the rpm range is 1500 to 6500. and im going to be putting a 2400 stall and some 3:42 gear's in to along with the rest of the mod's in my sig. do you think the rpm would be a good choice

ZRATED

I am running the RPm intake and I dont have a stall but it does need one. If your gona run a 2400 it would be perfect

Dewey316

so will these 4bbl intakes get past the smog ****'s. as long as i get one one with EGR provisions?

Dan W

The weiand street ram #7525 is an excellent low rise single plane that has an EGR. Flows just short of a victor jr and makes power across the entire rpm range. I ran one a few years ago with a 454 TB unit and iron heads on a 350... cam was a hyd roller 219/227 and it worked great with my 3.50 rear gear and 2100 stall converter. Based on the one 1/8 mile pass and altitude correction it was making around 330-350 hp.

The edelbrock TBI intake is crap, the torquer is crap, the holley TBI one is better but only fair. The Performer intake is good, Performer RPM is outstanding. Weiand street ram is also outstanding and in my opinion more apropriate than the RPM intake on a TBI setup, and of course there is the Victor JR intake thats my personal favorite but its questionable with the stock hood (yet still doable with TBI and a thin adapter and drop base air cleaner)

In almost every case the carb intake is better than the TBI intake. The adapter also moves the TB up higher which is better for part throttle distribution which is an inharent problem with a 2bbl TBI (GM would have done better to place them fore and aft both opening to the center). The higher you get the TB up the better your distribution will be. My back cylinders always showed rich and the front ones normal.

The Weiand intake I mentioned and the edelbrock performer (spreadbore) are both have or are available with EGR to make them 49 state (I think) legal. Check your local inspection regulations. I think the fed requirement just says you have to retain the original emissions parts so you should be ok with an intake that has an EGR.

Dewey316

Thanks for the info dan.

i had been manly looking at dual plane intakes due to the RPM range, and since this will be on a 305. i think that most single planes would be overkill on the 305, and move the powerband way too high.

Dan W

You will get a tad more low rpm torque with a dual plane because the runners are a bit longer than the single planes. We are talking about maybe 5 - 10 ft/lbs all below 3k. Single planes should not be considered taboo with TBI even on a 305. They get a bad rap because of the fuel metering problems they create with carbs due to weak vac signals causing poor part throttle and low rpm performance. These problems disappear with TBI where the lower limit of your operating range will be due to your cam and have very little to do with the intake. If you never plan on upgrading the cam or heads the performer will be just fine because those two both create a big enough restriction that you will not be able to take advantage of the better intakes.

Going by memory here but if I recall the performer flowed 220, the torquer flowed less than the performer, Peformer RPM 245, street ram 260, victor jr 270. Those numbers are in the ball park and how I remember them from testing at the local speed shop from when I lived in colorado springs.

Remember esentially the only advantage the performer has over a good single plane is maybe 1.5" of runner... this is very neglegable when you consider the flow difference that really sets them apart when the rpms come up. You will not loose driveability with a single plane with TBI as long as its tuned properly... and it will want some tuning no matter what intake you swap... that is if you want to get the most out of it. After all the work of the intake swap and tuning I would be suprised to see a 20 hp anywhere in the rpm range and consider 15 hp gains lucky.

Dewey316

thanks again dan.

one more for ya

i don't have any chip burning experiance, from the above post if i read you right, i would need to do some tuning with the computer. would this tuning be to just make it drivable , or just tuning to get all the power i can out of it. (i plan on learning either way, i just want to understand if i do a single plane, if i am going to have drivability issues if i can only do some FP tuning with it, and not tuning at the computer right off the bat)

Dan W

The intake swap is probably the swap that is easiest in terms of tuning... But when you add power you are adding airflow and you have to program the computer to add fuel, change pump shots, etc. Some tuning will definatly help and your power gains may be minimal without it. I had throttle response issues due to too small of a pump shot at first but I changed the throttle body and intake at the same time.

I'd strongly suggest you and any other TBI guy to start tuning before bolting on parts. Tuning a stock TBI with good measuring equipment will add as much power as most bolt-ons like headers, intakes, 2" throttle bodys, spacers, or pretty much any other bolt on you can think of. It is also the key to getting power out of your future modifications. I can't stress this enough. If you had a mustang you could bolt on and go but with a speed density car you must bolt on and tune to go.

To get a more expert answer to your question, I suggest you ask it on the prom board. Make sure you talk to Grumpy as he is one of the top DIY eprom tuners that I know of. He was tuning his crossfire to low 13's before most here were old enough to drive.

Dewey316

i completly understand, but do you think by doing intake/head/cam swap, my car will be basicly undrivable , without some prom burning?

bluegrassz

iTrader: (3)

Hey dan, That is the exhact intake I am putting on my car. I am going from tpi to carb.

What kind of car was the intake on? Did it clear the stock hood ok?

I want to put it on the stock L98 for now with a holley 750 vs with headers and 3.73 gears.

How old is this intake? I got it for $75 and looks new. Holley still list the # on the site. Can you tell me anymore about it?

thanks.

iroc22

Absolutely not. I had polished WP Torquers, 270* Comp roller cam and full exhaust with my 305 and the car ran fine. I didn't have an AFPR unit, but I'm sure that would have helped driveability without the custom chip.

Dewey316

kewl, i know i will need a chip, and am excited about learning, but i am sure it will take me a LONG time to get good at it, so if i can get my car running descently with the stock prom, and a AFPR. then i can start working on customer proms.

Dan W

A car can be tuned to run properly in limited areas w/o changing the prom. I haven’t seen anyone do a cam swap as big as 270 degrees and retain full function so that comes as a surprise to me with a large dose of skepticism.

Here is why... lets say your car idles at lets say 20" of vacuum and you change the cam and now you idle at 13". You are now getting the fuel and spark advance from lookup cells in the eprom for part throttle conditions at a decent load. Its going to pull a bunch of spark out add and add extra fuel. Now to get it to idle you will probably have to add 15 - 20 degrees more initial advance than you are supposed to have (I've been down this route) So what you have is the correct advance at idle and it idles ok. Depending on where the vac puts you the o2 sensor may be able to correct the fuel enough to get that right as well... folks with afpr will tune the fuel pressure to get that right as well. That all works fine until you start driving it though. The O2 corrections are all over the place, take time to catch up, my bump up against their limits, be rich in one spot then drastically lean in another. I saw surging from being too lean and black smoke from being too rich. Try to go WOT or get into any kind of load and those extra 20 degrees of timing you added to get it to idle add in to the timing in the EPROM and now you have 50 degrees at WOT... can you say knock? Good thing you have a knock sensor because you will need it to pull out all that extra timing. This is a dangerous combination. In addition I've sees problems with automatic cars stalling in gear, stalling on deceleration, etc.

Dewey316

ok that makes sense dan, now the real question,

WHERE TO START,

i am sure i am not the only person at this point, i have read the prom burning stuff dozens of times, and am still very confused on where to even start, and the diy prom board seems to be little help , unless you already know what you are doing. and for a beginer is very intemidating, about all i can figure out by the tech articals, FAQs, Stickys, and searching, is the basic stuff to buy. so great, i spent $300, and have no idea what to do with it. i would love to be able to burn my own stuff, but really need help to just get started, and figure out where to start. i am a VERY smart person, and VERY computer savy (i work in the industry) but really have no clue where to begine with trying to tune my car.

bluegrassz

iTrader: (3)

hey DAN

Can you tell me anymore about the 7525 Intake I have.

I posted a few question a few post up.

thanks.

iroc22

Ok how about you try it before you have a "large dose of skepticism"?

If I still had the car I'd tell you to hop a plane over here.

JokerRS

Ya, and in one of your posts you said you were getting like 6 miles per gal. I guess that does prove that you were driving it. I ran mine rich for awhile( about one month) before doing some chip burning, and I washed down the rings to the point it started burning alot of oil.
The cam is going to be the determing factor on whether you need a chip to run right.

Dan W

Joker, I agree with ya... the biggest thing that will make a car have poor driveability would be the cam... the bigger the came the more problems.

Iroc22, I didn't intend to slam ya... its just what you are saying is against my experience and I am skeptical of things that are against my experience. Not trying to say you are lying.

Dewey did you read Traxions article? Its a pretty good place to start. I made up a binder to help me with all the info I found on the net when I started playing with this 5 or 6 years ago.

I'd say start with the stock setup and super tune it. Adjust your BLM (block lean multipliers) aka fuel corrections so that your fuel table is spot on or tends to hang just on the rich side. Do some acceleration testing and try adding a little advance or taking out some fuel... take small steps and make one change at a time. Keep it out of knock or your runs will not be consistent.

Tuning like this is a process of measuring performance and making a change then re-measuring performance. It can be lots of fun. The best tool would be a laptop with data logging software to monitor the BLM's and a chassis dyno to measure your power outputs. A scan tool if you don't have a laptop is a good alternative... its just limited because you usually cant import the data into spreadsheets to work it easily.

The new G-Tec's that data log are a good alternative.

I have an accelerometer made by a company in England that will data-log mph / power units. It has a serial port so I can import the data into my computer and into an excel spread sheet and compare it side by side with before and after runs... excel also has a neat graphing utility. Since I know what gear I was in for the test I can directly turn that into an RPM automatically in the spreadsheet. When testing back to back runs with a mustang I had (I haven’t tried it with the trans am yet) it was repeatable to 2 hp. Make sure you test on the same stretch of road in the same direction each time as the slightest hill makes a huge difference. Repeatability is the most important part of this kind of testing. Being off by 15 hp w/o any changes is not going to help you tune.

Thats the easy part I think... but its the foundation for the way your car will run. The hard part will be when you have to tune things that arnt easily measurable like cold starts, accelerator pump shots, etc. Then you have to start using "The Force"

Dan W

It was on my '88 trans am. Its somewhere around the height of the stock intake so it shouldn’t create problems but I cant promise since you are using a carb and that throws the dimensions off a bit. I was using a 1/8" ish adapter plate in conjunction with the throttle body which is 2" from the intake flange to the air cleaner flange. I had a 2 1/2" drop base air cleaner and used the stock spacer that’s about an to clear the throttle linkage.

My expertise is fairly limited with carbs but I know the theory. If I were to run a carb I'd be more inclined to run the performer RPM because of the tuning difficulties with the single plane / carb / street car thing. I doubt this swap will be plug and play.

I'm not sure how old it is but when I bought it it came highly recommended from the local speed shop / engine builder guru who likes it because it makes great power and still passes Colorado emissions inspections due to the EGR provision. I do know it is a more modern design, not the old X style design that didn’t work very well.

Why you getting rid of your multi-point for a carb? I'm just curious since you said you will still be running the stock long block. I think you will actually be slower with this swap until you get a head / cam combo that will alow you to spin it into the higher rpm range where it starts making power.

bluegrassz

iTrader: (3)

well the TPI to carb swap is just the 1st stage. I figured I would go ahead and change over, then later swap the heads and cam. maybe go to a 383. I dont really care for the TPI, its nice and all, but I just like things simple now adays. Besides I only have $200 in the intake & carb.

camaro89rs355

I wish i had a tpi car insted of a tbi car i just think their easier to make fast. Im going to buy one here pretty soon, as soon as i find a good one for cheap. But im still going to keep the rs, ill have it to the day i die.

bluegrassz

iTrader: (3)

IM selling my TPI system if you are interested.

MONKEY

is it complete, and how much?

bluegrassz

iTrader: (3)

Sorry. A guy in San Deigo is sending me the money for it.

And yeah, it was a complete system with computer, but no wiring harness for 300.

MIAaron

Dan, is the accelerometer you are using readily available? How much was it? I am also very interested in eprom tuning.

The mass of information in this one thread is amazing.

So if I am planning on going to an lt1 or lt4 cam and keeping the stock heads for now would I want the 3701 here: http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?part=14394
or the 3706 here:
http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?part=13592
I wish to keep the EGR.

Dan W

http://www.race-technology.com/WebPage/FlashIntro.html
The AP-22 is the one to get... does data logging and has a serial port that allows you to upload the data to your computer.

As far as you question about which intake... the choice is based on your heads. The later model heads (like what you probably have) have a slightly different angle for the center bolts. The earlier heads use the same angle on all the intake manifold bolts. I haven't used a set of the late heads but I've heard that it is still possible to use the early intake with them if you elongate the center holes in the intake.

You need to ask yourself if you plan on upgrading the heads in the future. The intake choice should therefore be made on which heads you plan on using.

By the way... if you are thinking about doing the heads take a good look at the iron vortecs and be aware that they use a specific intake unlike other small block intakes.

Dewey316

well dan , the project has started.

i have the heads, and am disasambling them, and starting the port work.

i also made a ALDL cable this week, and am going to start dataloging, i need ot get the burning equipment still, and then i am going to start tuning on my stock setup, then adding the headers, and then tuning that.

i will probably be plagueing you with PMs when i actualy start tuning LOL i have been doing nothing but non stop reading in the diy prom board, and at diy-efi.org. so hopefully i won't hurt anything too badly while learning.

MIAaron

Thanks Dan, I'll have to check out the ap-22, thanks.
I've checked out the vortech setups, the L31's I have heard have to be worked just to get them to install correctly, and they are a lot more $$$. I've read the vortech setup is good for another 25hp compared to the performer and world s/r's though. I'll have to see if my discount knocks down the price of the vortech enough to give them a shot. Thanks again Dan.

And i know what you're going through Dewey, I've been scavaging these forums for a few days now.

Dewey316

yes, it is very overwhealming at this point.

Dan W

I think you guys who are starting out really have it good. There are sooooo many more resources now than just a couple of years ago. Data logging is a wonderful tool and up until a couple of years ago you had to pay big bucks to make it happen... now the software is free. Spend $20 at radio shack and you have all the parts you need to make the cable to convert your aldl data to something your serial port can interpret. I paid $300 for a scan tool back then that only had enough memory to data log for less than a minute... and had not serial port to upload to my pc.

There are also affordable ways of accuratly logging acceleration runs as if you were on a dyno. What a great deal... a few years ago you had a stop watch (like what grumpy used when he did his) you had the drag strip or there was this home dyno tool (used a timing light inductive pickup with a tape recorder that you would supposedly inport through your pc into a wave file that the program would turn into a horse power graph) no one I know of (including me) could get to work. This equates to dozens of runs to get your WOT fully tuned instead of hundreds.

There are programs out there now to help you edit your eprom so you dont have to get into the binary. Some are free... tuner cat is a great tool but it costs a few $$ but still not too expensive. It used to be that the 1227747 ecm (from full sized TBI pickups) was the only ecm you could use because it was the only one people had written code for... but thats not the case now... if you have a TBI car then you can tune it w/o changing the ECM.

I had to build an audiable knock alarm so I could tune and know if it was knocking... the truck ecm and older lower baud tbi ecm's didnt send knock data to the aldl connector.

Something I havent seen yet but maybe its out there... is someone actually making horsepower calculations from datalogged runs with the newer higher speed TBI ecms... '89 and newer. Should be possible with a reasonable degree of accuracy. and eliminate the need for the G-Tech or AP-22 type tools. I would think someone who was clever could do this with a minimal amount of code... maybe even do it with microsoft excel alone.

I havent tried it yet but there is also a board you can use in place of your eprom (eprom emulator) that will allow you to tune w/o pulling out eproms. All in all you spend less than half what you would for a DFI system ONE TIME and every car you tune after is free... and you have all the tuning functionality of DFI.

25THRSS

with a 3.27 rear and stock size tires there is no way you could hit even close to 140-150 mph in 3rd gear. If those tests are correct they had to have done it in OD with a B4C car. If they were in third they would be well over 6500 rpm/closer to 7,000 which a stock tpi car just cant do. Sounds like you need to get the gm upshift valve. Keep in mind, this is not exactly the safest thing to be doing.