Just talked to the shop on the phone and they said torque was 275 ft/lbs. And max hp and torque was @ 4500rpm.

That seems like it might be a bit low.

 

Thats really funny that the HP and TQ peak are at the same rpm. I smell a fish, or is that static injectors?

 

hmm, somethings not right.

The HP for 275lbs/ft at 4800 RPM, is much higher than any number you have receceived from them. Something is not adding at up all.

I will await a graphical result though.

 

You are positive that it is not something stupid like an internal vacuum leak from your intake troubles.

 

has anyone else heard that that you are supposed to add 20% to the readings you get on a mustang dyno? i was told to do that from guys who have had time on a dynojet dyno. for some reason the mustang dyno read lower? anyone have first hand knowledge on this?

 

158 rwhp / 226 crank, that's a 30% driveline loss. That big of a differential does not make sense. If you haven't paid them yet, I'd wait until you are happy with their work and they've given you the data (graphs), not just a verbal over the phone.

You haven't said how the car drives yet. Does it feel any better than when you dropped it off?

 

Yes they have been paid.

And yes the car feels better than when I dropped it off. It runs a lot smoother.

I was also thinking that 30% loss in the drive train was pretty large. Expecially when I switched to an aluminum drive shaft. That is exactly what that mod was for.

At the moment I an not ruling out anything. So how would I check for a vacuum leak at the manifold?

 

Your peak horsepower should be around 4500 RPMs and Torque should be a lot lower with your current setup. I agree that your loss through the drivetrain shouldn't be at 30% that seems way too high.

Your stock ignition could be holding you back not because you need after market stuff but because the stock stuff is old and worn.

 

about 20 to 25% drivetrain loss with an auto is about right, Mustang dyno is pretty close to real world number and the dynojet always have larger numbers.

 

whoa... yeah... peak tq shouldnt be up at 4500... not unless your redline is upwards of 6000... check for leaks, something is wrong... lol (as if we didnt already confirm that...) i dunno... maybe you can join bruce, nic and I on friday and maybe we can diagnose something....

 

Like it was mentioned earlier, mathematically there is no way your peak hp and peak tq could be at those numbers and be at the same rpm. So hopefully there was just a miscomunication.

I wouldn't blame the car yet, until you get some hard numbers you really don't know what's going on with the car.

 

I'm hoping to get a run in at the track on the 24th. Should have some times then.


In the mean time, if I download some data with Winaldl, what should I look for to tell me if there might be a problem somewhere?

 

Winaldl is too slow to give you good info. If you're trying to get the part throttle stuff close it's good but anything WOT it's just too slow, even if your car is slow.
I'd grab a multimeter and watch the o2 voltage under WOT. If it's dipping below 700mv at higher engine speeds (which I know it will with stock fuel pressure) then you've run out of fuel. Either turn it up in the chip and go static or increase the fuel pressure and start ALL over again with the idle and cruising fuel.

 

Could that be a big enough problem to put out the low HP numbers that I have?

 

ummm.......yeah. Stock injectors at stock fuel pressure were borderline static from the factory, which means not much room for improved HP.

But seriously I wouldn't be chasing my tale around till I got some hard numbers from the dyno guys. Your basing all your troublshooting on false info. The numbers they gave you are not correct! They can't be, they had to have just guessed what you had made from memory or somthin. I would stop by the shop and see if they have the printer fixed and have them print out your dyno run. I would hope they would have saved all that stuff for future reference when tuning similar vehicles.

 

yeah just look at the #'s in my sig those were stock rwhp #'s only mods were headers and a flowmaster and open element

 

Sig??????????????

 

162 rwhp and 260 rwtq

 

I'll have another talk with them next week. I have to stop by there and pick up my adjustable pressure regulater. They did not give it back to me when I picked up the car. And I was in a hurry to get to work so I forgot to ask for it. But I called them and they still have it. I'll get some more facts when I stop by.

As far as the print out, they said they have to take the dyno down for 2 days to fix the print software. They said when they do the will be printing for a lot of customers.

 

well, thats good at least they still have your run saved.

 

i can't believe how many people waste money on 305's

 

Congratulations. You brough a 3 month old thread, back from the dead, and manage to make a smart *** comment, and contributed nothing. This is now 2 posts that I have seen this happen in, here, and in the the suspension forums.

You're lucky I'm not a mod, Please THINK before posting again. No one here cares about your useless comments, we would prefer not to see them. At such a point as you either a) have a question b) have something of use to contribute. Then we welcome you to post.

 

Well, I am a mod and while I wont ban you for that, Id encourage you to have better judgement in the future when posting. If this becomes a habit it could result in a probation or banning.

 

And you are lucky it was Dimented that got here first, I might not have been so nice cuz really, stuff like that is stupid. I'm gonna keep this thread open cuz Bill's car is an ongoing saga that I think everyone here in TBI land wants to know about, and if another comment like that surfaces, little red button time....

Bruce (90RS305)

 

Did you ever get that dyno print out?

 

i think encouraging a youngster to modify a 305 tbi is doing him a disservice but since you have threatened me i better skeedaddle you skeert me

 

Bill is not exactly a young kid.

And this arguement has gone on over and over and over and over. There is never an arguement of a 350 vs 305, that would be stupid to think a 305 had the potential a 305 does. Do not take people on this board for idiots.

Considering the car in your profile, I assume you have an L98, which means you don't have TBI, and wondered over here to post something along the lines of 'My l33t L98 will smoxor the crap out of your crappy tree-o-fide'. You doubt you took the time to read this entire thread, or the tech in it.

NO one on this board would consider telling someone to spend $2000 updating a 305.

But since you want it, let start this arguemnt. How is modifing a 305 any diffrent than say, modifing TPI, which is an inherently flawed performance system right out of the box, you are spinning your wheels, and acting as your own worst enemy. You open it up for a bit of flow, you try to spin some RPMs, and the resenence tuning starts to work against you, and you wonder why your LTR setup won't make power at 6200 RPM, even after troughing $1200 at it. So you buy a mini-ram, HSR, or super-ram, now your at $2500 into your motor, but still have the stock heads, and are limited to about 350hp. shucks, another 1500, we are are now at $4k into this thing, you finaly have a bit of power, opps, you spun an old motor to high too late in its life, found the ridges in the cyl. walls, and now you need a rebuild, another $2k later, we are at $6k you got all your parts together, your new motor, then you figure out your tune sucks, so you spend 6 months learning to tune, or get a customer tune for another $1k. what are we at now $7k to get a 500hp motor? By that time, I could have put a Shafifroff in my car, had 700hp, and a warrenty.

BTW, wanna race my $700 bolt on 305 TBI, with you all conquiring 350. According to another post, you can't even keep your car running well, as it 'lags going into 2nd', It wouldn't even be a race. You are probably HIGH 14's at the strip, I can do that ALL day long, shifting a 3500 RPM without the nitrous. But what was I thinking throwing a whole $700 at a 305. Ohh, and that $700 include the extra 150 I have in a bottle out back. Yes, with that going, It should put me at least a couple of seconds ahead of you at the end of the 1/4mile.

I would guess if you have done some 'basic' TPI mods, you are approaching what I have spent on my car, and your still no where close.

End of this story, I am done with this.

 

someone didn't get a valentine card yesterday

 

No, we have just had 15,000 diffrent people pop in here to say nothing but 305's are a waste of money. I have had a pretty stressfull couple of weeks, finaly I got so sicking seeing stupid posts like yours, that I posted about it. I really wouldn't have even wasted my time typing, if I hadn't seen you pull TWO threads up from the dead, to post useless flame material. Lucky for you, you managed to Pick myself, and Dean (Vsixtoy) to go after, I'm sure Dean will give you just as much respect as I have. I suggest you try pushing his buttons to.

Thank you for proving my point, and not posting a technical response to my post.

 

Well said Dewey.

Lets not run this into a 305 bashing extravaganza. There are reasons behind modding a 305 TBI but most people are blind to them.

 

He is probably not even aware that his beloved TPI system was originally developed for a 305. That's right, your running a 305 induction system!!!!


I should be making some major gains in tuning this weekend. Jon Prevost will be in town to help me with the tuning.

BronY

I did not get a print out. I had kinda forgot about it. I think I will give them a call and see if they ever worked out their printing issues.


davidb

If you ever saw my car in person, you would not consider any dollar I have ever put into it a waste of money.

TGO is a great community. Case in point, Jon traveling cross country to help out a brother thirdgenner. A New Jersey winter may have also had something to do with that. But that's ok.

I see you only have 30 posts, so your pretty new. Be a part of the crowd, it's pretty good. The technical info found in here is incredible. And the knowledge that others have about these cars is astounding.

Dewey,

But I'm a kid at heart.

 

I spent an afternoon with you. I know this.

Hopefully Jon will remeber his Burner :: blushes ::

 

thanks for your kind words, i was just poking fun. enjoy your hobby if you are having fun, thats kool

 

You guys should have told me, I'm about ready for a weekend break.

Just checked $440 for me to fly out on friday.

 

Check this thread out

 

Right on, I have managed to make on on 3GO.

I didn't know anyone over there still owned a thirdgen.

Shoot, I may have to try to dig up my old 3go password, and go post over there. .

 

Yeah I figured I'd check that forum out while this was down cause I was bored. Realized I had registered May of 2002 and had like 3 posts ha. Seems like there's really only a few guys with thirdgens.

 

Ahh....I love the TBI community, I think this is one of the only boards on TGO where everyone here is sypathetic toward everyone else cuz it's 95% LO3's It'll be cool when Prevost makes it out here to AZ, you know I'll be making a cameo! I just wish you'd have stayed here another day Dewey!!

Bruce (90RS305)

 

I really enjoyed my time in AZ, even though it rained (but it was 70* and raining, big upgrade from the 35* and raining I left). I'll be back again. This time hopefully no parking tickets from the City of Phoenix .

 

Hmm...so when are you guys coming to delaware to make my car fast?

 

what does delaware have to offer. AZ is warm.

 

lol, yeah, we are warm, were at sea level, we have two dragstrips reasonably close to Phx and ... there are a CRAPLOAD of 3rdgens out here.. lol... plus, who wouldnt want to come and see the Infamous Bruce and his Possessed LO3!!! lol j/k

 

 

So how did the recent tuning do and did you ever get the print out?

 

The tuning went great. Jon determined that my injectors were maxed out @ 4000 rpm. We put on some 68# injectors and it really woke her up. I don't have final numbers yet. We are planning a dyno day in PHX around the end of March. I will have more then. I might get out to a track this week end. If I do I will post the numbers.

As far as the original print outs, I did get them and they said 157 rwhp. No to good. They did not do a good job with either the fuel tables or the spark tables. Jon took care of that.

His knowledge was unbelievable. I just blows me away that he wrote all of that software.

 

I didn't get to do everything I wanted too but we came a long way. It's a great base bin right now that still needs some idle work. There was an exhaust leak which also should be looked into. Get that fixed and see if it helps the warm engine idle, if not just try a few different burns where you lean out that area of the VE table, remember the adder table when you're adjusting the main table. If things improve you know you're going in the right direction . Also might be too much timing at idle so take 4 degrees out from the main SA table and try that out but don't try both of those changes at the same time or might miss the tune .

 

I wish I knew how to program well in high level languages. 'Bout the limit of my skills are stupid dos programs to convert raw binary data to formatted text files. I have a high speed serial port on the ecm and it would be great to see real time data.

Its cool to hear that you got it working well. The VE tables and the timing can be really tough to tune since theyre coupled. I dont think I was ever that good at picking out what needed to be changed at anything but WOT. Change the timing, and the VE changes. Conversly, needed timing changes can be masked by the VE changing and throwing the fuel off.

That sort of thing can make or break a setup.

 

ok um...so JP... when is the next time you will be in....TEXAS! cool post, nice to the hp numbers climbing as the tune gets better and better. i keep going back and forth between tbi and mpfi... i can't frickin' decide, excuse my text.

 

Thanks for the tip Jon, I'll give that a shot as soon as I get the exhaust leak taken car of.

 

Wow thats awesome guy flys cross country to help out another, cant wait to see some new figures outta that thing.

I'll tell you why we spend money on tbi's same reason i have for modifying tbi's everyone says they're slow......you make it fast and people stand in awe