Well Bill, looks like we might be setting up a pump-swap date eh? Get some Dos Equis this time

 

You guys want to fly me down there....

I did 4 fuel pumps last year...I'm a pro. All I require is Sun, and lunch at Uncle Sams!

 

lol, ****... might as well do mine too... im gunna need it considering i will have pretty much the same setup as bill, except with 45 more cubes...

 

you should just move down here, Dewey. With all of us around you wouldn't need a job. Just go house to house doing car repair.

 

I too was under the assumption that you had an after market pump. When my fuel pump went out it was only holding 5psi and was enough for the car to run but not drive. My buds vortec 305 had the same problems as you did and his car was getting slower and slower. A walbro pump immediately brought the car back to life.

 

crap man... i just did drop the rear axle off my car... now i gotta do it again... this is ugh... lol... hey, im gettin good at it...

 

You dont have to remove it entirely, just let the rear hang down. Youll need to remove the shocks, sway bar, and drop the exhaust. I couldnt even really drop mine down very much because all the bolts holding the sway bar on where rusted solid. Still got it out but bent the filler neck a bit. On the bright side, with the neck bent, it made the tank much easier to reinstall and even though I had to bend the neck back, it probably saved some time.

 

its much easier to just get the rear end out of there, its only a few bolts, and having the room to work, so you don't fubar the filler neck, is always nice.

 

Well, I am rather fond of the PNW, and my cushy desk job.

The sun is a nice break every once in a while though. We do get over 100" of rain a year here. But that rain is what gives us such a scenic place to live.

I get to drive by, and look at this everyday!!!

 

I was going to swing it all the way out or remove it, but it would have required me to torch/cut the swaybar and a few outher things out out because it was all rusted together like everything else on this car. Had to get the car going right then so it was either take a chance and bend the fillter neck 3" before removal or cut a hole in the floor. So far, so good. No leaks around where the filler neck meets the tank... yet...

 

I guess I take for granted, that all my suspension peices are new, along with every bolt and nut in suspeionsion. This come apart like butter.

 

Wow! Who in the world would leave all those thirdgens just sitting there everyday?

 

LOL, that's crazy just sitting there everyday. Only other place I've seen that is a junkyard.
My prediction is by the end of may this will all be sorted out, either that or gas will so expensive that fuel pump is cheaper than a tank of gas.

 

Well it looks the the fuel pump was on it's way out. With the line blocked off it would only put out 81/2 pounds. So it has a new fuel pump and new O2 sensor and new header gaskets. Only problem is I'm throwing a code now. I will check that out when I get home but I suspect it will say that I am running rich. That's going to mess up my dyno pull tomorrow.

Anybody have any tips on how to get a running rich situation taken care of quick? I probably have time to do some dataloggingand burn a chip or two when I get home tonight.

 

You've got mail. Drive around once for me with the current chip because from the looks of it the BLMs at part throttle cruising and idle were spot on (all in the 120's most around 126-128) from the other datalogs you sent me.
If you don't want to lean out the VE tables then lean out the PE afr tables. I believe I set them all to 12.8 , go to 13.2 and 13.6 , try those is you don't have time to go through the VE table to lean it out.

 

With the new pump there is a possibility that it is overwhelming the fuel pressure regulator. Double check the fuel pressure with the engine idling. Some of the larger pumps will overwhelm a TBI regulator. It is unable to bypass enough fuel to bring the pressure down.

Also, if using a liquid filled FP gauge it is only accurate at room temperature (72°F). If the gauge heats up (as under the hood) the indicated pressure will drop.

RBob.

 

The fuel pressure regulator is the stock one. I don't have an adjustable. And I don't have a pressure gauge.

I know. I need them.

 

John,

I will try the PE afr tables and see what happens. Just refresh my memory. How are they listed in TunerPro? Just under PE?

 

how much did it cost ya to get that pump done bill, and which pump and where? lol

 

I got it done at Premier Auto in Awatukee. It's a gm pump and it was about $500.

 

Ouch!

 

I hope they replaced it with a TPI pump and not another low pressure TBI pump.

 

Walbro 190 lets say $100, job calls for 3.8 hours lets say 65 an hour comes to 247 + 100 = 347. I just hate to see some one over pay, unless you tip big.

 

It was a stock GM TBI pump.

 

Well I went to the dyno today and the numbers are not good. 180 rear wheel horsepower and 218 torque.

If you figure a 30% loss in the tranny then that comes to 234 hp at the crank and 283 ft/lbs at the crank.

I was hoping the hp rating would make it into the 200's.

The more I think about it the more I look to the cam as just being the wrong selection. It just was not big enough. It's signifcantly smaller than the L98 cam from the 91's and 92's. Too bad I didn't know it at the time.

And to top it all off, I'm throwing a code 23 now!!!!

 

If I can get my camera to work I will post the graph. Batteries died. I'll get some new one tomorrow.

 

So let me get my facts in order. You're putting down 180hp at the wheels where with their tune it was 158, a gain of 22. That's not too shabby and it explains the lean spot on quick throttle openings that RBob pointed out from the lockers. Bob, I didn't reply sooner about that because I was baffled by it. I had actually tried to add more AE on one of the tunes but the lean spot wouldn't go away EVEN using the TPS AE. I should have suspected the pump earlier. We were going to get a TBI pressure gauge but Autozone wasn't renting them out and the mechanic was very protective over his. Too bad we hadn't looked at that earlier and spent an evening replacing the pump .
So it was the pump. Thank *** for that and yes, your cam is very mild and would be one of the reasons why at higher RPM it's rather rich. I just wanted to err on the side of caution (rich).
Oh, and here's another thought if the dyno guys told you it's a 30% loss through trans.... it isn't. It's actually a set amount of hp no matter what horsepower you're making. Example; take a trans that costs you 40hp at 5000rpm and take 2 engines that peak at 5000rpm. The first engine makes 140hp and would put down 100hp to the wheels. The second engine would put down 400hp! Automatics and low horsepower engines don't work too well hence if I were going to do it all over again I'd focus on a manual trans before anything else, even headers. I've got a buddy in a 2001 v6 f-body with only weight reduction, slicks, lcas, and an electric water pump that just ran a 13.7 @ 99mph. It's all in the transmission! Sorry for that side story but I just wanted to make clear to everybody that a transmission isn't a % loss. You can tell the dyno guys that next time and for you .
Now send me your bin that you used to put down those new numbers and send me a winaldl log. I'll show you where things can be improved and what 3 chips you should have handy for going to the 1/4 mile . I hope you hit the 14's with the new horsepower!
Oh, and HAPPY EASTER... I'm happy because it's bringing NJ warm weather
edit- Gotta get that IAT (code 23) figured out. That's also causing a richness. I can't remember if we patched the code for the IAT table resolution or not. I think we tried but were having problems with the Burn1 not doing offsets AND TunerPro v4 beta had a bad checksum calculation... so we might not have it patched yet.

 

Thanks for the info John.

The percentage loss on hp was my summation, not any of the guys at the dyno. So what would the loss be and how much would I be putting out the crank do you think?

I'm not sure I'm understanding your code 23 suspicion. You think it could be TunerPro causing that? I think code 23 could also be a throttle position sensor error.

 

I really have no clue about how much horsepower is sucked up in the 700r4/4L60, all I know is it's up there and really annoying .
The code 23 is IAT (aka MAT), TPS is either 21 or 22 so don't go replacing the sensors, just check the connectors are all plugged in by jiggling it. The datalog's will show you which sensors aren't working.... the ones that are reporting bogus info. Example: Arizona and an IAT of -40 degrees F is well, yeah. Or if during you're 0-60 burst your TPS never changed. Also, when an IAT goes it isn't nearly as bad as the TPS crapping out. The only time I've gotten a TBI vehicle to run half way decent was on a 454 pickup. We (FSAE team) had to get a TPS connector for our throttle and the truck just so happened to have the right connector... needless to say the FSAE car was more important than a truck and so it went weeks before anybody replaced it! Infact I drove it and other than a 0mph start you couldn't feel a hesitation thanks to the MAP AE . Gotta love this stuff, I soon after for shlt's and giggles moved all the AE from the TPS into the MAP and the truck ran GREAT. Moral of story, TPS sensor not worky = lean bog even possibly intake backfire.

 

Here is the dyno graph from Saturday.

 

eww your nasty lean. Looks like thing still need richened up.

 

I still think its the glaringly obvious and its just been overlooked.
I thought the stock TBI pumps where no good as soon as a motor went pass the headers stage?

If it is the cat then it's only $50 for a universal catco 3' so at least you won't be getting hit with another $500.
The saga continues.
good luck dude

 

All my data logging says rich tough.

What should the AFR come in at?

 

Basically whatever works best (makes the most power), but on N/A engines that's usually between 12.5 - 13.2. Someone more wise than I can prolly chime in on this.

 

What tony said is exactly right. You can see exactly what the engine wants in your dyno sheet. The red line makes more power across the board, it also happens to be richer as well. This shows you your lean, even if you didn't know exactly what AFR your engine wanted. From what I've read, seen, and experienced you really don't want to run an engine any leaner than 13.0 to 1 unless you have a good reason to (lean burn heads).

Your part throttle tune probably is still rich, but you have no idea whats going on WOT unless you have a WB. Your dyno session shows you that your WOT is lean. JP says he set you up safely rich, so that makes me think that you have mechanical issues causing your leaness. You could very well be just taxing out your pump, but I would do some more chip testing first before I go replacing the pump again. At the very least try to get a WOT run in while watching the fuel pressure. You'll have to rig somthin up to do this or hook up a guage on the dyno.

 

First things first, where did they put the wideband? After cat? . Secondly, did you get any datalog off the pulls?
Thirdly, the narrow band o2 sensor is NEVER accurate above and below 14.7 so just because the o2 voltage was datalogged at over 1mv doesn't mean he's REALLY rich.
Third, his part throttle is NOT rich! If you've got proof that it is then please post it but from all the datalogs I looked at his BLMs cruising were in the 126-128 range.
Bill, did you lean out the PE AFR on those runs? If you did, might want to go back to what I left you with. No need to go back to the expensive dyno, instead, take it to the track and look at your MPH, it'll tell you everything that REALLY matters with the tune of the engine.

 

I did not get any data logs from the dyno pulls. I also elected not to change the PE. I left it at 12.8 for the dyno.

I can send you the chip, but I have not done any datalogging of if it yet.

 

Was the WB mounted after the cat?

 

The wide band was in the tail pipe. They had a long probe they inserted in the tail pipe

Is that good or bad?

 

Bad, it won't be very accurate if the readings are taken after the exhaust goes through a catalytic converter.

 

The only thing that can really be said is that your running lean enough for the cat to be active at WOT, which isnt a good thing if you do more then a few seconds of high load operation at a time.

 

So my wide open throttle is too lean?

How can that be corrected with a narrow band?

 

I had over 6 months of tuning off and on trying to get it right using the dead reckoning methode (aka: narrow band) When I finally got my WB, I had my WOT wan lean from 2800 to 3600 about right between 3600 to 4200 and way rich from 4200 up. I was doing plug cuts, but the rich top end was covering up the way lean bottom end, actually they were conteracting each other and the plugs looked great. Now that I have the AFR stabilized in the upper 12's the car runs much better.

I'm not sure how the cat effects the readings, but I suspect they lean them out. Does any one have any experience running a WB like this, are the readings repeatable, just incorrect? The only thing that stood out at me in the last dyno run was that the red line, which was slightly richer by the WB made more power across the board. Also the power hump at the end of the run also corresponded with the AFR dropping. Now that I think of it, it probably wouldn't be a fuel delivery problem if your able to get your AFR progressivly richer as the RPM's increase.

 

I have noticed that if you have the VE table correct for part throttle and the adder correct for higher rpm the fuel curve on a wideband will roughly equal what you put in the PE table. I have 2 02 sensor connections in my van, one in each header collector. I am using a buddies wide band in the passenger side and a 3 wire heated narrow band in the driverside. Part throttle averages about 14.7:1 in both places. With the PE table set at 12.7:1 I am seeing 12.5:1 air/fuel mix on the wideband throughout the RPM band.

 

what fast355 said is true. b4 the wb install i ran on dyno and my commanded pe at 12/1 showed exactly that(11.9 run 1 and 12.1/1 on run 2). apparently the ve tables were somewhat accurrate that day to allow that to occur. now with new cam install commanded was 12.7/1 and i am showing like 13.3/1 so it appears my ve tables need addressing. will do that next month with pe disabled for some trial runs in the upper map/rpm areas.

 

let me know how that goes Ronny.

I skipped that step, and tuned WOT with the WB, and not adjusting the command AFR.

 

How did you guys get data above 3000, I had nothing to go on since I was tuning a completly new combo that no stock chip would even get to idle. I couldn't get any decent data above 3500 withought envoking PE or getting too much AE and skewing the results.

 

Normaly I don't either.

Ronny is talking about disabling PE and AE.

I tuned it with the wideband. I didn't bother disabling either. Since PE is always active when I'm in the 90 and 100 KPA cells.

 

my home is near a straightaway on xway. i burn a chip with above(AE/PE) disabled. keep it in third gear of five. run 3600/4000/4400 until i see some cells populate in datalog. others nearby that did not populate i "iterpolate" if i see a trend. i will be doing this soon as weather breaks as i am lean with new cam. dare not run 4th for fear of a major ticket. big brother is watching(from above).

 

I've disabled PE before but never AE, I can't even move the throttle without a massive backfire through the intake. I was able to get a little bit of data in the 3600 to 4000 range, but that really didn't do me much good since the blm's were saying safely rich, and my WB was saying nasty lean. I never liked running my engine that high under load at 14.7-1. I had better luck tuning on the top end with plug readings and G-tech times. Well not so much the times as the actuall G readings you can get out of the pro version. I have a crappy combo where my cam starts working good about where my heads give up, so my tune was way off from any factory setup.

Any way, people have been tuning for years without a WB, it's not impossible, but you have to be carefull with FI because you have 100 jets where the old school guys had 4.