Avenger007

first off has anyone had any luck with turbo city's big block tbi unit.
its 2 1/16" bore and only $230. Id grab this and reuse my injector pod...

setup-

Ive gone up and done the tbi forum and flipped through my summit, jegs, ect magazines in search of a good 400+ hp tbi setup that can be had for under $2500 (after exhaust and what not) and be an easy install. Here is what I have so far:

Vortec heads: $350 + $200 to have them machined for high lift
Edel Perf RPM intake (vortec): $200 (will consider Air Gap if it fits under hood)
Machine intake to fit 2" TBI: $50 (because edel units are 1 11/16 i believe)
Comp Cams XE284H Cam & Kit: $350
Turbo city big block TBI (increased to 2 1/16") $230

Full exhaust: $1000
Misc Gear:
fuel pump-$100
torque conv-$250
injectors-$250

will this fit my stock hood and how well will these piece togethor? Im looking for a good 400+hp but want to avoid extensive machining and tuning to get these to work well.

Stekman

You want to avoid extensive tuning yet run a cam that big? I'll leave it at that.

The rest is Ok. Not sure I would put anything larger than a 274h cam with Vortec heads, thought.

dimented24x7

iTrader: (2)

Id use the smallest cam of the line (something like 204 deg. of duration at the intake lobe) if your not in the mood for fuel system mods. You can go more but youll need the fuel to supply it, and doing some modding to the computer will be necessary for large duration cams, and this is on top of the standard 'chip; tuning. The 284 with a good flowing set of heads will far outstrip your fuel systems capacity. Youd need to have the largest injectors you can get your hands on and a high pressure pump. Of course, running high pressure with only two injectors has its own issues. This isnt to intimidate you, just to warn you that there are some things you need to consider before popping in a hot cam.

Ronny

iTrader: (1)

is a bore over 2.00 inch necessary? i dont think i am air flow restricted. ran 13/1 on WB at 95 map at WOT with old cam and same with new cam.

BMmonteSS

I don't think an over 2" bore is necesary at the 400 hp level, but I think it starts to be a consideration. I honestly couldn't tell you because I have yet to see some one make an honest 400 hp with TBI.

Edit: Ronny I just reread your sig and noticed the rpm heads and 224 cam. You should be honkin pretty good. Any track times? What do your PW's look like up top, and what kind of injectors are you running. Your combo might be one of the meaner setups I've seen.

Avenger, Your motor won't even run with that cam. I know my motor barely and I mean barely idled with a cam two steps under that cam with a stock chip. You HAVE to get into chip tuning when you change that much stuff. Your stock injectors probably won't support much more than 10-20 hp over stock. Your going to need 90 lb/hr injectors with the fuel pressure turned way up in the 25-30 range. Thats a great setup but you overestimating what TBI is capable of.

Also your going to just barely squeek in that intake with a stock hood. Be prepared to use a small filter (~2").

Ronny

iTrader: (1)

I JUST COMPLETED PHASE 2 WITH CAM/ HOLLEY PROJECTION MANIFOLD/GM 454 10/2004. i thought i would lose bottom end power but that was not the case. that cam seems to pull well down low. phase 1 (7/2003) i had on dyno 222 rear wheel but only 267 TQ. since we just buttoned up engine have not had many opportunies to run WOT. the two sustained WOT runs showed 13.0/1 ON WB so changed PE to commanded 12.3/1 and will try again in spring with tuning. had AE pig rich(WB) and fixed that. had prior FP at 12 lbs and set this initially at 13 lbs after phase 2 mods. 80 lbs injectors. did not have time to reapproach all my tables so left at 13 lbs FP for initial logs. will set to 15 lbs(maybe higher) and retune in spring. no track nearby. no traction either. use winALDL so dont have PW's in data stream. dont think that will be issue as can crank FP much more. in barn for winter.

Avenger007

I guess I put that poorly. What I meant was will this system work well enough that I wont be pulling my hair out. I of course meant replacing the pump, injectors, and chip. Geez what do you guys take me for...

Anyways, ya 90pph injectors, 255pph fuel pump and at least a 2800+ stall would be factored in from the get go. What I wanted to know is:
A: has anyone had experience with turbo citys over bored 454 tb and can it work with stock injector pod.
B: will all of this bolt togethor? I dont mind tuning and chip burning will be done immediately but I dont have time to fiddle with drilling new bolt patterns, cutting holes so things fit and what not.

I think I can accomplish a 400+hp setup with this if I get that 284 cam under control.

BMmonteSS were you saying that my hood would barely fit with the Air Gap or the Perf RPM. Id love to get the Air Gap and just bore it to 2". (am I correct on it being only 1 11/16?)

How difficult will it be to dump EGR. I dont think Air Gap supports EGR so Im not sure will to go with that.

One factor is RPM range. Im trying to figure out what intake will work good with that cam

dimented24x7

iTrader: (2)

Not too hard. If your using vortecs tehn youll have to as they dont have provisions for an egr. Its possible to use an egr, but youll need a special manifold.

dimented24x7

iTrader: (2)

In all honesty I wouldnt get an XE284 with a smaller displacement engine. The vacuum will be all over the place and the stock ecm isnt set up for that sort of thing, not to mention that two injectors wont be able to keep up with it unless your running some serious pressure or something, but then you wont be able to get the car to idle.... at all. Get something like an XE256. Itll make at or over 300 horsepower with the vortecs and still be friendly enough to tune.

BMmonteSS

The rpm and the air gap rpm are very close in heigth. I know it will be very close with the regular rpm.

Also if this is going to be your first attempt at chip tuning, don't do what I did and jump in with too big of cam. It can be done, but it isn't easy. I wouldn't go with anything bigger than the hot cam or somthing in that range with a wide lobe sep. My narrow lobe sep of 110 has been tricky to tune. If I knew then what I know now it wouldn't have been so bad.

I consider my self patient and willing to go the extra mile to get the job done. The air gap and rpm are both carbed intakes, so you'll need an adapter plate and you'll have some fabing to do to get the TB to bolt up. Linkage and some fittings are different. They will both need some clearancing for the bigger TB to clear, but not exactly boring. The TBI replacment intake comes with teh 1 11/16 bores that need "bored". If your worried about fabing up some stuff to make things work, then you'll probably not have the patience to tune a big cam, and just in case you didn't know, mail order will not get it done.

Avenger007

your saying I need to dump EGR with the vortec heads, or that I need an intake with EGR? Id like to keep EGR and just not mess with it. I guess neither Perf RPM or Air Gap have EGR...

I found someone who sells a stock GM intake but they bore it to 2" and then sell a matching 2" TBI with a spacer. It says that itll support up to 400hp and the TBI flows at 750 cfm. The thing that makes the package so attractive is that it costs only $280 and includes an AFPR, injector spacer, and pod. This would clear my hood and allow me to keep all of my stock TBI sensors and connections.

I could consider the XE274 cam. I was also told that the stock vortecs can support that much lift. 360-380hp would be a pretty good motor. But I think ill be able to get away with the 284 though after getting the vortecs machined for high lift. 90# injectors with 2" intake and TBI should flow enough. Ill need about 190pph fuel pump and probably a 2800 stall. Is the concensus that the chip tuning will be the hard part?

BMmonteSS

No way a stock GM intake will flow enough to support 400 hp. Lots of guys have bored their intakes to accept a 2" TB but everyone picks up HP when they switch to an aftermarket intake. If whom ever is telling you that a stock intake will support 400 hp I would be leary of their ability, or complimentary of their marketing skills.

Well, if you don't know that it takes less than 2 seconds to disable the EGR in the chip, then yes it's going to be hard for you tune a big cam. I would start reading now, and get the equipment now and tune on your stock vehicle for a couple of months before you dive into a lumpy cam, and lots of HP. Your going to be treading the edge, when you tread the edge you have to know what your doing. As you start learning about chip tuning your going to learn about your car and start to get a feel for what it takes to make certain cams and components work together. It's been one the biggest learning experiences I have ever had. If your not willing to spend several months learning and burning, you need to consider your options. 1) don't do something so wild, step up later. 2) Find some one who can tune your car hands on, in person (expensive!) 3) Go to the dark side and slap a carb on it and kiss your gas milage goodbye. I don't want you to be scared of chip tuning, it's not all that bad. It's actually pretty easy to do the little things. It just requires knowledge to tune a lumpy cam, more knowledge than can be posted in a few post.

I suggest you read through Traxions How To Burn your own Proms article and then decide if it's too much for you. You seem like you already have a plan for tuning, but aren't telling us what it is. Please don't tell me your planning on a mailorder chip. I tried tuning a friends car over the phone while he was away at school. It was bad, it took 5 chips to change something I could have changed in 1 had the car been there in front of me.

Ohh yeah, anything over .450 lift and you need to measure your vortecs your self to verify that they'll take that much lift. You will be in trouble by .460 lift with stock heads. The stock springs won't hold up to anything much bigger than stock and you have to machine to accept any of the readily available springs on the market. Might as well do it right now and be done with it. Also just get the 255 walbro pump and be done with it. It's over kill but worth the extra 10 bucks.

Ronny

iTrader: (1)

GM has an intake that is specific for TBI. most likely needs to be bored 2.00. has EGR capacity. #12496821 recommended for vortec and fast burn heads so i would think good for bigger HP. holley projection TBI intake is 2.00 out of box and rated for 6000 rpms. comp cams computer cam 268H is 224/230 @.05 and good for 5800 rpms, lift is .48, lsa is 114 and has a smooth idle(surprisingly)..

BMmonteSS

I don't think that intake has egr provisions, if it does then you have to plumb egr to it because the vortec heads don't have any egr or crosover ports.

My car sounds like it idles fairly smooth with the 4x4 extreme 262, but it's the overlap really messes with your O2. I've fiddled with the idle on my car for months, and just figured out what it was doing once I got the WB on it.

Ronny

iTrader: (1)

my car idles at 14.3/1. pretty consistent. prior set up idled anywhere from 14.7/1 to 16.5/1. there was no consistency. fuel distribution issues?
GM Perf Parts states EGR compatible for Vortec TBI Intake.

dimented24x7

iTrader: (2)

You dont seem to fully apreciate exactly what the 284 entails. Your vortec heads will need extensive machine work to be able to function with that cam. Youll need new gears and rear end work, youll need a new TC, and youll want to do some work to the trans to make it last. OTOT, the stock vortecs may even be a restriction with that large of a cam. The stock computer is only set up to work to around 4000 rpm. That cam will power clear out to around 6500 rpm, according to them. Youll be way off the end of the tables by the time the torque curve peaks. The idle will be really rough and the car probably wont even start when you try it for the first time. Its certainly possible to run this kind of cam, but not for a newbie. No way in hell.

Get the XE256 for computer controlled vehicles. If your using the flat tappet version, you could get away with just having to get improved springs from comp and stake the rocker studs with the vortecs. On top of that, all the parts and induction system will be a good match.

Avenger007

I think I mistook the 284 for something else. Looking back I bumped all the numbers up, saying one cam too high than what I was proposing. I meant considering the 256 but instead using the 274. 284 would be a hell of a time the first try. I did a search and found that there are a lot of guys on here with vortecs, 274, perf rpm and 750 cfm carbs/454 tbs. I saw the video of the guy running 12.29 1/4 with that setup and wow it looks good.

Comp Cams sells those cam kits with the springs, locks, retainers, cam, chain and everything togethor. I can get a great deal on one but I wanted to know if those actually compliment each other well. I know that some people recommend using certain springs and what not for their cam just because it works better. For example not using that red goop CC includes with their cams.

The reason I wanted EGR was for emissions. This will be my daily driver so Im just looking out for certain things. Should I just go without EGR (disable in chip and all) because cough cough my emissions testing isnt too tough.

nsimmons

If this is your daily driver get a smaller cam and ignore videos of other people. You wont be happy with a over cammed un tuned engine. Trust me. I ran the same cam i have now in an untuned crossfire and I wasnt happy with the results. Adding an even larger cam would of made the car a chore to drive.

The more cam you add, the less friendly, and managable the car will be. You will not like it. The 256 is plenty large.

My car is a daily driver and i probably should have went with a little less cam. Its quick, but i need to rev the engine to move. I spend most of my time on the highway and my car doesnt even make serious power till 3500rpm.

Avenger007

274 will require my heads to be milled to accept lift as well as a decent stall. Of the 274 guys out there, is anyone running with vortecs, perf rpm/air gap, and 454 tb w/ 80# and feels it to be streetable under less intense tuning?

I think I need to figure out my intake mostly. If I just do an EGR delete and go for a rpm air gap ill probably do ok.

dimented24x7

iTrader: (2)

GET THE XE256 W/ 112 LSA


if youll be using tbi, mmmkay? If its not enough you can sell it later on and buy something bigger. The XE274 will be too big to start off with.

dimented24x7

iTrader: (2)

Just as a note, I have the 8063 like you, and even my unmolested smogwench wouldnt start up most of the time with the stock chip. The fueling was so rich that the motor would plain flood out. With the stock chip, it also ran like **** with the edelpuke peformer plus in it. Thats smaller and way lamer then even the tiniest extreme energy cam.

Avenger007

seems like your tryin to tell me somethin...

If I buy the 256 in a kit how well will those springs, timing chain, and everything work with 274 later down the road.

Im actually running a 7747 with burned chip right now instead of the 8063. It runs like crap though due to junk stock 305 injectors. too lean

here is the tbi/intake kit i found that claims to have a 2" tbi unit with 750 cfm and a 2" intake (bored from a stock GM intake) all of which claims to support 400hp. Anyone know how well that kind of intake would flow compared to AIR gap.
heres the pic:

dimented24x7

iTrader: (2)

The comp (901?) springs are advertised to work, but if you use vortecs, you should at least machine them to give you the needed clearance. Machining them for larger springs also isnt a bad idea but by that time you might as well get some good aftermarket heads. Another thing is that the vortecs need a specialty intake since the intake ports are taller. Thats what teh 'vortec' implies. The intake runners provide a straighter shot at the intake valve. All good for flow, but youll need to use a different intake. I suspect that you should find the XE256 or any similar cam with good heads to be a huge step up from the weak stuff you have in there now.

Ronny

iTrader: (1)

i have a crane 2040 computer cam for sale(original box/instructions). 210/216@.05. i think 114 LSA. one year use on it.
on sale- xmas special-cheap.

BMmonteSS

That intake is the same one thats on your car right now.......which means it SUCKS big time. On a 300 hp motor, it'll be worth 20-30 hp to get anything other than that intake. The guy is lying about the hp, so what else is he lying about? Also it won't fit the vortec heads.

Just so you know there aren't alot of guys running big cam's and heads with TBI. I know of less half a dozen that post here regularly, but that combo is real popular with the average hot rodder crowd, because it works.

Avenger007

I got an email back from the guy selling that intake. I asked if it was a perf parts intake that was bored to 2" or if it was stock intake. I also asked about it being vortec compatible. In return I got pretty much all no's with some attitude I might add. "no it doesnt work with 1987-99 vortecs just like the site says..." (it doesnt say it on there)

Im still going to buy the guys 2" tbi though. Its based on a stock 1 11/16 base so I can resuse all of my sensors and the throttle and what not are machined down to work better with my setup. not to mention its only 150 bucks.

Ive decided on going with the vortec air gap. Why would it be a big deal to go with a vortec intake. And whats wrong with machining vortec heads for high lift, 5 angle valve job, and port for 2.02/1.6? I can get that all done for less than $600 shipped to my front door. Is there something else out there that will deliver the same flow but for less $$. Everyone always says...well after all that machine work you may as well get some other heads. Well if they flow good and cost cheap then why bother spending an extra couple hundred on something else.

I want to stick with TBI. I feel like accomplishing good hp with fuel injection is a bigger accomplishment than just slapping on a carb. has no one done a 400+ TBI setup?....

nsimmons

I just checked your birthdate. That explains the stubborness. Take the advice and shoot for 270-300hp It will be hard enough. You understand that to run a cam large enough to support 400hp your map sensor is going to go nuts with no vacuum. That means a very unstable idle, if any idle until you tune it(that is not an easy task!).

It would be a much much wiser decision to build a milder engine and spray it to 400

[edit]
do a search for fastest and show me these 400hp monsters.

Avenger007

Age does not necessarily result in ignorance or stubbornness. I never wanted an easy setup and I am by no means completing the project alone. I work in an auto shop where helping hands are always present. My greatest mentor and good friend is a guy who builds 1st/2nd gens for a living. Any income he has ever had is from selling his rebuilt camaros and firebirds.

I started a post in hopes of figuring out what can work and after tuning what can be accomplished. To simply say “oh it can’t be done” almost seems stubborn. Of course TBI has tons of limitations. But it is proven that you can run with at least a 350-380hp setup. I never said that 400+hp TBI cars are common place. In fact I started my topic saying that I have not found anyone that has done that. I ask for opinions on a certain cam or setup and then formulate my own opinions. I am considering all options and something like a XE256 is not at all out of the question. Is there something wrong with saying "well do you think it would work with this?"

Im simply gathering info and avoiding this ---->

[edit]
and I greatly appreciate everyones take on diff cam setups

BronYrAur

iTrader: (1)

What are the specs on the XE256 and the other ones you're considering? Might get some more replies if you list them here so people that don't know them offhand don't have to look them up.

nsimmons

You keep saying theres 360-380hp tbi cars here. Where? Do the math. 2 454 injectors cannot support that much horse power at reasonable pressure levels. Its a matter of physics, not will power.

Get a holley 4DI 4 barrel setup and use that

dimented24x7

iTrader: (2)

Id limit the powerband to around 5000 - 5500 rpm to keep the fuel demands within reason. With that in mind, pick the heads you want to run and give the tech support guys at some of the cam manufacturers a ring and tell them what you have (induction, engine, trans, TC, rear gears, etc.) They can probably steer you toward the cam thats right for your setup. The last thing you want is too much cam. The car will be no fun at all.

BronYrAur

iTrader: (1)

I agree with dimented. I think the most power with a TBI car can be made with a 350 kept under 5500 RPM. Get a fairly conservative cam to keep its peak closer to 5000 and use some great flowing heads to make some good midrange power. That, I think, will give the best results. You can always go with a Holley 670 or 454 TBI and bump up the pressure quite a bit to get the fueling. I think the strongest combo I've seen yet in a thirdgen is r90camarors's 383. BMmontess and va454ss are making very good power with TBI and fueling it sufficiently. VA put a big block truck into low 13's with somewhere around 99mph traps.

I think the potential is there but not enough people are willing to do the tuning that goes along with a power buildup. You can't just throw parts at a 350 block and expect 12's. More of you guys need to get into tuning and get into it early while your engine is still stock.

Avenger007

the XE256:
212/218 .449/.456 112LSA

next step up XE262:
218/224 .464/.470 114LSA

the 262 has good rpm range (1500-5500) to match AIR gap but it would require more work to the heads. 256 looks promising.

go here for the whole list:
http://www.compcams.com/Technical/Cu...ML/128-169.asp