Hey, fellas. I found a new TBI crate on ebay. It is rated at 310 hp and is 2400.here is the link. Here is another (300/370). Let me know what you think. If it is for real, that is a good deal. It would make my life much easier.

 

No way that either one is going to make its advertised power without the proper chip work and more fuel.

 

I figured as much. But do you think that it would be possible with chip work, etc. Would the engine package be worth that price? I mean, if you have that, then the rest would be much easier. I know there would still be much involved, but does that seems like a pretty inexpensive and possible effective option?

 

I think that the people who sell those engines also sell chips to go with them. So that the chip work is done maybe just need to up the injector size or something. Just email them. I think that price is worth it for a new motor.

 

their nothing but stock rebuilds with a TBI intake on them. Their is no mention to what heads come on them as well as no mention of what cam. Your cam and heads are the key to making power and they barely even mention that they have them.

Get a stock 1600 dollar GM crate motor and throw in your own HI PO cam and call it good.

 

I like this one as a starter.



Then again if I had the cash I would like this:



:drool:

 

Hey I just took a look at the engines for sale and they are different from the ones that I thought that they were. There are other ones up there that are built by another company that also sell computer chips and TBI setups that are suposedly bored out and stuff that. I would just email the guys and ask what cam they are using. You could also do what I did. I bought a L98 from Kragen autoparts for like $1108 + $300 for a core. That already is a better engine than a stock L05. Had Brian at tbi chips burn me a chip. For that engine combo'd with a tbi he as the chip already to go. That things pulls like nuts. I am going to start doing my own chip burning now and modifiying off that base slowly.

Bill

PS my engine has a 3 year unlimited mileage warranty.

 

Well, this is going to bring a reaction. I sent both companies emails asking about the computers etc. Both said no modification to the chip was required. The one that is listed asa 310 hp said "The intake manifold is a new Edelbrock TBI aluminum intake. The stock fuel injection and computer are compatible. No modifications or changes are necessary. An aftermarket performance chip will enhance the performance but not necessary. The combination is dyno tested and duplicated, not every engine is dynoed. Thank you for your interest. Chris."

The other company, Arizona Horsepower said "This engine requires no computer modification; the engine will run without a problem with the stock computer."


Am I just mistaken, or doesn't any cam change result in incorrect function of the motor? I really don't see making 310 hp on the L03 cam, either. Let me know on the tech of this so I can compose my next email. Thanks.

 

So what does Chris suggest? That you up the fuel pressure to 1000-psi (not being literal), to get it to 'run right'?

He obviously has little experience with TBI performance, as the stock cam will not produce anywhere near 310 FWHP, and only the stock cam is compatible with the stock chip (for it "not to be necessary")...

Don't get me wrong, you can get the engine to 'run'... but it won't run right (for all around purposes, that is). I wouldn't even bother with it, simply based on principle here.

You'd probably have a better running engine if you yanked a low mileage LO5 from the bone-yard. My

 

I thought so. I am going to ask him about the cam and stuff just to entertain myself. I will post here what he says. This should be fun....

 

91_5.7_tpi,

Yeah dude you are right on when you say that computer tuning is necessary. I don't know what the fu#$ those dudes are talking about. Here is the company on ebay that sell chips with there motors

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...spagename=WDVW

These are the dudes selling intakes that are bored although they are stock and also sell tbi's, chips and fuel pumps. They seem to be a good deal and they list all the cam specs and stuff they do the engine.

They other two that you looked up sucked man. I looked them up too.

Later guys hope this helps

Bill

 

2000 plus shipping sounds like an awful lot of money for a pretty basic rebuild on a 350. Have you guys checked with your local machine shops and see what you would have in getting a junk yard core rebuild.

I have a grand total of 800 bucks in a rebuild that pretty much has everything these guys say they have minus the roller cam. I paid 10 bucks a hole to have it bored, plus another 50 to have all the other tolerances checked and freez plugs installed. The crank is an advanced auto special that runs 110 bucks. I took a set of stock rods and had ARP bolts put in them and got them resized for 100 bucks. The hyperutectic pistons were part of an engine rebuild special I got from Northern auto. I think the kit was way under 300 with a cam of your choice. All you are left with is head work. 200 bucks will get you a valve job and resurface around here. I know prices vary, so check into it. I say you could even have them assemble it for a couple more hundred.

 

That motor is a much better idea than the other two and they seem to know what they are talking about. Building your own is another option that I am looking into. I don't really know how much machine shop work is around here, but I think it is a bit more than what you have listed. Plus finding the 350.
I'm not trying to argue with anyone or anything, I am just trying to discuss this from every side of the subject. I like the fact that you can buy the higher power TBI intake and PROMs from them, for what I think, is a pretty good price. Over all, a 300-ish horsepower 380-ish ft/lbs motor for 2650 give or take (including shipping) is a pretty fair deal.
However, a self rebuild would be much cheaper. I like not having to have things shipped.
BMonnteSS, what kind of power is your motor making? I wanted to know to make a price/power comparison for myself.

I like the warranty, as well.

 

Talk is cheap.

It's the only option.

Used 350's are plentiful, and if you maintain the stock rotating assembly (with one in good condition).... and have the machine shop replace the bearings (cam, rod & main), piston rings, freeze plugs, while decking and honing the block, you're looking at a cost of under $1000.00 (and that's being assembled by the shop, afterwards).

I'd then look into aftermarket heads, intake and cam... while swapping everything from the former engine (flywheel, oil pan etc...), to the latter....

Only to those who honestly value a crate engine with no cam specs being quoted, and an iron engine that needs to painted aluminum just to make it look good.

My words may sound harsh, but they're not meant to be. I'm only looking out for you, cuz most of us have been there, and done that already.

 

I appreciate it. I need to do this right the first time.
But just for the sake of arguement:

You have to admit people that at least acknowledge that you have to use a modified chip to get the advertised horsepower is better than a company that says no modifications are needed for it to even run. They also offer the chips for each type of vehicle, which is a good thing, if you ask me.

I know that building my own 350 is the cheaper alterenative in the short term. But if I then get aftermarket cam, heads, and intake, that requires more money as well as getting a chip to match. This set-up comes with all that.

What do you mean by cam specs? They list these:
"Roller Cam setup : Performace ground roller cam: 207/210 in/ex duration at .050”, .458/.458” lift in/ex, 115LSA"
But that is probably not what you are talking about.

 

Those are the cam specs. Read this so that you are able to understand a cam. Considering that cam is very similar to an LT1 cam its probably not the best choice for a performance 350, since the LT1 cam works so well with a 305. However the LSA of 115 makes it easier to tune, but you aren't doing that, are you?

But if you think they are the best thing since toasted bread then buy it. Maybe then dyno it too and then make some excuses when it doesn't perform.

 

Gladstoneiroc is absolutely correct. Those specs are in fact similar to the LT1's cam.... and speaking of the LT1, with it's much better flowing intake and heads, exactly how much horsepower do you think they make at the flywheel (LT1's) with it's similar cam?

How is it possible that an inferior TBI system, basically running the same cam specs as a stock LT1... make more than a stock LT1?

Just to note, you have people on here that have been posting since 1999, and if it were that easy to make 'over' 300-hp with a TBI crate.... it would have been made a sticky a very long time ago.

 

I never said that they were the best thing nor did I ever claim to know anything about tuning a TBI motor. I am merely trying to discuss this issue in a civil manner. I do know a little about cams (not much, but a little). I thought that he might have meant something like a data sheet or flow sheet or whatever.

Why is the LT1 cam a bad choice for a 350? They seem to be a pretty good cam, well at least Chevrolet thought that they were good enough for the Corvette.

If I had the money to make an engine that I knew would perform, I wouldn't be here trying to talk about the best way to save it. I don't know how to tune my own EPROM and I don't know everything you do because I lack the experience. That is why I am here, trying to learn from those who know more than me, not to be badgered because I have a few questions and am curious.

 

Nobody is accusing you of anything. We're all discussing in a civilized manner, so don't take words the wrong way. We just don't want to see you get taken, that's all. If we didn't care, we'd say, "go ahead, find out for yourself".

They were pretty good back in it's hey-day. But in today's world, a world in which some guys today are now referring to the CC306 cam as a bad choice, the LT1 cam is honestly pre-historic (especially next to the CC306).

The LT1 cam is much better suited for the 305, due to it's smaller bore, and matching 3.48 stroke. Not that you'll go faster than an LT1 with a 305 running the same cam, it's just considered semi radical for the 305, and very tame for a 350...

We're all here to help you. Some people here are very outspoken, but they're only looking out for you. Had they not really cared, they would not respond.

Nobody is badgering you.

If you're considering a crate engine, or if you really have you're heart set on one.... save you're money, and buy yourself a ZZ4 later on. In the meantime, while you're saving, ask all the questions you like. Remember, we're here to help!

 

Thanks. I don't really have my heart set on anything, but I like the idea of a ZZ4 (or any good crate). I am not going to get anything for a while now, and I guess I am a little jumpy to get performance for less cost than a ZZ4.

Perhapse I could rebuild my 305 as described above and get the high end Vortecs or similar heads and a LT1 or LT4 cam. Would that get me around 250 hp with the correct tuning?

Sometimes I wish I had gotten the TPI 305 car with the bad AC compressor and the bad paintjob. They seem to be easier to work on.

 

All of us were like that in the beginning, but we all soon realized that we were cheating ourselves, as well as performance.

You can definitely make more power than a ZZ4, for much less than it's cost, but this requires special attention to the parts selected. I have a very good friend that is running in the low 12's with strictly junkyard parts (minus cam). He knew exactly what to look for, how to port-match, and what went with what.

This is a very good article of a 305 TBI build up from Chevy High Performance, although we're all still waiting for it's exciting conclusion.

LB9's (305 TPI's) aren't anything special, and can be quite the pain in the @ss to work on (the MAF system, although works well when running right... is nerve racking when the relay's start spewing codes).

You made the better choice, IMHO. Have fun with you're 305, push it to it's limits... and read up on the DIY board. When you finally get that crate, you'll be well prepared... and you'll know exactly how to tune it (chip wise). Keep reading, keep asking, but most of all, have fun with you're new ride!

 

Thanks. I will keep trying. Lol, read the sig.

I do know the best way to get performance in my car, but I don't think that the 1200 hp 698 in my dad's dragster would fit very pretty in my car.... not to mention the gas mileage.

I may do the build my own ZZ4-type motor. That sounds like fun. Well, untill the wrench slips. My dad has an old 327 from a late 60's Impala (at least that is what I think it was out of). It is the 300 hp version and has like 60k miles on a complete rebuild. I would need to go through it, as it has been setting out of a vehicle for a while. Would this engine be a viable option for my car? I know it is a little old and it isn't a 305 or 350, but could I make it work with the correct flowing throttle body, intake, and tuning?

 

The 327 would work just fine. Combine this block with the 283 crank, and you've just achieved legendary status (Chevy's infamous, high winding, 302)...

Any engine, if built right, can rev to the moon... but for some reason, that particular bore and stroke combination worked extremely well. I remember a long time ago, my uncle had an old 60's vette with the 327. He had that thing running right. I remember him going sideways the full length of a city block once.

But yes, you can definitely get the 327 to run very well. The biggest problem for the TBI is fuel flow. You either have just enough at lower RPM, but lack enough for upper RPM... or you have just enough at upper RPM, but now have way too much at lower....

 

Way too much meaning flooding the motor? What RPM range are we looking at? Like no more than 5000? Why is so hard to tune it right to get "even" flow all the way through the RPM range? I would like grunt off the line, but also a little wind on the top end.

 

The problems is getting small enough pulsewidths at idle (as to not flood the motor) and having enough flow to hit the peak hp point. The 327 might be a good choice, if the heads are tapped for accessories, otherwise not as logical.

If you use stock ecm and stock code you will be limited by 8 bit at 6375 rpm. However that's not a real big problem if you pick streetable parts and not try to rev to the moon.

 

Best way to make power with TBI is make torque which makes horsepower at low RPMs. That is best done with more cubic inches.

A VAFPR will help you with the fuel flow issues. It allows you to get a reasonable pulsewidth at idle but still allow you to hit your required peak fuel flow.

 

I wouldn't worry too much about the limitations these guys are throwing out there. There are some issues but nothing major and nothing you need to worry about now. Most engines don't have too much trouble getting the PW shuffle down. So far I've only seen one guy that was not able to tune around it. Rbob is going to be releasing his ultimate TBI code soon to go along with the speed reader, these two things should make our poor old TBI ecm's better than 90% of what GM has to offer. Also don't worry about the 6375 rpm "limit" things keep going above that point, you just loose the ability to change your timing and fueling above that point. The computer just uses the last calculated value. Which by that rpm you should have your timing pretty steady and your fuel should be stabilized as well.

My suggestion to you is to start reading and learning chip burning over on the DIY board. Start out slow with datalogging and then step up from there. Then you need to tap into your biggest resource yet.....your dad! If he has a 600 hp motor in his dragster I'm sure he knows what he's doing. Tap into that, I'm sure he'd be more than tickled to teach you everything he knows about making engines go fast. The same principals apply to EFI motors as race motors, the only thing different is the way you feed them. Thats why you need to learn the ropes of tuning now before you get into an engine rebuild. You'll learn more about engines through chip tuning than any one can ever tell you. Having a dozen sensors spit data out at you while you make changes is a good way to learn fast.

I would deffinetly look into snatching up that 327 or talk to your dad about finding a 350 block, I'm sure he'll know where to look. I paid 25 bucks for my last block and it was a roller block. I'm sure you can find one for less than 100 bucks. Don't waist your time rebuilding the 305, it's more expensive and you won't make as much power as the 327 or 350. You asked how much power I was making. I'd like to think I'm making right at 300 hp. I've run high 13's at 98 mph in a 3700 pound car. That equates to around 260 at the wheels. This was also with 3.25 gears, and I got 23 mpg on that trip to the strip. You have to keep in mind that the rebuild won't have much to do with power. As long as you get the pistons that will give you decent compression all the power parts are from the heads up. The most important speed part is your heads. Spend money here if you can, this will get you the most bang for your buck. Next is getting a good cam, which most rebuild kits will let you at least pick a performance flat tappet. I made all my power with a good cam, headers and exhaust and a performer RPM intake. All these parts were bolted to a set of crappy heads. With the right heads I would be pushing 12's no problem.

 

Adding more fuel to the fire, here's a different one that was pointed out to me by someone on another forum:

http://motors.search.ebay.com/_W0QQf...ssZxtremeQ2dfi

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...983134161&rd=1

317 fwhp and 370+ fw ftlbs. Note LT1-type cam (in terms of specs), ported 193 casting heads (look at the pix carefully), ported (bores) on the otherwise stock TBI intake. The ECM (which is genuinely needed) plus the bored TBI is extra. Dyno plots is included, and it does seem to agree with what Fast355 obtained when he did his garage ported 193 work on his 355 before it lunched the crankshaft.

It would be helpful for someone in TGO-land to actually visit them (in TX) and check them out. Hummm... if wonder if the seller is in the DFW area like Fast355.

 

xtremefi is in austin, about an hour drive for me.

 

the extemefi guys seem to be a pretty popular topic between here and Naisso, I live in San Antonio and plan to visit them, I may have to make a trip over there sooner than I planned just to see whats up with these guys since no one else is up for it.

 

i have a couple of messages on my cell phone still from xtremefi, his name is Tom i think. I actually wanted to go up to Austin to buy my TBI parts, vs doing the ebay thing, and he was pretty opposed to my doing so back then.

 

I personally hate the PM rods. I have seen way too many of them snapped in two. My dads 57,000 mile vortec is needing replaced because of them right now. Broke clean in two.

I would be curious to see the flow numbers from his heads. The cam is practically identical to the later LT1 cam, mine. If he can get anywhere near my flow #s, WITH the CORRECT chip, read NO GENERIC, he could be making that power. My final power numbers were the following; 279 rwhp @ 4,900 and 342 ft/lbs @ 3,400.

279/.82=340 FWHP
342/.88=389 Ft/Lbs

 

To the guys that are going to visit up there keep us posted I am very interested.

Bill

 

Also fast 355 would it be cool to talk to you offline like via email or something about your old project I think I could really learn alot from you about my current project?

Bill

 

scam!