FyreBird

I am trying to start my 305 firebird after an engine rebuild. Before I pulled the engine she was running fine, now I am not getting fuel at the TBI. I just checked the wires going to the fuel pump and I have no power there. I have another problem too. I can not get the car to crank by turning the key. I have to jump accross to the starter. I replaced the ignition switch and the nuetral safety switch. Still no good. What would cause the key to not engage the starter? It will sputter a bit if I pour fuel into the TBI. Any ideas guys?

xlwhellraiser

iTrader: (1)

VATS???

Check the relay.

Check your computer.

If that does not work check to see if your wires are intact. Maybe one of them is damaged??!

Let me know what happens!

FyreBird

Iwas reading that if I removed egr and smog that maybe I need new ECM code for my fuel pump to prime and my engine to crank via key, is this true? When I turn my key the guages max out and it seems like it would want to crank. I have no power accross my crank fuse. I am not sure about vats. How should I check that. I have a push button starter, shouldn't it start if I can get fuel? I have not fuel not and no power at the pump. As I think I said in the previous post, I replaced the ignition module, it is good now. I also replaced the neutral safety and the ingtion switch. What else should I check? Thank you.

xlwhellraiser

iTrader: (1)

I am not sure that the stock ECM will run without EGR, however I was under the impression that EGR gets in play at closed loop?

Is your pump priming???
If not than there are few things to check.

The connection to the pump (it might have came off)

If you have a pushbotton for the ignition than I am sure you bypassed VATS, that is if your car came with VATS???

It just seems to me like you are not getting power to your pump.

I would check the wiring to the pump, I am thinking that might be your problem.!

Can you rule out a bad pump???

Gauges maxing out could signal a short!

Check your ECM connections as well!?!?

BMmonteSS

EGR and smog stuff won't keep you from starting. Sounds like a vats or wiring issue to me.

FyreBird

Thanks for the help guys. I just started checking my ECM. I have to locate it now, I heard it is somewhere near the passenger kick panel, is that right? I am going to check to see if it is getting power. I brought home a code scanner to see what I could get from the ECM and it couldn't scan it. I retried a couple of times and the scanner said there was a problem getting information from the cars diagnostics port. I called Advance and they told me to take a wire and jump accross the upper right two pins in the Diag port to get the computer to dump information via the check engine light. When I tried this I didn't even get a check engine light. I think my ECM may be shot. In that case I am worried when I replace it the same thing may happen again. I think originally I had a electrical problem that took out my new ignition module, maybe it took out the ECM at the same time. Fortunately the new ignition module is still fine so I figure the new ECM will be ok too. Advance has them for $75, is that good? Does anyone know of a place that would send me one that has been programmed? I am probably going to have to get new code seperatly right? Thanks again.

xlwhellraiser

iTrader: (1)

Did you get the key turned to pre ignition, or just before you turn i to start it. Basically turn it all the way but stop right before you start the car.
If you get the ECM read the codes see if anything is wrong. Codes will flash as a check engine light. If you don't get any codes tha you know its something electrical.
ECM not controlling anything could be a case, but i am thinking a limp home mode would get you started. (not sure on that one)
All in all I am thinking of an electrical problem too.
If you suspect ECM go to a junk yard and see if you can find an ECM from your car. Check the year on the article and data on this website. Put that one in and see if its working. If not than we know that you have a connection problem and some wire problems somewhere under the hood and behind the dash.
(Junkyard would be a cheaper way to see if ECM is working or not, plus you get a spare one!)

Gauges are not connected to the ECM persay, they have their own sending units. If they max out I am thinking a big short somewhere, a power wire stripped and its touching metal.


Who put in the button starter???
If its there, VATS must have been bypassed.
otherwise I would recomend checking the VATS bypass article. I am really not sure where to find it, but I have read it on this website. So a little search will do some good.

Now that I think of it, you have a button to start the car, yet you are using the key????
There in lies your problem. Since that car can not be started without bypassing or removing VATS I am thinking that your ignition through the key is not connected, or the VATS is still enabled not allowing you to start you car.
Did you try pushing the button??

xlwhellraiser

iTrader: (1)

Sorry I forgot.

The ECM is located behind the pass side dash.

What you do is remove the pass kick panel and look under, You'll see whole bunch of wires going to a metal box. Thats your ECM. There is one or two bolts holding it. Just feel around and in no time you will have it out!
Good luck.

orangetang

having the same problem it sounds like...

https://www.thirdgen.org/techbb2/sho...hreadid=322825

The difference is, I didn't do an engine swap... The car just didnt' start this morning. I replaced the battery, but the starter wont cranka nd the injectors wont fire. I can use a screwdriver to force teh starter over, and there is spark, but no fuel... Fuel pump primes and yes there is fuelin the tank, just nothing leaving the injectors...

So something is holding the injectors and starter from doing their jobs.

Buddy of mine is suggesting the starter relay is shot.

orangetang

You might want to take the car in for a scan. I had mine towed to a shop this morning and they plugged it into the scanner right away. Scanner says that the ECM is throwing Anti-Theft codes... That would explain the lack of starter and fuel. This has been an intermittent problem for me, so I guess the key or ignition is worn out. It's about $45 for a new key and $100 for the ignition cylinder and key, so I'll just pickup a new cylinder tomorrow (assuming GM has one) and I'll post my results... Perhaps our problems are related... I can fire the engine up by forcing the starter with the ignition on, and spraying fuel in the TBI... It's gotta be the anti-theft system...

orangetang

I guess that is what VATS is....

jimp2001

here ya go buddy...

https://www.thirdgen.org/newdesign/tech/vats.shtml

orangetang

cheers!

xlwhellraiser

iTrader: (1)

VATS is a little b1tch.

Good luck.

FyreBird

Orangetang,

Thanks for the info. Glad to hear that you got your car started. I will try doing the same thing! I will let you all know if I have similar results.

FyreBird

I changed the ignition cylinder and key, but no dice. I didn't put the airbag back infor the test, but that doesn't matter right? So....you guys think it is the ecm? Let me know.

orangetang

Ah man. Stop buying stuff for a sec! Here's the link to my help thread on 3rdgen.org.

http://www.3rdgen.org/bb/showthread.php?t=33081

I went to an audio shop, had them use a multimeter to test my key. It showed 41,000Ohms of resistance, so they gave me an equal resitor for $1.75.

I unplugged the ONLY two wire connector I could find coming out of the bottom of the steering column and stuck the resistor directly into the firewall side of the connection. The car started.

To make it permanent, I snipped the wires that lead up to the ignition cylinder and soldered the resistor to the column end of the connection, so I can unplug, or plug it in as needed...

$1.75 and fixed. I was looking at $140.50 for an ignition and about $70 for a key... That doesn't include taxes or the labour needed to pull the airbag, clyinder and whatever else.

When you pulled out the lock cylinder were the two wires still attatched to the bottom of it? Did you check them for breaks before buying a new cylinder?

Seriously man, you might be looking at a $1 dollar fix, so just try it.

Here's the link with instructions.

https://www.thirdgen.org/newdesign/tech/vats.shtml

My VATS connector has 2 extremely small white wires wrapped in an orange shrink wrap.... Small like, 1.5mm or less in width. Flimsy!

orangetang

Is the new key the same as your old one? Same code/resistance?

FyreBird

The key is the same resistance. I had to take the old one in to get it made. On a plus note, my old ignition cylinder was getting sloppy. There were no breaks in the old wires though. I would just like this stupid thing to run. It doesn't make sense to me because it did before I rebuilt the engine. I am going to look into the VATS suggestion thanks again.

FyreBird

I just bought a new ECM and installed it. Still no luck. When I turn my key to the on position the oil pressure guage maxes out. I never see a service engine soon light. What else could cause my key not to engage the starter, and why does my ECM never return data. If I jumper the top right pins I still get nothing.

smikecq

Just a couple of thoughts:
Did you check the fusible links?
When jumping the starter do you have the key in the on position?
The oil pressure switch also can shut the fuel off.
Did you check Fuses ECM,Fuel Pump,VATS,?