Can someone give me a basic timeline on the TBI? What year was it introduced on the cars? What about the trucks? Someone just told me that the very first TBI intake manifolds and heads still had the older, "carb" bolt pattern on the center intake bolts. Is that true? There are factory intake manifolds out there that would allow someone to just bolt a TBI setup onto an earlier engine?

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1981 Corvette(give or take a year), dual crossfire single barel TBIs.

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-Tas
'89 Formula WS-6
[soon to be Performace Red =) ]

305, TBI, auto, 14x3 chrome flat based open element with K&N, functional Formula hood, cross-flow Flowmaster, '99z28 rear pipes and tips....

Super GRK_Taz World
EFI & Intake Options
AOL IM: superGRtaz
ICQ 82881207

 

I think there was some generic station wagon type thing that had tbi like by 79 or something (unsure)

you can put tbi on any engine you want you dont need to use a factory manifold

 

If you mean for 3rd gens,
82.
They were used on 82+83 F bods, as the cross fire and then 84 in the vettes.
As far a oure TBI was late 50 for a Bendix system

 

The TBI most people are familiar with came out in 87 on trucks and 88 on f-bodies and other passenger cars.

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1991 Camaro Z28
5.7L 5-Speed (originally 305)
13.25 @ 107.18 MPH
Southern California
Member: SoCal 3rd Gen F-Bodies
Webmaster: SoCal F-Bodies
-=ICON Motorsports=-

 

the first TBI(cross-fire is 2 single TBI) i beleive was 82 for corvette and 82 for F-bodys. i beleive i heard somewhere that TBI was the "come-back" for GM injection. the last injection before TBI was on the (around 1960s)early corvettes

To find out more on CFI go to http://home.student.utwente.nl/x.i.jongman/history.html

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RED82TA5.7L

1982 Pontiac Trans Am
Cross-Fire Injected 5.7l V8
Eldebrock Headers, 3" Hooker Cat-Back, duel outlet with quad tips.
Mods: 1.6 Proform Roller Rockers, electric fan, Corvette 5.7L computer chip, K&Ns.
Audio: JVC Kameleon CD deck, Jenson 4x6 front, Eclipes 6x9 rear, 2 10" mTx T4000 powered by a mTx 200watt amp.

[This message has been edited by RED82TA5.7L (edited December 22, 2000).]

 

If TBI was to be the "come-back" injection system then they did a sh*tty job.

 

LOL

Ethan


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'88 T/A
305 TBI with WC-T5
50,000 miles
Flowmaster 3" exhaust
14" K&N Open Element

 

they did not do a bad job. i have CFI with my mods in my sig. i just got it runnig perfect today.. and i have betten so many stock Mustang GTs and alot of late 80s early 90s TPI guys. i have stock manifold/injectors. you also get alot better MPG with TBI then Carbs. and also with CFI i can beat so many people to 40 because of the low-end torque it gives. i know it isnt as good as TPI but it took a few years to PERFECT Fuel Injection. it took them 20 years to come out with TBI over the early 60s injection. so dont call TBI ******, because its not. and i dont beleive that consperisy/sabatage(exuse my spelling) about CFI. CFI and TBI isnt as bad as you think

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RED82TA5.7L

1982 Pontiac Trans Am
Cross-Fire Injected 5.7l V8
Eldebrock Headers, 3" Hooker Cat-Back, duel outlet with quad tips.
Mods: 1.6 Proform Roller Rockers, electric fan, Corvette 5.7L computer chip, K&Ns.
Audio: JVC Kameleon CD deck, Jenson 4x6 front, Eclipes 6x9 rear, 2 10" mTx T4000 powered by a mTx 200watt amp.

 

Maybe CFI isn't so bad. I don't know much about CFI. But I know with TBI, in order for it to even perform you have to modify it. Bore out the valves, shave this and shave that, this was put there for restriction so go ahead and take that off or shave that off or switch this out. TBI is a restricted injection system. I can't see how a restricted injection system could be seen as a "come-back" injection system.

 

It performs just fine for what it was intended, when my car was stock it worked exactly like GM wanted it to work i didnt need to "Bore out the valves" (?) or any such nonsense

think TPI needs no modifications if you want to perform? Crossfire is even worse than two barrel tbi in that your manifold selection is pretty much limited to what GM made (or the X-ram) not to mention you need to bore out the throttle bores, make spacer plates for the lid, grind on the base. etc

TPI was designed for a 305 cubic inch engine, go for a spin in an 80's L98, no thats not a rev limiter at 4500 rpm thats the engine running out of air

and if you think carbs are plug and play, wrong again, lets see a CCC Qjet and factory manifold from an LG4 support more than high 13s with everything factory, no modifications

what it boils down to is that to go fast you need to modify things, GM didnt build injection systems to support anything other than the engine sitting under it in stock form

the whole process in which fuel and air are introduced to your engine is a much more dynamic situation than you think it is



[This message has been edited by Pablo (edited December 24, 2000).]

 

Considering it was the first high volume EFI done by gm, and was 20 years ago,I'd say not too bad. EZ to look back 20 years and poke holes at anything done then. Thou, once they got going they were light years ahead of about everyone. The *bad* rep early one was usually the TB weren't balanced, and with the slow ecm were a headache, to those that didn't want to learn the system, and bad press from the clueless hotrod mag writters at the time.
Having actually started at square one (worked on them when they first came out), and gotten a Cross Fire to run 13.7s on cheap tires, I have some first hand info about what they did, and can do.

 

I just don't see how if this was suppose to be a "come-back" injection system, then why on earth did they put TBI on the most restricted V8 engine GM every made? Hell, they called the engine they put TBI on the LO3(Low Output) Some comeback. Hey, I am not saying TBI won't work, I am just saying I doubt GM had in mind that TBI was going to be the injection system to top all injection systems and become the "comeback"

[This message has been edited by 91Bird305 (edited December 24, 2000).]

 

By "Comeback" they just mean that it was the first type of injection they used to reintroduce FI. I like TBI better than TPI, I'll take reliabity and ease of maintaince any day over a little power. Aftermarket TBI's are made for higher performance.

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1985 Camaro IROC-Z LB9

1989 Pontiac Firebird
Formula W6S LO3 TBI 305
-180 degree stat
-Hooker Cat-Back

 

Pablo, 91bird,

"Crossfire is even worse than two barrel tbi in that your manifold selection is pretty much limited to what GM made (or the X-ram) not to mention you need to bore out the throttle bores, make spacer plates for the lid, grind on the base. etc"

I disagree. When I had my origional 305, I had TES headers(same ones I still have), no smog pump, and advanced timing. I ran 14.5 @95mph Let me repeat- 14.5 @95mph! I'd like to see ANY L03 do that with those same mods. I definatley DO NOT think CFI is the best, far from it. I want an SLP T-Ram. But I do think it is better than L03 - style TBI, and I also don't think it is any worse than a TPI. At the same time I had the above mentioned combo, My Mom had an '86 305 TPI Trans Am. Get this- Gutted cat, no smog pump, 160 t stat, gutted MAF, ported plenum, Dynomax exhaust, '88 intake snorkle, 3.08 gears auto trans: 15.8 @ 86 mph. Not only did my 305 embarass hers, but I CONSISTANTLY got 2-3 mpg better than her on the highway. The only thing I can say that was better about the TPI was that the drivability was better when cold. Mine was not bad, but the TPI was better - when cold. BTW: I drove her car in the 1/4, so it wasn't the driver.

Plus, Pablo, grinding etc, is part of "hot rodding" as you have pointed out yourself.


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'83 Trans Am. 400 CID, 224/234 crane cam, Summit aluminum roller rockers, hand ported intake, home bored 2.09" (53mm) throttle bodies, MSD 454 injectors(75 lb/hr), Holley 255LPH fuel pump, custum modded FPR w/Vacuum port added, Edelbrock TES headers, empty cat, SLP 3" stainless steel cat back, stock ECM & chip. Borg/Warner T-5 World Class, 12" Corvette rotors and clipers, GTA 16" wheels, South Side Machine subframe connectors, 1LE sway bars, 3.45 ring and pinion, Alpine sound.
Best E.T. 13.532
Best MPH 102.24

[This message has been edited by Tom 400 CFI (edited December 24, 2000).]

 

Wow, how in the hell did u knocked off 1.5 seconds of ur 1/4 mile time with just headers and removed emmision and advanced timing? Is there any chance u can clue me in on ur entire setup or is that really it?

 

Whoa whoa tom hold on im not knocking crossfire at all here i think its great and i think your performance is indicative of its potential, what I was trying to illustrate is that all forms of OEM injection need SOME form of modifications to support (and be optimized for) hp levels most of us are shooting for. The notion espoused by another member was that you needed to do all of these things to two barrel TBI to get it to run hard while others didnt need anything, I was merely pointing out that ALL induction systems need modifications to run on modified motors


as for your comparison to an L03 i dont think thats fair at all considering your crossfire engine had a far better cam and heads than LO3 engines

Not saying one is better than the other, all of them have their own specific little strengths and weaknesses

 

also, i do think it is a given that with crossfire you have to be a bit more creative than regular TBI in that its less of a plug and play deal since no one makes anything for it, in my case the only things i needed to make or do other than what I could just buy was the adapter plate to mount my TBI to the carb manifold, injector spacer, and mount my stock injector pod to a holley TBI unit


youve got to machine a lid spacer, do a bit of grinding on the base, bore out the throttle bodies and prolly a few more things (dont you have some blades under the throttle bodies to contend with?)

all and all crossfire might be cheaper since its more DIY who knows

they can all perform with some thought put into em

 

If TBI was to be the "come-back" injection system then they did a sh*tty job.


ERIC, to whos standards is the TBI ****ty to?? WTF u act as if there where an LB9 under the hood of ur car it would be n e real big difference. TBI is only a system of fuel delivery, not something to make or break a performance engine.


Maybe CFI isn't so bad. I don't know much about CFI. But I know with TBI, in order for it to even perform you have to modify it.

no ****

Bore out the valves, shave this and shave that, this was put there for restriction so go ahead and take that off or shave that off or switch this out

ok so GM put TBI on our cars to purposely restrict them? I highly doubt it.


TBI is a restricted injection system. I can't see how a restricted injection system could be seen as a "come-back" injection system.

not to be an *** but thats why GM didnt make u thier top engineer of the TBI injection system.


then why on earth did they put TBI on the most restricted V8 engine GM every made?

WTF???? how is a 305 a restricted motor?? its simply a motor size. What is a 305 restricting to a 350?? well no ****! its a bigger motor. Its like saying a 4 cyl is very resstricted becouse its missing 4 cyls.

Hell, they called the engine they put TBI on the LO3(Low Output) Some comeback. Hey, I am not saying TBI won't work, I am just saying I doubt GM had in mind that TBI was going to be the injection system to top all injection systems and become the "comeback"


I would honestly like to see some sort of documentation that says LO3 stands for low out put. If that where so true than how do u explain the name LG4 and its even lower than an LO3. Its really reguardless of what u say will "work", the point is that TBI does work. Will it run 12s stock?? no. can it be modded to do so? yes!

to sum all this up i would like to say eric u are a good friend of mine but u are not a true TBIer. N E time someone will ask what a TBI will run or how capable a tbi is u give them the worst stats that come to mind. I pick up on little things like that. Just resently someone asked what was the fastest TBI (on another board) and u came back talking about a 14.5 supercharged TBI knowing damn well that u know of faster. Look at NJ speeder 14.3 on stock cam on a n/a motor. It just pisses me off to see u go out of ur way to make the TBI 305 look bad. Well if it was so bad than y did u buy ur car? U knew what the car was made of at the time so u cant act all dum and say u didnt. Dont act like u didnt test drive it. Again eric this is nothing personal and i dont mean to call u out like this but its gettin real old man. In another post u told someone to switch to carb on thier stock LO3. WTF do u think that would do to his throttle response and his et??? c mon man that would make an LG4. A motor thats rated 20hp less and 10 ft lbs of torque less. It just seems as if u have something against TBI and 305s.

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1989 pontiac firebird
bright red exterior(just repainted)
grey interior
5 spd
305 TBI (stock)
WS.6 formula wheels
3.73 posi rear end
-------------------------
system: 2 10" MTX thunder 2000 in a Professionally done custom bandpass box.
Blaupunkt CD player
Blaupunkt 4x6 and 6x9
600 watt rockford fosgate 4.6 amp

http://members.aol.com/j007golden/Mikey89.html

 

Pablo, Yea, I hear you. That was kind of a lame comparison. I don't think the TPI one was though. I understand what you are saying about parts availability. There are definatly WAY more of the shelf parts avialable for the L03. Compared to the CFI, I do think the L03 would be far easier to modify. I know exactly what I would do for mods if I had one!

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'83 Trans Am. 400 CID, 224/234 crane cam, Summit aluminum roller rockers, hand ported intake, home bored 2.09" (53mm) throttle bodies, MSD 454 injectors(75 lb/hr), Holley 255LPH fuel pump, custum modded FPR w/Vacuum port added, Edelbrock TES headers, empty cat, SLP 3" stainless steel cat back, stock ECM & chip. Borg/Warner T-5 World Class, 12" Corvette rotors and clipers, GTA 16" wheels, South Side Machine subframe connectors, 1LE sway bars, 3.45 ring and pinion, Alpine sound.
Best E.T. 13.532
Best MPH 102.24

 

Ok Mikey, u don't think the LO3 is a resticted engine? I didn't mean 305's in general, I was talking about the 305 TBI (aka: LO3) and Pablo (the ulmighty TBI God) will tell u thet LO in the LO3 stands for Low Output.

Trust me, if I knew how much this LO3 sucked stock I wouldn't have bought it. I was 16 and I have never even driven in a fast car before. I would have looked for a formula in the same year with either a LB9 or L98 if I would have known what I know now. Sorry. And seriously, I knew nothing about cars when I bought this one. I didn't know squat about different injection systems, hp ratings or anything like that. I was 16 and no one in my family worked on or really loved cars. I am the first. And where did I say switch to carb on a stock 305? Hell, even if I did say that, Pablo can tell ya, when he put Jesters carb on his 305 it ran a lot better than his TBI system. And an LG4 is not truley a carb, it is still computer controlled. Isn't it?

Hey, I know u love TBI and all and u have faith in it and thats all good. I am not saying it won't work or anything on a high hp/tq engine. Most any injection system can be made to work. I am just saying, it was put on the most restricted GM V8 engine of its time and I don't see how GM thought it would be so great? I mean, if they wanted it to be great why didn't they stick it on a engine without a peanut cam, or restrictive exaust manifolds and a poor intake manifold and heads? I don't need to be a GM engineer to figure that out. Its plain as day to see.

 

well first off eric i would like to start off by apoligizeing for blowing up at u. I was in a pissy mood earlier and i had to unload. IM sorry


Ok Mikey, u don't think the LO3 is a resticted engine? I didn't mean 305's in general, I was talking about the 305 TBI (aka: LO3) and Pablo (the ulmighty TBI God) will tell u thet LO in the LO3 stands for Low Output.

i thought u meant 305s in general, and becouse pablo knows a thing or 2 doenst mean he is the almighty god of TBIs(to me atleast), he is just experienced. that really suprises me that u didnt further research ur car b4 u bought it. Im sure that isnt the 1st and only bird u looked at is it? surely u came across a few lb9s and l98s in ur search. who knows though i could be wrong though. hey if u dont mind me askin what u get that car for? Its all good if u dont wanna answer, to some thats personal information.

 

Two things
first of all, ive never seen anything that says LO in LO3 means low output, I had guessed so since the yare pretty low output from the factory, it probably means nothing

secondly
I ran jesters carb on my car at a time when my car was not tuned at all, even so, my car had far more low end torque than the carb did, the carb pulled hard from 4500 -6000 and that was it

the current condition my car is in will EASILY outperform my car with that carb, no question, even jester admitted "well... i dunno, but its pretty close" when i took him for a spin and this is a guy who will never ever admit that carbs are anything other than the best (hes gonna run a twin turbo carb setup if htat tells you anything)

and no I dont know much about engines and induction, but i do know that i know more than you (91Bird305) so listen up sometime you might pick up on something

 

BAH! I take back what I said about not buying the car if I knew it was a 305 TBI. It may not be the best V8 Engine GM ever made but I got to know a lot of cool guys because of TBI. So in that sense, if I had to do it over again I would probably get TBI just for that reason.

 

I have read most of the posts, and I was recalling back to the early 80s when GM introduced the TBI and it is apparent that a few people completely missed the point of WHY GM introduced the TBI in the first place.

Emissions and CAFE (Corporate Average Fuel Economy)...performance WAS NOT in their mind (other than obtaining equivalent performance to carb while improving emissions and fuel economy.

Back in the late 70s and early 80s, few people would ever think that performance (as in today) would ever comeback to the levels that they did. A 15 second car was quick for a new car (the 78-79 Z-28s were only 16 seconds if I recall). And the 350's days were numbered.

GM realized the limitations of a carb...even computerized, and TBI was a perfect solution for their objectives. And it DID exactly as they intended, it gave better emissions, better fuel economy, performed as well as the carbs of that day, were maintenance free AND stopped backyard mechanics from monkeying around with it (until some clever lads figured out how to do it). For you older carb guys, remember how the jets were "sealed" in the late 70s/early 80s...this was to STOP backyard mechanics.

The aspect of performance tuning a TBI is something that evolved...and quite nicely I might add. And a HELL OF A LOT CHEAPER than a TPI system. When I think of all the money I have to spend on replacing my TPI (and that is about the best mod you can do with it)...I long for the simpler days when for the same amount of money, I would have had a new intake, better carb, a cam...and money left over to have some decent porting done to my heads. And be faster than my stock TPI with just a Miniram...I would then need the heads and cam to fully utilize the Miniram.

Sorry, but I think the TPI design SUCKS. It is great for bottom end torque with an automatic, but its long tube design is just not compatible with high HP applications...when you compare it to the other alternatives. If I had my choice of having a TBI or a TPI on my car to start modding, I'd rather have a TBI system. I could make it go faster for less money...and for the savings I'd have, I could invest it in better heads which are still the key to power on any engine.

 

Well stated Glenn. I completely agree with your summary.

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'83 Trans Am. 400 CID, 224/234 crane cam, Summit aluminum roller rockers, hand ported intake, home bored 2.09" (53mm) throttle bodies, MSD 454 injectors(75 lb/hr), Holley 255LPH fuel pump, custum modded FPR w/Vacuum port added, Edelbrock TES headers, empty cat, SLP 3" stainless steel cat back, stock ECM & chip. Borg/Warner T-5 World Class, 12" Corvette rotors and clipers, GTA 16" wheels, South Side Machine subframe connectors, 1LE sway bars, 3.45 ring and pinion, Alpine sound.
Best E.T. 13.532
Best MPH 102.24

 

one things for sure, they are really easy to work on for old carb guys and they will torque your brains out. Hummm, pretty good idea for daily drivers and trucks.....bob