Hi guys,
I'm a little new to dealing with american cars but they are simply one of my big passions and I'm just lusting to build a high-horsepower-low-second-car. I also got experience with building Kawasaki and old little english cars and engines.

Now, I have researched for quite a while and I'd like to put up the following setup. What do you think guys? I really need some input here. My goal is a 12-second quarter-mile car with a mild character for the street.

So I'm starting with a stock 1989 Firebird Formula with the L03 and 700R4.

Planned:
350 shortblock,
Dart 215 cc Iron Eagle heads
Comp Cams 292S, with 248/248 at 0.050
Hookers 2055 headers
Roller Rockers
Probe 3.5cc domed pistons
2" TBI either Holley or from a BigBlock Setup
High Flow Cat (need input here)
3" Exhaust system (what's the best way to go if I don't wanna custom fab?)
Open Element
Edelbrock Victor Jr intake
not sure about what and whether to use spacers

It's basically the same setup that CarCraft used to build in the June 05 issue where they put out 515hp. I personally want to stay with the TBI though, but I'm not sure if this is really going to limit my possibilities and most of all my trac times. Besides they used a 850 speed demon carb atop of their 350 which I personally think is way too big for a street/strip setup.

My further questions are: what changes need to be made to hook that power up 'til the wheels. Will my 700R4 hold it? What should I use to hook the power to the tranny? What should I use for my rearend? please keep in mind that I'm living in germany- so it would be great if the car could still go at least 80mph without having to revv around 5000rpm.

If any one of you has better ideas how to get into the 12s without spray I'd really(!) love to her your suggestions and I'm willing to learn hard

 

Man, you make me miss Germany. I want to go back. Was stationed on and off for a while.

Anyways, that setup sounds fine to me. But I will question why do you want to stick with the TBI? Do you have to in Germany? Emissions testing, etc ???

If you put out 515 hp with that setup and TBI you'll be the first to put out those kinds of numbers to my knowledge. If you don't need to keep the TBI and this is not your daily driver, then I would suggest scrapping it for a carb. It would be soooooo much easier. I like TBI and all, and have been a defender of it on this and other forums, however the tuning for that thing is going to require the discipline of a monk in order to get it to work.

For you exhaust question, if you run the 2055s, you only need a 3" cat and 3" catback. The y-pipe on the Hookers is 3" is memory serves me correctly.

 

Well I thought it would be better to stick to the TBI due to fuel mileage. Does it really help? I considered switching to carb but I was never sure how this would affect the rest of the car.

Now if I would switch to carb, what would I have to do and what carb should I choose? Where would be my advantages besides that it's easy to work with? What would be the downfall?

Is there like a standard 3" catback ready to slap in?

 

This topic has been covered a lot in this section and others. Just do a search for "carb swap" or "switch to carb" or something like that.

There's plenty to choose from. It's just a matter of what kind of sound you want. Go to the Exhaust Section and you'll probably even find sound clips of various systems.

Like I said though, if you can put up 515 hp with TBI, you'll be the first. Mileage-wise you might be better off, but that will be after tons of tuning . . . and of course, that's IF you can even support those kind of numbers. A carb will have no issue making those numbers. Is this thing a daily driver?

 

No, it's not a daily driver. Rather a weekend cruiser. Searched the topics and found a couple of good ones concerning carb swaps. Still there's the question of what carb I should use. It's not like I'm all *oh my good, it's gonna suck up the worlds last fuel reserves* but at prices of about 1,5 $ per liter I don't wanna completely ignore this issue.

I guess 515 hp is going to be a hard to reach but I hope this setup with a carb is going to be well worth above 450 hp. What's your opinion?

What exactly is a catback? Are there any other systems? Why use a catback? I listened to the sound samples and they all sound cool. Actually I guess it's rather a question of money than sound. I'm fine with any sound that's rumbling like a true V8 should.

How am I going to hook up that power to the transmission?

@ Gunny Highway: where exactly were you in Germany? I'm from Munich.

 

Two TBI injectors can barely support 300 horsepower, let alone 500+. The TBI computer is also horribly limited, so that needs replacing. You need at least four injectors, and preferably eight, in a multi-port EFI configuration. Carbs are old-school and antiques.

 

Kevin,

I would hope as a moderator you would do a little research as to what TBI can and can't do and for what reasons.

TBI can suport much more than 300 hp, the TBI computer has it's drawbacks but I wouldn't call it horribly limited. With the EBL system it's better than any GM ecm and rivals a lot of aftermarket systems. Sure multi port has it's benefits, I'm not argueing that. What I am arguing is you dropping in here and throwing your weight around on a subject you obviously know little about.

You're a moderator.....act like it.

 

Well to get back on topic: I still don't know what carb to use, nor whether a carb is really such a good idea.

how about hte surroundings of the engine? Will I need a bigger fuel pump? How about ignition but what's bothering me most: Will my drivetrain with the th700R4 hold all that power I'll be pushing?

 

You'll most deffinately need to upgrade the fuel pump as well as your entire drivetrain. Stock 700r's aren't that strong, anything more than 300 hp can cause problems depending on how you drive it. The stock rear end is also a weak point. You won't have too many problems if your just wanting to burn the tires, if you want to put some slicks on the car or you axle hop it you're gonna break it.


If you are wanting to stay with TBI, you have a LOT of learning to do. You absolutely need to learn how to burn your own chips. You will be pushing the limits of what TBI is capable of with that combo. The limiting factor with TBI is the simple fact that there are only 2 injectors, and the biggest injectors you can get are 90 lb/hr. Luckily TBI can take much higher than stock fuel pressure which will let us get much more than the rated volume from the available injectors. A BB throttle body will flow right at 700 cfm which shouldn't limit you too much.

From the sounds of things you are not the most experinced car guy, which is perfectly ok. You may want to go with a carburetor if you absolutely want to go fast right now. The learning curve is much much simpler with a carb than it is with any type of FI. You will give up fuel mileage, 2-5mpg, and some drivability. FI will start in any weather no matter what, a carb might be a bit tempermental.

 

I don't think so!

Considering I have a 325 RWHP 355 TBI using a Production LT4 cam and Dart Iron Eagle 180 heads. I ran out of engine long before I ran out of air or fuel. This combo ran best shifting at 6,300 rpm. It was run with a 1994 model TBI PCM and had a 4L60E behind it.



I would put RBob's EBL and the Newer TBI PCM against ANY of your MPFI computers.

The engine in my signature IS making very close to 400 FWHP and has pulled a 3.07 geared van to a 14.66 @ 96 mph G-Tech run on my buddies G-Tech, sorry NO track times yet, as the Ported Vortecs just went on last weekend.

Verbatium on the carb.

 

Well I think I should take one step after the other and first get trained in building quick cars with a carb. It's not that I don't think I could handle the TBI, I simply don't want to take the second step first. I guess I'll start with the basics.

Talking about carbs: Is there any way to calculate what would be sufficent for my engine combo? What should I look out for? Especially when getting a used one?

As the car is meant to run a couple of quarter miles in the summer I guess upgrading the drivetrain is not a bad idea. Unfortunatelly I don't have that big of a budget to spend so what should be my priorities? Again- as I'm in Germany there are no junkyards full of american cars that could be part donors nor is there a lot on ebay.

 

Don't know if anyone brought this up, but 350 HP in a 3500 car including driver will get you 12.50s in a car with good traction. 515 HP will get you way down low in the 11s but not be nearly so friendly to drive on the street. I think your going for a lot more horsepower than you need.

Dave B

 

350 wheel hp will get you into the mid 12's. Thats about 425 crank hp. So yeah over 500 hp is completely overkill for a 12 second quarter mile.

For a tranny, a simple rebuild with the right parts will get you where you want to be. Start looking around on the drivetrain board for more info.

For the rear end, thats a bit more complicated. There are guys that have run 11 second quarters with nothing more than an aftermarket diff and HD cover. I personally have broken 3 rears with a low 300 hp setup. Being in Germany, like you said there aren't any readily available replacement parts so upgrading the rear end to a ford 9" or finding a GM 9 bolt would be a worthy upgrade just to avoid the embarasment of having your car down for months while you try to find parts to repair it.

 

First you chastise me for what I said, then you basically say the exact same thing as I did, and thats ok?
The guy wants to make 500 horsepower, and I simply said TBI isnt going to do it. He needs something else. TPI and carb engines have been running 12's for years. TBI engines are just starting to get there. Since the poster is in Germany, I thought it would be easier if he started with a known combo, rather than something off-the-wall with no support.
I should know better than to post in here, but I cant help myself.

 

I dont think either system is all that great when you get over 400 HP. Although fuel isnt as much of an issue (Im running a total of around 250 PPH @ 28 PSI), TBI is airflow flow limited. You'll top out around 700 CFM with the overbored BBC TBIs. TPI forces the engine to make peak torque at 3600 RPM no matter what. The above posters dyno results show this perfectly. There was a guy here that essentially had my motor (near stock 350 with a mild cam and decent heads) and he put TPI on it. The peak torque was at 3600 RPM and the engine barely made 190 HP on the dyno. Its been shown that TBI and TPI can run 12's, but when you get up to the high horsepower levels, your basically building the motor around the induction system, which is back-assward IMO. The big advantage of TPI is that its not a wetflow system, so you wont have to worry about fueling dynamics. The big advantage of TBI is that its not bound by resonance.

 

No Kevin what you said was that 2 injectors can barely support 300 hp, which is completely wrong. Then you said that the TBI computer is horribly limited....which it isn't. It has it's drawbacks, but you didn't bother to mention them.

You came in here thowing around untruths and VERY general suggestions without bothering to explain yourself. You should know better to come into the TBI board and say hey TBI sucks go MPI without bothering to fully explain yourself. I'll be the first to agree that a fully tuned MPI is much better than TBI, but TBI it has it's benefits as well. Mainly it's super cheap to modify and most of the time it's a system that the owner already has.

Carbs may be antiques, but for a bigginer it's the best way to learn how to tune an engine. If you really don't know that much about cars in general there is no way you are going to be able to tune a 500 hp motor with a laptop.

 

SPEAKING OF WHICH, I am still waiting on the two calibrations that were used on your Kevin's dad's L03 TPI swap. Atleast give me the BCC of the ECMs, or even the year and transmission of the TPI setup will suffice. I already know what bin was used with the L03/5spd on your dad's car.

 

Uhm, I did post that already in the original post. Same 1992 T5 transmission the car came with. TPI chip was an AXXD.

The TBI computer has more than just drawbacks. It has only 4k of information, and the access rate is once every 4 seconds on a scan tool. Way too slow to be useful. Sorry I dont feel like typing all this info out in every single post. I expect people to search and read the info already posted previously. There are no "1000 HP for $500" combos.

 

When are you going to learn there is the EBL AND the TBI PCM. The TBI PCM is the same 8192 Baud that your TPI cars use. I can pick them up all day long on Ebay for $25 + shipping. As a side benifit, I can then run a 4L60E!

I never saw were you finally gave AXXD as the broadcast code.

I knew the transmission was the same, was just wanting to know if the TPI bin was a standard transmission bin or an automatic transmission bin. AXXD for all the other readers is a 305 G92 5spd bin, the hottest of hot for a TPI setup. For the TBI bin I came up with a 1992 305 TBI 5spd in California should have been APTX, I did not have access to that bin and had to substitute AXKW which is a Federal Emission TBI 305 5spd bin.

After researching the facts on that old debate, let me show you the findings. Exactly what I knew all along, the TPI setup uses a MUCH hotter timing advance curve down low than the TBI engines do. I have attached BOTH STOCK un-touched timing tables and the various adders that are important to prove my past point.

Total timing @ WOT
RPM-----TBI-----TPI----Difference
400------8-------6-------(-2)
800------8-------12-------4
1200-----10------18-------8
1600-----15------28-------13
2000-----20------31-------11
2400-----22------32-------10
2800-----25------32-------7
3200-----27------29-------2
3600-----27------26------(-1)
4000-----31------28------(-3)
4400-----31------29------(-2)
4800-----31------32-------1
5200-----31------32-------1

Its easy to see why the TPI dyno that you did made much more torque down low than a TBI setup. Go pull 13* of timing out of any engine and see what happens, it will fall on its face. Its also readily apparent the reason that the TPI setup pulled down better highway fuel mileage as well. The TPI setup had 9* more timing at its 2,000 rpm cruise speed and say 50 KPA MAP.

Back to the original poster, TBI is quite content up to about 425 HP with the proper chip work and fuel. 425 HP IS obtainable from a TBI in the real world.

 

And the datalogging rate is more like 1 frame per second, and much much higher with the PCM's and the EBL.

 

Well it's probably true that I'm aiming with way too big an engine at the 12s BUT keep in mind- I am new to this, and although I'm investing a whole bunch of time in understanding what I'm doing I really don't think I will hit the 500 hp mark just yet. I'll try though .

I'll check the drivetrain board asap.
Got a question about the driveability of the car though: It's been posted now repieatedly that the combo I am looking for is not going to behave well on the street. What exactly do you guys mean by saying this? How is my car going to react with a 750 cfm carb and those big 215 heads with 49cc combustion chamber? what will I have to expect?

 

It will run OK, but it WILL be hurting on low-end torque. For a daily driver, I would pull back on the heads a little and change the cam profile to something milder.

For a 350 that is going to be driven alot on the street, I'd Recomeend Dart Iron Eagle 180cc heads and something along the lines of a 270S (if you want solid lifters).

The cam/heads you are currently looking at needs something like a 3,500+ stall and 3.73 gears to run well. Also needs a shortblock capable of spinning to about 7,500 rpm for peak HP!

In all honesty, IF you are spending the $$$ for new heads, you are better off spending a few more $100 and buying AFR 180 or 195 Eliminators.

This 355 made 425 HP with AFR 180 heads and a Comp 280 Magnum cam.
http://airflowresearch.com/articles/article040/A-P1.htm

 

stupid question: why are they talking about a 355 instead of a 350? Is it bored over? what's the deal?

They ar using quite a small carb on this motor.

This is just the information I was asking for. I want more! how restrictive are those 180cc going to be? Should I still opt for the domed pistons an 49cc combustion chambers? Talking about those AFR heads- where's the advantage to those dart heads?

Is there any way to calculate how a combo with smaller heads is going to affect the 12s? or to put it the wother way: How much power is it going to put out?

 

A 355 is a 350 bored .030" over.

The 180s will easily flow enough to make over 400 HP, with 450 possible after a little port work. What is more important is the velocity going through the ports will be much stronger at low-speeds and the engine will make MUCH MORE low-mid range torque, which will launch you out of the hole and get you down the track.

I put 325 to the wheels with a Tiny Production LT4 roller cam, Dart 180s, 10.5:1 compression, through cast iron manifolds with a single 3" exhaust running TBI. That was a strong 375 HP through the modified log style cast iron manifolds.

Calculating power needed to get into the 12s is just part of it. With the proper chassis prep, right gearing, proper transmission setup, it is possible that you can get into the 12s with 100 hp less than someone with a less than ideal setup! Take Car Crafts project Super Nova when they first dropped their 5xx HP 383 into it. It ran laughable 15 second ETs, but did so on an otherwise stock car. Stock 2 spd powerglide, Stock 3.08 non-posi rear, 30 year old chassis parts, stock wheels, P235 series tires, etc. They went back with a TH350, proper 3.73 gear, good tires, chassis mods and ran instantly in the low 12 IIRC. Smoke shows are impressive to high school guys, but they won't help you beat the guy in the next lane.

Domed pistons with a 49cc dish is a negative, you don't need or want them.

There are numberous advantages to the AFRs. Cleaner ports, High Flow, Better burn, Aluminum dissapates heat away from the chamber faster, enabling you to run more compression, etc.

I'll put it this way

Dart 180-215s with 2.02-2.05/1.60" valves flow 215-245 cfm Intake and 175 cfm exhaust @ .500" lift.

AFR 180s with 2.02/1.60" valves flow 260 intake and 207 exhaust @ .500" lift
AFR 195s with 2.02/1.60" valves flow 275 intake / 215 Exhaust @ .500" lift.

That means that a 180CC port AFR without port work will outflow an out of the box Dart 215cc head.

http://www.airflowresearch.com/180sbc_sh.php

Dart 195s with the factory Competiton Port work are about all you would need on a 355 for 450-500 HP.

http://www.airflowresearch.com/195sbc_sh.php

 

I just checked the dart homepage to get some more infos on the application of their heads but there is very little on there acutally besides a pretty complete spec sheet. What's the "modified log style"?

Let's talk about the head/cam setup a little: I am aware that the higher the speed that air travels through the engine, the better. AND I know that the more it is compressed the better the output of the engine. Let's now say I'd take those 180 heads with their small 49cc combustin chamber and ad the probe dome pistons (I know I'll probably have to grind those pistons and heads a little for valve-to-piston and piston-to-head clearance). I would expect my compression to be quite high. on the other hand though this means that this is more stress on my valves. I would like to have my engine have good low-end to mid-end torque and really get into the horsepower range at higher engine speeds. What would be my best cam setup then? should I go more radical or rather mild?

As I already mentioned I want to feed my setup through a carb in order to begin with the basics and then work on getting towards EFI. Will a 650 cfm suffice my engine? I really still don't know how to determine, what's going to work best.

 

I have to go to work now, will pick this up later on in the evening (morning almost for you, IIRC).

BTW, attached is a log style manifold for a 305/350 Van and others. Modified just means I ported it out.

As far as the cam and heads, depends on things like which transmission, gear ratio, tire size, etc.

I would go with a nice roller and some good flowing heads, If I were you. You can go farther on a 650-700 cfm than most would lead you to believe.

49cc heads will give you about 11:1 compression with domed pistons, too high for cheap pump gas.

 

I just now found an article about carbs in the tech section an read through it. It is stated there, that on a healthy 350 I shouldn't go with less than a 750 cfm. I also understand his line of argumentation but I was always told, that an 850 as an example is WAY too big a carb for a 350.

So what is the truth now? Would it be better to use a big single plane intake with a carb spacer and a smaller carb or go the other way? What will be the effects in each case?

 

For a good street engine, 650 CFM will be fine on a larger manifold. If your running a small, low rise manifold like one off of a stock carb'd 305, then you may have issues with pressure drop during each intake cycle. If you absolutly must have more, then an overbored BBC TBI will get you up to around 700 CFM.

 

Will there be any difference in power or torque output or even within the powerband when using a large intake with a smaller carb as opposed to a big carb and a small intake? How is this difference going to affect the driveability and track times?

 

Remember too that the TBI engines had swirl port heads --- which need less ignition advance to optimally burn the mixture --- so part of the reason for the discrepancy in the above tables is that the TPI heads need more advance because the non-swirl heads burn more slowly to make optimum power.

The other item is that the TBI engines were usually used in heavier applications (fullsize sedans, wagons, C/K/G trucks) so they are always more loaded (bigger mass to move) than when used in a lighter car (Fcar with TPI). So the ignition timing is likely to be more conservative when designing for a heavier load.... nevermind designing for the expected ADDED load of passengers + cargo.

dimented24x7 writes:

That's one of the most concise comparisons I've read on TPI vs TBI.

 

Why not consider a carb with vaccum operated secondaries or a vaccum operated secondary air door like the Q Jet or the Eldebrock. Since the secondaries open on engine demand, and don't exceed the demand they are much easier for a novice to tune. This way you could run a 700 CFM or even a 750 carb without being either under carburated or over carbed. Not sure how well a vaccum secondary Holley would work here.

 

In my mind a mechanical secondary carburetor has no buisness on a street motor. There are very few motors that can even take a mechanical secondary carb without bogging.

For ease of tuning I would suggest an eldelbrock/carter, for max performance and tunability I would look into a vacume secondary holley of some sort. I've run 750's on 305's before, it did kill some bottom end torque but in the scheme of things just having the jetting off a bit made more of a difference than having a carb thats too big. For a hot 350 just go with a 750 and move on.

 

95% of the people on this website do not have access to the tools and knowledge that we do. Therefore, using different things than stock such as aftermarket computers, larger injectors, ported intake manfolds, modified wire harnesses, and custom chip burning, is not as easy. Only the 93+ trucks have the 8192 baud TBI computer with the 4L60E transmission. The 88-92 TBI f-bodies here do not, and those are the computers I am referring to when I call them slow and hard to manage. The TBI computers and engines you are modifying and getting your results from ARE NOT THE SAME as the TBI computers and engines in the f-bodies here on this website.

Our TBI vs TPI test was done to show the difference between the two STOCK setups, not a comparison between a stock TPI and a super-stock built-up TBI. Of course the TPI has a better spark curve, because it was designed as the better engine of the two and should produce more power.

 

then i count myself very lucky to be among the 5% of the people on this site who have found the DIY PROM board. there's access to an amazing amount of knowledge and tools there! even luckier, i finally figured out the tool!

what i didn't realize was that all the TPI guys are missing out on the fun of modding their stock motors and computers!

 

No matter what, if you swap induction systems that are speed density, you have to recalibrate teh computer. Not doing so will mean the fueling and spark will likely be off. Doing otherwise is just blindly throwing darts. There have been lots of bad running SD setups because they werent tuned to the motor. The only TPI setups that are worth the effort are the 90+ SD setups.

The only stock system that can be swapped with somewhat minimal tuning are the MAF setups, but those are a cruel, pathetic joke. The Bosch MAFs are the worst ever made and the code is misirable. I went through it looking for inspiration for my first MAF TBI setup and the code in them blows and the six MAF tables are a real PITA to tune. The A/D will also really hold the idle/ P/T drivability back due to lack of resolution and the MAFs max out at 255 g/sec. At idle, the O2 completly controls the fueling. With a late model PCM and LS1 MAF on my TBI engine, the actual AFRs always track right along the desired AFR to within 2% because the later hardware and computers are so much better. Thats the main reason why people swap them out.

No matter which way you cut it, you have to burn proms and tune the setup. You might get lucky and have it work ok, or run leaner then it should and make good power at the expense of the cat, but thats sort of like throwing an untuned holley on a motor and crossing your fingers.

This hold true for all the stock systems. As long as teh engine is near stock, its ok, but when you mod teh motor, you need to join that 5%. Not a hater or anything like that, but people shouldn't have the impression that they can swap a stock system onto a modded motor and have it work perfectly.

 

Kevin you do realize that a LOT of people have success with the old 747 and 746 TBI ecm's don't you.? I most certianly hope you realize that the slow baud rate is only for the ALDL stream, the ecm itself runs much much faster. If you tried to run an ECM on a car that only ran at 1 sample per second it wouldn't even idle.

What everyone is saying is that your TBI vs TPI test was skewed because the TPI computer was calibrated for a TPI engine. If you want a good clean comparison of TBI and TPI run the two system on identical engines with identical timing curves and identical AFR's. Otherwise you are going to skew the results with tuning issues.

 

Id go for the appropriate intake for teh setup, and then choose the carb from there. With a larger intake, theres going to be some buffering between it and the carb, so it wont have to be as large. Larger high rise intakes are also performance oriented and single plane, so usually thats what youll be using. Wouldnt want to use a stock LG4 intake on a modded 400. Like teh above poster said, VS carbs are more forgiving. If your just in it for power primarily, then Id select the carb thats going to optimize power output.

 

I have used the 1227747, 1227846, 1228747, and 299 ECMs with 160 baud. You can get one of them to run very well.

Swapping to a TBI truck PCM is every bit as simple as re-pinning for a TPI swap, so dito there.

I know you are talking stock TBI vs. stock TPI and respect that. But, I AM talking stock TBI vs. TPI. I have personally made 279 RWHP on the stock TBI intake setup and stock bore TBI with nothing more than highly raised fuel pressure and ultimate TBI mods. Just the fact is though the TPI tune is actually hotter on a TBI engine than it is on a TPI engine due to the difference in the burn on the heads.

 

I certainly fall in the 95% of people who can't figure out what you guys are talking about. This is my first computer controlled car and burning your own chips seems like the way to go. I've read the stickies and it seems really simple until you start reading posts about all the changes that need to be made and how changing one parameter then changes another. Looks like a guy could be burning chips the rest of his life. All the acronyms you guys throw around makes it even more confusing. As good an idea chip burning is I'm afraid I'll just end up carburated in the end.

 

And that says it all!

 

No shame in admitting that you're not a computer guy and getting a carb.

Where guys run into problems is when they start modifying their TBI car like it was a carb'ed car and wonder why it won't even idle. Most average car guys get frustrated and throw money at the problem and when it still doesn't fix the problem they turn to mail order tunes and end up with a compromised setup.

TBI is the cheapest most simple FI setup there is, it is also very capable up to a certain point. I think this board should pride itself in knowing what those limits are and why they are really limits. It should also debunk the common misconceptions and explain to any one who is willing to listen why and how these systems work.

 

I think BMonteSS is totally right concerning this issue. This is also the reason why I'll take a carb and just go from there.

Stupid newbie question #2: What's the difference between a 4bolt and a 2 bolt 350? When getting a 350 what year should I look out for? Are they all going to mount right up to the chassis? AND are they all going to mount up to my 700R4? What if not?