Not sure what to do at this point.

My Camaro has been having an ongoing problem that I was not able to find and as a result I was on a path that led nowhere basically throwing new parts at it, I dropped about $1300 into it and the problem still exists. The shop where I eventually took it to be fixed says "Oh its the exhaust without a doubt. It cant breathe so if the exhaust is replaced the problem will be solved." $600 later the problem is still not solved. I told the shop that I brought the car in to be fixed and not to have the exhaust replaced so keep it and find the problem, it has been over a week now and they still have not found the problem.
So here I am stuck with a car that is not yet completely paid for, it does not run properly even after a considerable amount of effort, and I am broke as hell.

I thought maybe I could take it back to the dealer in the hopes that it would not present the problem and trade it up as is the deal I have been coddling along for several months now with them, but now the problem is so redundant I cannot trust the car to hide these symptoms while I try to perform this sneaky deed.

I can take it back and tell them to trade me into something of equal or better value and I will continue to make payments and since they have the resources to repair it they can resell it.

I can go back to the dealer and demand the title free and clear at this point at least I wont have to make payments on it anymore and I can use that money to get it fixed or lease something until I can fix it myself.

Take the car back to the dealer and suffer the loss completely and be without wheels until I can save enough money to buy another one. This last option is almost not an option, I cannot go without a car, I need to be able to get back and forth from work.

The last option which is definitely the most appealing and also terribly illegal would be to create a short in the car and let it catch fire and burn then collect the insurance money which will pay it off and help me put a down payment on another.

I have absolutely no desire to be fraudulent or conniving in any way but I am at my wits end and am in a desperate situation from which I have almost no way out and no way of recuperating any of the investment I have made into the vehicle.

Does anybody have any other ideas I can possibly use?

 

I must have missed some earlier post...
I take it you have some sort of exhaust problem ....

You are frustrated and looking for a "bail out" strategy...

You don't do "cars" and are looking for a strategy
for dealing with the car dealer, mechanic ???

 

[QUOTE]Originally posted by urbman
[B]I must have missed some earlier post...

No this is the first post

I take it you have some sort of exhaust problem ....

I cannot find the problem, the exhaust is replaced and the car still has the problem so I have naturally eliminated the exhaust as being the source of the problem

You are frustrated and looking for a "bail out" strategy...

Yes I need a "bail out" strategy... big time

You don't do "cars" and are looking for a strategy
for dealing with the car dealer, mechanic ???

Sure I do "cars" ( in fact I love working on my car) but this car has cost me dearly and I am broke as in I dont have another dime to my name to invest in repairing it anymore much less eat food, so I am trying to find some other ideas or options as a way out of this incredibly expensive situation and at least using the car and the investment I have made into it as a means for leverage of some sort.

I am also an amatuer and therfore I do not have access to the wide variety of tools needed for more advanced mechanical work, yet (slowly buying the tools to get to this point).

 

So, what exactly is wrong with the car?


~M~

 

Strategy 1
Part it out

Strategy 2
Sell it outright

Strategy 3
Bartend until you have war chest to adress the problem

Strategy 4
Describe the problem, many folks are willing to help

Strategy 5
Be a weasel and screw somebody else

 

I was afraid someone would ask that question.

At sporadic intervals the car will either stutter intermittently while driving or just bog down completely at which point the only way to get it back up is to leave it running, go under the hood and squeeze the EGR valve closed until it stops running or rev the engine up to the orange line just below red and usually the problem will straighten up right as it is passing over 4500. Though of late this last option was not working any more and squeezing the EGR valve just made it suck really bad and not actually stall it.
At this point I have replaced the starter, the ignition coil twice (whatever the short it is taking out this coil), the pickup coil, the alternater, the Delco lock II key cylinder in the steering column (which had a broken line and looked hopeful when I got it out but alas this was not the problem) 2 new batteries, I have destroyed my catalytic converter (jacked it up and drilled about twenty holes in it everywhere) which did nothing other than make it sound like it had a really bad exhaust leak, replaced the fuel filter and did an extensive amount of testing on the fuel pump without actually taking it out of the car.

I am left with two major options I have not really tried to take apart yet, the intake air valve under the passenger side valve cover (the mechanic told me about this one today) and taking the fuel injector system apart which I have been wary of because I know my limits and that is certainly one of them at the moment.

Diagnostic tests were inconclusive, fuel flow is at 42 PSI and no amount of other testing has indicated anything is actually wrong with the car either with the problem or without.

BTW its an 89 RS with a 2.8 and 130000 miles. It was supposed to hold out long enough to wait for a V8 transplant and extensive exhaust conversion as well as a new drive train front to back, naturally a car may be a mechanical thing but I swear this one is conspiring against me and now I hate it and want to be rid of it altogether.

 

Also to note this problem does not happen at any specified time, it has happened when the car first starts in the morning and sometimes it does not happen at all during a regular days drive. I have also replaced the cap and rotor (I guess I assumed that everybody would assume that I had assumedly replaced this, sorry for making an *** out of U and ME)

I have never parted a car out before, what would the value of the car be in parts? And would it really be all that valuable coming from a 2.8 with 130000? I could probably get some decent money for the T-Top windows and certainly the rear window but I just cant see anything else on the car being worth very much.

 

Relax, There are some excellent v6 guys on the board.
TomP will probably chime in on this. I have a couple of
guesses here but I will wait for Master Tom to comment.

A few observations...
1. What I think you may be lacking is an appropriate manual.
(Think Helm's not Chiltons) This is my "best" most frequently
used "tool".

2. It seems you are fiscally over extended. While not a topic
appropos to this board, you need to think this through.
It is very high stress, It clouds an otherwise clear mind,
eventually it will make you sick.

3. You are on the right track at this point. The folks on the
board are really nice folks and are amazing in the depth
of their experience.

4. You have changed out a fair amount of hardware. This will
make things a bit more complicated. It is not logically "true"
that "you changed out A, therefore A is good".

 

Thanks urbman I appreciate the manner in which you were able to present that. It was actually moderately calming.

I apologize for bringing the fiscal thing into it, I hope that my intentions were not misunderstood.This has been a thorn in my side for several months now and it is making me sick.

One thing, I don't understand how replacing part A does not necessarily mean that part A is not still bad? For example I replaced the ignition coil and a few days later the same problem cropped back up, which was to not start for three tries. The starter would just click and thats it. Three times consistently (if it did it at all it would do it twice then it would work on the thrid try) so I replaced the ignition coil once again and still yet the problem came back in a few days. Obviously I have stopped replacing it, it is not the problem something else is making it go bad, which I would logically gather to be the unfound short in the system that also makes the battery guage go a little haywire at some times, and also makes the CD player (not the radio, very odd) act funny and skip alot (no its not the bumbs in the road) I have since disconnected the deck and the problem still exists. But also the fuel guage registers funny sometimes which I attribute to the short as well because I can fill the tank completely up and start the car and the guage will go up to 3/4 full and as I drive from the gas station to my destination it would drop to 1/2 then 1/4 then back to 3/4 it was very random. I took to using the tripometer to know when I would need to fill up again.

Also I have replaced the spark plugs and wires with new ones, and have shocked the peewaddin out of myself to ascertain whether or not it was firing during the problem. But over the last few months the problem went from a sporadic intermittent issue that would make the car stutter on the highway under normal conditions to bogging down dramatically under any condition to bogging down and not being able to correct it at all without pulling some part off (any one) and either putting it back on or replacing it. So whatever the problem is, it is certainly deteriorating and not a pass/fail thing.

I have never heard of this air intake valve under the valve cover (I hope the mechanic is not just lying to me in the hopes that I will give up on him, he is now working on tracking the problem for no more additional cost and this is something he wont track without charging me another small fortune for it) but if this IS the problem spot it would make sense that a gasket is coming apart it would fall in line with a deteriorating condition.

I am also worried about consequential damage from limping it home while it is experiencing these conditions. Which just stimulated a thought, I read somewhere on these boards that the computer will go into a "limp home" mode that almost seems to correlate with the symptoms I am experiencing. Is it possible that the car is doing this and not returning back? If so wouldn't the service light come on? The service light has only come on once throughout this entire ordeal and that was after I disconnected the air flow sensor aft of the intake filters, otherwise that is the only time I have seen the service light come on. Which might explain why any diagnostic tests were inconclusive.

I take back what I said before about hating the car, I love my Camaro, I love driving around with the T-Tops out on beautiful days, being able to quickly accelerate into traffic even with the underdog V6 it is still fun to drive when it is running properly. It looks good and I really do take good care of it. I guess there is a point when a looming problem gets so big and ugly it takes all the fun out of these simple pleasures.

 

Errrr...
On a recent trip to Taos I had an electrical failure. Stopped at
the local "Checker" got a battery and an alternator. Put them in.
90 miles later same problem.

According to "you changed out A, therefore A is good" it
couldn't be either the battery or the alternator and of course
it was. (alternator) I could not sort this out on the road (my car "kit" didn't include a dvm) and so until I got home I could not
do a proper "sort". That is verify that the behavioral characteristics of the components were in fact "good".

The reason I am "hot" for the helms series of manuals is
that they include relatively nice mechanisms for doing
just this sort of thing that is not only the RR thing but the
all important "how do I know its working" thing.

 

You mentioned "squeezing" the EGR valve, I am not familiar with the V 6 EGR, is it electrical or electrical/vaccum operated?

The thing with the guages and all reading erratically points strongly to a grounding problem, and since it is getting worse and worse makes an even stronger case for a loose ground. If a ground is loose and allowed to arc, it will eventually build up carbon/corrosion deposits between the ground lug and the metal it was grounding to, making the problem of a bad ground worse and worse as time went by.

As an experiment find your grounds on the engine and clean them up, next run a jumper from them to a known good chassis ground, try running the car and see if it helps. You may have some hunting to do to find all the grounds.

If the mechanic said replacing the exhaust and all the other things he has done would fix the car and they didn't, have them put your old parts back on and refund the cost of the parts. Obviously if they didn't fix the problem you didn't need them. They can not charge you for parts you don't need. If they tell you that the parts were thrown away or destroyed removing them then THEY are SOL, not you, they will have to replace any parts they distroyed free of charge.
Start making demands and don't be taken advantage of.

If you have a garage and can spare the time, I'd park the car and start finding and cleaning all the grounds in the car, one by one.

Hope this helps put you on the right track.


~M~

 

Repost this thread under a "new" topic with only the facts...
(this is just too cumbersome to read)

Morley is correct ... If you don't know where to look ... ask

Get a DVM for "round 2"

 

Wow; what a hard message to sort out. So the car stumbles and loses power, for no reason? And once it loses power, it will act poorly until you shut it off?

Why are you opening the EGR to shut the motor off? (Morley, the EGR on the 82-89 2.8's is vacuum operated. 90-92 3.1's were digital.) How did you decide the ignition coil was bad? You said you replaced it twice. Why did you replace the pickup coil? You mention the CD player acts funny, as does the gauges, and that you've replaced the alternator. Did you check the alternator first? Did you check this alternator? How old is the battery? Have you read (aka "examined") the spark plugs for deposits, damage, or a gap that's too wide? Did you do any testing of the ignition wires? How did you check for spark?

You said that now, playing with the EGR doesn't stall the car. Have you checked for a stuck-open EGR?

Here's my theory. You say the car seems to stumble and lose power, for no reason... and that the only way to fix it was to either rev the hell out of the motor, or, to make it stall (via the EGR), and start it up again.

I think the EGR is getting stuck open. EGR will activate under the following conditions: 1, Engine run time needs to be more than a few minutes. 2, Engine temperature (as seen by the CTS, coolant temp sensor) must be above a certain degree. 3, Road Speed (speedometer) must be high. 4, Engine speed (RPM, tachometer) must be low. 3 & 4 occur when you're "crusing" on the highway... such as, if you're doing 55 mph on an empty road with no traffic in sight, and a good song on the radio.

I think your "random problem" occurs when the EGR engages. When you slow the car down, the EGR is supposed to disengage- and it doesn't, so the car acts up. One day, you might be crusing for 5 minutes, tap the brakes, and the EGR can't disengage, so your engine dies. Another day, you might be crusing for an hour before you hit the brakes. I think the "random" part is the time it takes you to slow the car down after the EGR engages.

Now, you said that by playing with the EGR, the car doesn't stall anymore. I think the EGR passageway is getting clogged up with carbon, and while the stuck-open EGR is ruining your engine's power, it's not allowing enough exhaust gas into the motor to cause it to stall.

Diagnosis #1: When the car starts acting up again, pull over to the side of the road, or into a parking lot, and pop the hood. Carefully (watch your clothes/hair/fingers/jewely/etc from the fan belts/fan/hot exhaust) feel the bottom of the EGR valve. The diaphragm should be all the way down. If it's not, the EGR is stuck open.

Diagnosis #2: Remove the vac line from the top of the EGR, and plug it with a wooden golf tee. (Yes, "golf" as in Tiger Woods!) This prevents the EGR from being activated by the computer. We block the vacuum line to prevent the EGR code being thrown by the computer. When the computer tells the EGR solenoid to activate, the EGR diag switch provides feedback to the computer saying "yes, I see vacuum!" If the vac line is disconnected, but not plugged, the EGR diag switch will not see vaccuum, and you'll set a code. So plug the vac line with a golf tee, and see if the stalling problem comes back.

Diagnosis #3: You could also fashion a block-off plate for the EGR system. Using a 10mm socket, disconnect the copper-colored EGR tube from the throttle body. Form a piece of sheet aluminum (home depot, by the HVAC heating ducts, or get a small steel sheet from the hardware aisle) that fits over the port; drill it like a gasket. Place the block-off plate between the TB and the EGR tube, and bolt the EGR tube back onto the TB (with the plate in the middle).

Remember that for diagnois #2 to work, the EGR valve must be fully closed. If the EGR doesn't close by itself, you'll need to do diag #3. If you have access to a compressed air source, you could use it to seat the EGR valve closed.

I had a similar problem. I was driving, and had to slam on the brakes- the car acted like crap afterwards... barely running, wanted to stall. I made it into a parking lot, turned it off, and looked everything over. It all looked fine, so I started it back up- but it wouldn't start. It started after 5 minutes. The problem didn't happen again for a while- until I hit my brakes again. It seemed to be a problem with my brake booster... until one day, I pulled into my driveway, and the problem happened. I stared at the motor for a while, then I figured I'd check the EGR diaphragm- and sure enough, it wasn't seated down all the way. I quickly turned on the air compressor, and applied air to the EGR vacuum fitting- the EGR snapped shut, and the engine ran great again.

I bought an EGR valve from Pep Boys- it was a universal, and didn't have an open slot to access the EGR diaphragm from the bottom, and the vac line input was in the wrong spot. I returned it, and spent an extra $10 getting a direct-fit one from GM. I hope this is the problem... but if it is, you've replaced a lot of parts for nothing...

I think the swinging of the battery gauge and the erratic CD player were caused by the alternator not being able to charge the system when the engine was barely running. You should definately check for bad grounds anyway. The fuel level gauge shouldn't be affected by anything; the fuel sender could be wearing out. And, obviously, an oil pressure gauge would also be fluctuating as the engine's idle was thrown off.

If it does turn out to be the EGR, after replacing the EGR, you should also clean the TB, IAC valve pintle, and IAC passageway to get rid of the carbon (deposited by the stuck-open EGR).

Find an $80 digital multimeter for $15 at http://www.sunpro.com 's garage sale link.

Keep us posted, and good luck, and go buy that GM/Helm service manual - http://www.helminc.com ! (You might also want to do searches on the V6 forum for the EGR experiences of myself and fellow V6 owners.)

 

There's no intake air valve under the passenger side valve cover. There's a regular intake valve, which accepts an air/Fuel mix from the intake manifold, but nothing flows "just" air. If your mechanic has run a compression test on a cylinder on the driver's side (either #2, #4, or #6) and saw abnormally low compression on a cylinder, they might suspect the intake valve.

(For anyone about to correct me about cylinder #s, the 2.8 order is different than the V8 order. On the 2.8, the #1 cylinder is the frontmost PASSENGER-SIDE cylinder. 2,4,6 are on the driver's side. On V8's, the #1 is on the driver's side.)

I don't see how an intake valve could work fine at some times, and horrible at other times. If you've bent a valve or skipped a tooth on the timing chain, your car would always run like crap.

You should ask the mechanic to perform an injector balance test. Basically, this ensures that each injector flows the same amount of fuel (as verified using the fuel pressure gauge) over the same amount of time.

 

Tom,

Excellent advice. You may have overlooked the last step in your "Diagnosis" listing, #4 - Remove the EGR valve and clean the valve base, pintle, and passages.

I'm probably wrong on this, but I thought the early V-6s used the MAP for EGR diagnosis instead of a vacuum sensor. Either way, if the valve is sticking open (a good possibility) your method should at least solve the operational part of the problem.

FWIW, I picked up one of those $15 DVMs from the Actron/Sunpro garage sale (CP7676) along with some other items, like a 'noid tester, extra backprobe conectors, fuel pressure test "T", etc. While not a laboratory precision device, they're more than adequate for most automotive electrical uses, and I don't get nearly as P.O.ed as I would if I dropped a $400 Fluke while working under the hood. There are (or, were) some pretty good deals on equipment there.

http://www.actron.com/cgi-bin/web_st...d=949707_13825
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Lunar,

As for the "air valve", your mechanic may be referring to the Air Injection Recation (A.I.R.) diverter valve on the right side of the engine. If this fails and opens inadvertently, you could suffer some fuel mixture problems and driveability issues, but is shouldn't stall the engine. He/she may also be referring to the heat riser valve in the exhaust system, at the right rear of the head and exhaust manifold, but that would only limit the engine RPM, not stall the vehicle.

The fact that you could rev the engine to near red-line on the tach should have been an indication that the exhaust system flow was not restricted. Perhaps you could pursuade your mechanic to, at the very least, provide you the exhaust system parts at his cost (not the resale cost) since they mis-diagnosed the problem. You still have a new exhaust system, so you should pay something for it, but their labor and parts cost "adder" should certainly be negotiaable.

Incidentally, NONE of us like spending money on things that provide us no benefit, so don't feel alone. Regardless of your situation, a waste of time/money is still a waste. It probably would be good if you could manage to acquire a cheap digital voltmeter (borrow one?) and at the least a $15 Haynes repair manual for your car. At least those manuals have some information and diagnosis. The rest you can get here, for free, as long as you can wait for the replies.

 

Yes

 

Vader, thanks; I hate to see people spend $$ with "poor" mechanics, or on their own, and not fix the problem. I'm all about DIY on the V6 forum! And yep, you're right, I forgot about the EGR passageway.. that's gotta be clogged up by now! Oh and there's no MAP on the 85-89 2.8's, they use a MAF, with the vacuum EGR. The 90-92 3.1's use MAP with a digital EGR. The 82-84's had the baro sensor (is that called a MAP, too?) for the CCC, and I'm not quite sure how that EGR activates. I had an '84 as a parts car, but was much more interested in the front subframe and body panels than the motor!

That's a great site, eh? After previously "spilling the beans" on my little secret site, I ran to pick up the other stuff I was planning to buy. I nabbed that injector tester, the probe-style DMM (sometimes it's a pain to hold a probe and crane my neck to see the meter), and some backprobes. Didn't see the fuel pressure test T, though- I guess I'll have to do another order! The sensor tester is great for the occasional bad MAF problem, too. (That cheap probe-style DMM does have a 10MOhm input, I asked Sunpro about it) Haha, I even bought the OBD2 manual because it was so cheap... it came in a cardboard box with foam padding! Just for a manual! Go figure.

Thanks, too, for that diagram of the #1 cylinders; people "correct" me all the time on the location of #1 for the 2.8. Hey, maybe I'll put the 2.8 #1 location diagram into my sig! (laughs)

 

Tom,

As I said, I was probably wrong. The trick is trying to remember that for the next time I see a V-6 post. Sooner or later it should sink in... maybe I need a bigger hammer?

I went back to the "garage sale" and I couldn't find the fuel pressure test 'T's either. They do have entire pressure test sets, but ten bucks for a 'T' was pretty cheap. They are the nuts for TBI and CPI engines without test ports. Incidentally, they sent me a "free" video with my order, also wrapped in foam. Go figure.


Any progress, Lunar?

 

I attempted to repost this as a "new" topic but it seems to have fallen off the board. By way of explaination for the unusual and spread out information I was posting I fully anticipated that A) I would not get a response at all B) I would get "flamed" so I did not want to give out a whole lot of fuel to the possible flamers.

Looks as if I owe ya'll an apology. And a serious Thank You for your positive responses. I now know where to come with any other problems I may come up with.

As for my problem, at this point it seems it has been found and at the least temporarily fixed. The mechanic called me later that day after he was removing all the new parts they were placing on the car for the process of elimination and at one point they found that if they moved a certain bunch of wires away from the engine that it straightened up right away, move them back towards the engine and it comes back. So they taped them up and zip tied them away from the engine. Over the last couple of days driving the problem has not presented itself at all, so it looks as if they found the problem. I cant believe I did not find it during my own trouble shooting...

I have known there was an electrical problem all along but with little experience with a problem like this I was just trying to be persistent and locate it myself while trying to learn at the same time. As for the EGR valve which is vacuum operated, below the caseing for the valve there is an opening large enough to reach a couple of fingers into and push the valve up which opens the seal and lets air enter which at idle will stall the engine (did I mention I am an amatuer?) however when you stall the engine this way it shimmies pretty good on the mounts which would obviously push any wires away from the engine and allow it to run sans the problem for a little while longer before the wire shifted back into its trouble spot. And I can only guess that the same thing was happening when revving the engine up.

I still have not tracked down the wires they were talking about since it is working I have been trying to catch up on my life and all the errands I was not able to get to while it was in the shop. When I was talking to the mechanic on the phone I was also talking with a client of my own and could not take the extra time to ask him for more details about what he found and decided to leave work early to catch him before he went home but I did not make it. I am going to stop in on Tuesday and get the details from them.

I thought about it and thought about it and finally understood what you were talking about urbman with regards to whether Item A is or is not bad if replaced. Why that was so difficult for me to comprehend is even more stupifying (I program logic controllers among other things for my job)

Again thanks everybody for restoring my faith in online communities and for all the help.

:hail: to all of you!

 

Now you HAVE to set aside some time to find those wires and get them fixed and kept out of the way.

~M~

 

LOL I dont mind now knowing the problem!
Shoot, I dont even mind being broke now that the problem has been identified!
Thanks for all your help though.
Now I am back to thinking about how to upgrade or buy another with a V8 and trick it out, a much more pleasent train of thought indeed.