Has anyone ever tried/heard of a Northstar engine in a thirdgen? They seem pretty cheap to come across, and I was just wondering if anyone has any experience with them. Supposedly they are rated at 300HP, which would be awesome in a thirdgen. There is a complete motor on ebay for sale right now with harness for $1650 bucks. What would be needed to make it fit, and to make a transmission fit?

 

I have done a little research on it, but decided that a well built sbc will out perform it by far.

One problem is that there isnt that many aftermarket parts avalible.

another one is that the computer programming required is pretty tough to figure out.

the overall swap would be easy i think....im not sure what trans it would use, it might be a BOP pattern, but either way thats not the hard part.

Some one had put one in a 4th gen....do a search

Good luck

 

I just found this Im convinced it can fit in a thirdgen engine bay now, just not sure about how the trans would bolt up.

http://www.willburns.com/northstar/


EDIT: Would a 700R4 from a V6 camaro be as strong as a V8 700R4? The northstar engine has a 60 degree bellhousing bolt pattern, and a 2.8/3.1L 700R4 can be made to fit behind(beside? :P ) it.

 

BTT

 

No the v6 700r4 is not as strong as a v8 one. But all the performance mods you can do to a v8 700r4 you can do to a v6 700r4. So it can be built to handle some power.

 

TOTALLY not worth it. Just putting a northstar in a RWD application requires all sorts of hassles because you have to turn around the intake manifold and I think you have to screw with a lot of the other crap (like all driven accessories). I've read about it a few times, but i'm short on attention-span when it comes to that sort of crap.

There are mods available, but since there's really only 1 shop that specializes in northstar stuff, you're going to pay through the nose.

So you pay big bucks, and you wind up with a small displacement, 275 horsepower high-rpm motor with no torque. No thanks. Spend less on a more powerful LT1 or a conventional small block.

 

I agree, how bout an LS6 swap? That'll get you some torque and a thoroughly modern and unique combo. Lots of parts to mod them with too.

 

Well, I would be happy with a bone stock northstar. They are rated at 300hp/300tq stock, which isnt to bad. Next time im at the junkyard im gonna look around for any, and if I can find one, I might get it since the junkyard I go to charges a standard $200 for a complete motor, no matter what it is. Another thing I am not sure about is the ECM. Does anyone know if the ECM also controls the stabilitrac system? How would I get around that?

Alot of the reason I would like to try this swap is because it hasn't been done before. Also, northstar engines are much cheaper to come across than LS1 or even LT1 engines. It doesnt look like it would be hard at all to physically put the engine in the car, but the big problem I see is the ECM. I can't find much information on caddy ECMs. I do however know that northstars have been swapped into many hotrods, and it is a popular swap for Fieros, so it can be done.

 

If you wanna be different and have some cash, you might wanna ask these guys. They also have a pretty sweet LS1 in a third gen. (hint, hint. )

 

Ward,

I have read that there are some problems with the swap due to acessories, cause the Northstar is normally transverse mounted. The new LH2 Northstar is designed to be mounted for rear-wheel drive vehicles, but they are brand new and I would assume they are hard to come by for cheap.

Hot Rod recently did an article on performance North Stars, I'll see if I can dig up the article and post the website of the shop that specialized in NorthStars.


But if you really want 32 valves you could always look into some ARAQ heads... http://www.araoengineering.com/Chevy/chevysmb.htm


Honestly the Northstar was designed for emissions, fuel economy and luxury (smooth idle, low vibrations and low noise), its not the best pick for a Muscle car, but it would certainly be unique.

 

Accessories are a problem I can live with. I have access to a MIG welder, so If I had to I could make brackets to relocate accessories. I am 90% sure I could actually get the engine bolted in the car, but I am still unclear on what needs to be done to make the ECM work. Im sure the harness would need to be lengthened/shortened in areas since its meant to be transversally mounted, but thats not too hard. I am thinking that maybe the early northstars might be non OBD-II and would make for a much easier swap. I dont know if the NS ECM is a 'PCM', meaning that it controls the drivetrain also, specifically the stabilitrac system.

 

Not sure how they are different but Cadillacs had non-standard computers. Just one example is you can't use standard GM code scanners on them.

 

I just found a major problem. The northstar is a front sump engine. To put it in my car I would need an aftermarket/custom oil pan. I wonder if it would clear a tubular K-Member...

 

January 2003 Hot Rod (typos and spelling errors are my own):

"Inherent Packaging Problems

Though the Cadillac Northstar has proven a very adaptable powerplant, Johnson cautions that it isn't a small block chevy and that its packaging presents inherent quirks. As situated in the Cadillac large-car chassis, the Northstar is transverse mounted to adapt to its front-drive transaxle. When placed in the traditional north-south (longitudinal) location, the alternator, power steering pump, air conditioning compressor, oil filter, and coolant lines are clustered on the drivers side of the engine. Since the water pump is located in the rear of the engine it may also be in the way of the steering and power brake booster. The water inlet and return lines must be routed forward. To simplify the packaging he (Alan Johnson of Cadillac Hot Rod fabricators) supplies an aluminum front cover and incorporates a Meziere beltdriven water pump. Further, Johnson also eliminates the water log with a Meziere electric water pump.

The Starter, on the other hand, is nested in the open valley between the cylinders. The long cast-aluminum oil pan requires that the front crossmember be reshaped or built to accomodate it, not the other way around. Older cars with Large engine bays will have no trouble receiving the Northstar and it ancillaries, but the tight space in '80s-and-newer vehicles present an accessories packaging problem. With hot rods, there is a width problem, For example the cylinder heads will interfere with hood sides on a '32-34 Ford. Regardless of the natual restrictions, AJ, has supplied engines for street rods, Fieros, early Cadillacs, El Caminos, Chevelles, the sand rail contingent, three GM show cars, and even a school bus."

Their website is http://www.chrfab.com

 

Hmm. Ok so right now the apparent problems are

1.) Front sump oil pan
2.) Accessory locations

 

BTT

Does anyone have any idea on what to do about the oil pan? Its really the only major obstacle left on the list. Does anyone know if an Olds Aurora is also front sump? The oil pan from a 4.0 aurora sould fit a 4.6 Caddy motor, they are both northstars.

 

Once you have over come the physical aspects there is another consideration. The Northstar equipped caddies had traction control. The traction control uses speed sensors at each wheel for input to the computer. Now I have read in other places that if the computer doesn't get the required input from the 4 sensors that it will enter a "low power" mode, essentially loosing a big chunk of it's HP.
Just more food for thought.

 

I have a 83 Toro Convertible and I would like to replace the 307. I read the thread on a third gen Northstar swap but it seemed to be focused on a longitudinal placement. Has anyone considered swapping Northstar eng/trans/ECU assembly in to a third gen Toro in the transverse direction? Thanks

 

Hi Bob , If by "Toro" you mean Oldsmobile Toronado , I'm afraid your not likely to find your answer here . Not being mean or unfriendly , it's just that this is a site devoted exclusively to 1982 through 1992 Chevy Camaro and Pontiac Firebirds only . Third gen "F" bodies , in other words . Now , since your type of car isn't covered under the scope of this site , I'd be looking for any Oldsmobile or even better Toronado sites where your far more likely to find people who know your answer .

PS , Why would ya want an engine whose intake manifold has to come off to replace the starter ?