what one would be the right choice for my freshly rebuilt mostly street driven performance engine? and why?

 

A good break in with some quality non synthetic oil for the first 3000 miles minimum. But you should really put more like 6 thousand miles till you put in mobile one.

 

Don't run synthetic until your rings have fully seated. Use a cylinder leakdown tester to see when they are fully seated. Some rings will seat in just a few miles and the leakdown tester will let you know when yours are seated.

I have a friend that used Amsoil in an off road car that he raced. He sheared an oil pump shaft and lost all oil pressure with 5 miles to go. He was in 1st place so he went for it and shut off the engine as he passed the finish line, he won.

When we pulled the engine apart it looked like it had just been put together with the exception of the oil pump shaft.

After your engine is broke in, it will be hard to go wrong with what ever synthetic you decide to use. They are all good.

You might check out this site. www.bobistheoilguy.com/

Ken

 

straight 30w dino for a fresh rebuild. synthetic is a mistake in a new engine w/flat cam, but i'd avoid it in any new engine till it's broke in

 

well im not made of money, so the initial break in lube will be the same 10W30 havoline that i have 2 cases of right now...


after that..... ?

 

m1 is hard to beat for quality, price, and availibilty, look at some oil sites, or better yet try what ever you want and send some out to blackstone labs and see what they have to say about it

 

http://www.1st-in-synthetics.com/dyno_test.htm

 

with the HP/TQ numbers you have it doesnt look like your racing it. with that in mind Royal Purple is too damned exspensive. probally the best, but pricey. I am not too keen on AMSOIL. Just cant buy into some of their claims. They make me feel too skeptical.

Therefore, I would use Mobil 1. Reasonable price, great properties, available everywhere, and is used by too many manufacturers to deny its worth.

I have not seen any manufacturers swearing by any other brand. Not to say it hasnt happened, but I havent seen it.

I personally use Mobil 1 in my daily driver (Sonoma) and Royal Purple is my street rod (Camaro).

 

lol.. the numbers in the sig are the stock L03 numbers.... a kinda before pic..

the new motor is a alum head 406 soild roller.... lil diff in the output numbers compared to the l03.....


in anycase, im pretty much getting mobil 1.... i was mostly looking for someone to give me a reason to chose the other 2..

 

Perhaps it's my "low" attitude, skepticism, pessimism, or whatever. Regardless, I'm about full of the AMSOIL advertising campaign and all it's implications. "1st in Synthetics" is a rather bold claim from a company that acquires the bulk of its synthetic polyalphaolefin base stocks from Exxon/Mobil.

According to the data available at Thomas Registers, this is a listing of all the major oil refiners and PAO producers in the western hemisphere, and many of those in the eastern hemisphere:

• OIL REFINERS
• 
  Atlantic Richfield
• Bass Enterprises
• BP/America - Cleveland, Ohio
• Chevron/Texaco
• Clark
• Exxon/Mobil
• Global Petroleum
• Hanley & Bird
• Kennecott
• Keener Oil
• Kerr McGee
• Koch Oil
• Marathon
• McMorgan-Freeport
• Occidental Oil & Gas
• PanCanadian
• Phillips
• Texaco
• Unocal
  
  
• P.A.O. Producers
• British Petroleum
• Chevron/Phillips
• Ethyl Corporation
• Exxon/Mobil - 30%
• Fortum
• Shell
• Texaco
• UBE Industries

Anything conspicuously absent from that list?

AMSOIL may have been the first to broadly market synthetic lubricants in the automotive field, but they certainly didn't invent it. Mobil withheld the marketing until complete research and testing could be performed, which is why Mobil 1 has a different formula than AMSOIL. Mobil was testing and applying synthetics as early as 1952.

The "bearing ball" load test that AMSOIL always touts as their "success" against other lubricants? That test is insignificant, unless you are testing an EP lube in an application requiring it. Rotational or linear friction-type bearings are not designed to nor installed in applications requiring EP lubes in any well-engineered assembly. If your bearing loading is approaching the limits where significant EP lube additives would be beneficial, you have a design flaw, and no lubricant will solve that.

I suppose I can stop there, even though there are more holes. I really don't want to annoy the users and marketers of AMSOIL, since it is a very good product. It should be.

Can you guess what my vote might be?

 

Although the questions were asked with only one "condition" defined, the answers require addressing at least two conditions. The first is the "freshly rebuilt" condition, in which case petroleum-based is preferred for the ring-seating function, as mentioned. The "street-driven" condition, assuming the rings are seated, is where synthetic can be introduced and would generally be considered superior to petroleum in the long term (at least from a wear protection standpoint).

As to which synthetic - well, there's a lot more opinion out there than objective data. Marketing is a lot of the reason for that. In our consumerism-based economy, you need to appeal to the government-educated, Madison Avenue brainwashed masses, or you'll die even if you have the best product out there. Penzoil in years past is a perfect example of having a marginal product technically but a very successful product in the market (I still wonder whether Arnie really had Penzoil in that tractor when it was new, or how many times it's been rebuilt over the years...).

As to who refines oil and who produces PAO, I respectfully ask: Who cares? 1st, synthetics are manufactured, not refined (although some ingredients may originate from petroleum); and 2nd, what's important is the performance of the finished product, and that's formulation and quality control, not ingredient manufacturing. Proper formulation is the result of research into the end use and how to best accomplish that. Of course, how to do that economically comes into play, as well as standardized requirements, and you have to be able to market, distribute, and sell the product sucessfully in order to make a profit. If you don't make a profit, you won't stay in business, and if you go out of business, even if you had the best product out there, in the end it doesn't benefit the consumer. All of the brands mentioned have done their homework and come up with a product and marketing plan with which they are individually comfortable.

SO...

Any of the brands mentioned will provide long-term performance and protection. Some other synthetic brands are only marginally better than a good petroleum-based product. Most any petroleum-based product with proper API and SAE rating will provide reasonable performance and protection. All you're really arguing over is degrees. And, the degree at which you are comfortable is a personal decision, not a concensus process. I have my personal favorite, and there are choices available within that favorite, and I will continue to use them until they no longer meets the criteria that I have established (which is a moving target as developments and improvements occur). My choice isn't all that important to you, since your criteria and standards are likely different than mine (if the input is different, why would you expect the output to be the same?). That there are different products made and marketed by different manufacturers with different market niches and targets is the result of what we call "competition" and a "free market".

FWIW, the use of a "poll" for this question invites opinions, not objective data (unless you happen to be in marketing). You could have asked the question without the poll and gotten just as good an answer in the end (perhaps better, because then it might not have been as cluttered with all this other chatter).

 

my appologies. I didnt notice the "old" part for the numbers. Yeah I think the numbers will be a bit different. I am going a similar route.

Ready to send the block to the shop. It is .030 over now and at least needs a re-hone but I may just go .040 over anyway.

I would only say Royal Purple if you race it or generally beat the heck out of it. Mobil held up well on the cars I have beat up. Royal Purple helped my 350 take ALOT of abuse (kinda young when I got it and really enjoyed the power).
So I will keep it around the garage for the new motor.

 

Like I said.

5-7 brings up several excellent points. You can feel comfortable with almost any PAO-based synthetic. He also touched on the Group III "synthetics", which are in reality only hydro-cracked petroleum products, and may only be marginally better than a good mineral oil lubricant as a result. Certainly, they aren't worth the price difference simply because the FTC has allowed them to be marketed under the "synthetic" category - which they really aren't by any accepted definition. Steer clear.

Ditto the Pennzoil thoughts. I used to use it with poor results.

 

A no brainer.

5 qts of M1 at Walmart for 18$. M1 can be bought everywhere nationwide and is the factory fill for many expensive high end production motors.

The rest is just hype.

 

My local Walmarts charges $24.22 for a 5 qt jug of M1. Used to be $18.88. There ad talks of falling prices. Castrol Syntec is still $18.88 though.

 

Castrol Syntec is not a true synthetic. its a "blend" as they put it.


thats one of the ones Vader and 5-7 were touching on....

 

Now convince me that these "expensive high end production" OEMs use M1 because it is technically superior.

Truth is, it's a mutual-back-scratching marketing agreement between them and Mobil.

 

Considering I never claimed any superiority I dont feel as if I owe you anything.

Any person however with a reasonal amount of common sense can deduce that Mobil 1 is a fine product considering that it is the exclusive oil for Porsche, Aston Martin, and the Benz AMG cars. In that market segment if there truely was a benefit to be had by AMSOIL or Redline or whatever it would be used instead as price is only a last consideration on the design table for those vehicles. Not to mention that Vette, Viper, and Cobra R also use Mobil 1. Well, Mobil 1 is either good stuff or its a huge propoganda campaign from Mobil with over 1/2 a dozen manufacturers of exclusive automobiles on the payroll to push this crap to everyone else in the marketplace.

People can run whatever they like IMO, but i will run M1 and use the money I save over Redline and AMSOIL to buy me a filter for the oil change and a 6-pack of Bud to pass the time as I break out the wrenches.

 

Your Moderator may be correcct on that one as well. Mobil 1 satisfies all requirements, is widely available, and is used as factory fill probably for the same reasons Goodrich and Goodyear tires are used by the Big Two rather than Nittos or Falkens. They're out there in big numbers, and play along with the big boys in their long-term supply contracts. They can gauranty adequate supplies at a fixed price for the term of the contrtact, and the general suspicion is that politics often enter into contracts negotiated by those large corporations.

Oddly, BMW uses and recommends a Group III "synthetic" on their "high-end" engines. Scary, isn't it?

 

Kinda scary considering it is only a modded dino sludge.

However there are pleanty of 200,000-300,000 mile BMWs that have been run on real deal dino sludge for the past decades and are still on the road, even Penzoil I would imagine, go figure.

However Mobil 1 exists as a Group IV product.

Again, I think that most of the fanfair out there is all hype, no matter what the label is; M1, Redline, AMSOIL, etc...

 

I actually havent bought from Walmart for a long while as Costco started selling M1, sorry about the price misinfo.

Castrol Syntec is a Group III product, not exactly synthetic, stick with M1, AMSOIL, or Redline.

 

That's the real message. Forget the marketing hype.

And please accept my apologies for my part in leading this thread astray (when it first appeared, I told myself I wasn't going to let it happen again...... ).

What was the question, again?

 

THE ORIGINAL QUESTION.

3 or 4 step process, depends on the shortblock.

1. Optional: Run motor for initial heat cycle and start up on good old 30 wt, Castrol. Drain, inspect. etc... Do this if you didnt build your own shortblock or if you did build it and are not compitent to be sure that everything was right.

2. Again, good old 30 wt for first 500 miles.

3. 10w-30 for the next 1000-3000 miles, depending on how much you like changing oil. The crosshatch by this time will be broken in properly and you should have an excelent ring seal by now, again crappy machine work mat never allow for proper break in.

4. If you like the idea of synthetic now is the time to switch, 10w-30. M1, AMSOIL, Redline, Royal Purple are all qaulity Group IV products. The other over the counter stuff that claims synthetic is Group III. A Group III actually starts its life as dino sludge but has an altered molecular bonding that qaulifies it as a "kinda synthetic". A group IV basestock consists of a true Polyolester/PAO basestock, real synthetic.

Dont forget a qaulity filter, run the Bosch, best bang for the buck.

However since the original poster is not actually interested in following any elses advice there is probably no real reason to discuss this topic further beyond this point.

 

what makes ya say that?


to be honest, i was kinda looking for a reason to justify buying royal purple over the mobil 1 stuff... and i thru amsoil in there since if i didnt, i expected people to jump in and holler about it as if i didnt know of it..


but since as you guys said, you dont see a real reason for me to get that over mobile 1, i'll just buy that...



i have a 2nd question though... i'll ask here rather then start a new thread..

is it a good idea to run synthetic stuff in a T56, or would that make the syncros slip or somthing?? i know it uses ATF not conventional oil, but stilll.....? mostly, im just looking for it to stay nice and clean.... im not really after that extra 2hp it may give.....

 

Yes, synthetic ATF is a good idea when a manual tranny calls for it (it's what got me started in synthetics, actually). Smoother shifts, less cold-weather stiffness (if that's an issue for you), less wear, etc.

 

...Not to mention less wear, longer life, less wear, lower friction, less wear. Did I happen to mention less wear?

And synthetic gear oil in the differential housing is also a good idea - for many of the same reasons. A typical differential is actually a somewhat inefficient device. The gears in a typical hypoid drive don't just mesh as directly as a helical bevel gearcase, but do a lot more sliding between the teeth, creating heat, friction, and inefficiency. Synthetics can increase the efficiency of power transmission significantly, not to mention the wear reduction.

Incidentally. if you have a cone-type posi axle and use Mobil 1 syngear, your STILL need to use the friction modifier (Posi additive) that you would use with a conventional gear oil. AMSOIL may not require that, since AMSOIL seems to have a bit more zinc and other EP additives. I'm not certain about that, but 5-7 can probably address that better. A Z-T, Detroit locker, or "toggle" type posi doesn't require the additive.

 

However this is not a universally true idea. Some diffs require a convential gear lube, check your manual or do research before filling that axle housing with Syn.

I run an Auburn Pro, the manual states only the use of a convential gear lube with modifier. I just change it frequently for piece of mind.

Example of someone who learned the hard way:

https://www.thirdgen.org/techbb2/sho...ghlight=auburn

 

IMHO, either Mobil Delvac 1, Redline, or German Castrol. The Delvac is nice because you can usually get it from a trucking supply store. Right now my IROC is on a 50/50 Mix of Delvac and Redline. Delvac has no Molybdenum but Redline has tons of it. So, for me, it is a match made in heaven.

http://www.celligent.com/tim/iroc/misc/DCP_2008.JPG
http://www.celligent.com/tim/iroc/misc/DCP_2017.JPG

Tim

 

whats Molybdenum, and what does it do?

 

all i found is that its a metal?? why do i want a metal in my oil?

 

Moly. It's in all the assembly lube that you use when assembling engines. It's in the lube used when you install a cam.

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/moly.html

Tim

 

Molybdenum disulfide, actually, as Bob says.

Has one undesireable property of also being a heat barrier. Okay in low speed applications (ball joints, for instance) or short-term usage (like cam break-in), not good in high speed applications (like wheel bearings).

 

Don't tell Redline that. They make THE best wheel bearing grease ...

http://www.redlineoil.com/redlineoil/cv2ti.htm

... and, yes, it does contain moly.

Tim

 

Yep.

 

if it blocks heat transfer from the rotor hub to the bearings then its probably not such a bad thing.

 

:lala:

Tim

 

Castrol makes a "Syntec Blend" and regular "Syntec". The blend is about half the price of the other. I was referring to regular.

 

Since the heat is being generated in the bearings, you don't want to keep the heat from transfering from them. That's what the moly does.

It may not be much of an issue with tappered roller bearings, which all 3rd gens had from the factory. But, you can learn a lot by studying the effect on less robust parts. Case in point was the ball-type front wheel bearings on the '57. With moly grease, which was stated to be good for wheel bearings, they would fail in about 10k miles (lasted a little longer with a synthetic moly grease). With non-moly grease, they have lasted for years with no deteriation.

Red Line may be getting away with it in less sensitive applications, but the lesson is that your bearings aren't lasting as long as they could if the grease didn't have moly.

But, TRAX, what I was agreeing to was not to tell Red Line (since you don't want them to know...). So, mum's the word, okay?

 

What eventually caused the falure of the bearings, surface breakdown? Or did they drive away some of the grease? Your right about the tapered bearings. Last week I put in new rotors along with new bearings, seals, and synthetic moly grease and the area around the bearings doesnt even generate much heat after highway use. Alot better then before, where the previous owner cranked down the castle nuts. Old bearings got so hot they and the spindles turned blue.

 

Surface breakdown. They were well-covered with grease still.

Gads, this is really far from the originator's questions. Sorry about that...

 

Look man I gotta say this. Between the ages of 16 and probably 21 i thought synthetic oil was the best and I used it. Now I've been reading and reading and reading and I can find about 100 reasons to not use synthetic oil. It's a waste of money and too viscous, especially in cold weather. I strongly recommend a basic petroleum oil. Preferably from GM, they use it for a reason, not cost, qaulity. Just my 2 cents, but I'll never go back to straight synthetic, a blend is ok because it's only like 15% synthetic.

 

Okay, that's it. We're back to the basic mis-information.

Dude, it's been real, it's been fun, but I can't say it's been real fun. Need more info? PM the sane responders; email the companies mentioned - but this needs to end now.