I just bought one for my '89 GTA last night. Got the last one for my car through Summit. I hear ADS made really good chips. Just wondering if anyone had any experience with them.
Thanks.

 

I've got one; the most noticable difference was the delayed torque convertor lockup (for my automatic transmission). As to other improvements, well, I'm not sure.


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-Tom P (Hot rodded 1986 Firebird 2.8l) from http://www.f-body.net/mailbag/3rd/3rd_mailbag.html message boards
---Think your car could be pic of the week? Visit http://www.f-body.net for details!

 

I kinda like the hypertech street runner, haven't had any computer related problems in 6 years. I did feel a noticeable improvement in throttle response just from the chip swap. Seems to me that it's the mods that you make that can really take advantage of an aftermarket chip or maybe it's vice versa there.

 

What exactly is delayed torque convertor lock-up? Is there a noticeable throttle response with the chip?

 

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but you wasted your money.

I HAD an ADS Supersh!t in my car, before I got into PROM burning. I actually have looked inside the code of the chip, and it does VERY LITTLE! They added a little spark in the mid-range, increased the locking speed of the TC by 3 mph, and slightly increased the VE table in the mid-range @ WOT. VERY minor changes.

But now the BAD PART. The tables are incomplete. YUP, they screwed up the tables. They transposed some of the modifications to the spark table such that at some rpm ranges the highest WOT setting had less advance that the next lower setting. Further, the rpm range just below and above had much higer spark...clearly f'd up the spark table. But the worst thing is they forgot to modify the certain rpm ranges, so the spark curve was jumping all over the place.

Just correcting the spark tables so it made a nice transistion between various rpm ranges and load ranges (as one of my first test PROMs), greatly reduced the knock counts (and retards) I was experiencing.

Finally, when I popped open their PROM, it was one of the cheesiest made PROMs I ever saw. They didn't even have the foresight to put the PROM in a ZIF socket, so I could at least re-use the carrier for my own custom PROM or reuse their PROM...they soldered it in.

If you can cancel the order DO IT! And learn to burn your own PROM. You then will have a PROM specific to your own car. These "time honored" mods like bumping up the fuel pressure, relocating the MAT and TB bypass are actually VERY BAD, unless you write a PROM to compensate for the abundance of fuel you are giving your engine. When I first started to analyze my engine (with those time honored mods and my ADS Supersh!t) I immediately found that I was running WAY OVER RICH. I am STILL tweaking my tables to lean out my engine to get it performing optimally.

My young nephew could write a better PROM than ADS did. Its one thing to write a PROM that does very little (like JET and the other aftermarket/off-the-shelf chips are), but its entirely another when the modifications they make are poorly done. NONE of the aftermarket "off-the-shelf" chips are of much use, and many actually kill performance.

 

Glenn, did you ever check out an ADS chip meant for a MAF system? Someone told me once (I think Brian K) that maybe I should run at the track with my original GM chip back in.

1BadGTA, a delayed torque convertor lockup is what it says... the computer with a stock chip engages the torque convertor pretty quickly. This can make the car seem sluggish, since driving at low RPM's doesn't bring the car closer to the engine's "powerband". So when the TCC lockup is delayed, the engine runs at higher RPM's, and seems more powerful.

Throttle response seemed the same...


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-Tom P (Hot rodded 1986 Firebird 2.8l) from http://www.f-body.net/mailbag/3rd/3rd_mailbag.html message boards
---Think your car could be pic of the week? Visit http://www.f-body.net for details!

 

Tom, no...I have not reviewed the BIN for the MAF version. But I still think it would be a complete waste of money. ASSUMING they had better quality control on their MAF version, they STILL would do very little AT BEST. And if their quality control is anything like their SD PROM, it is would complete crap.

Also, their concept of locking/unlocking the TC based on MPH is stupid. It should be based on RPM not MPH. The whole concept of a higher stall TC is to get you out of the hole and into the powerband quicker. This all happens in 1st gear. After that, you do NOT want to be slipping, but locking to put as much of that power to the ground; instead of converting it to "tranny killing" heat like ADS does.

Why do you think so many people install a TC lock switch on their car? To lock the TC so they get as much power to the rear wheels AFTER they have launched their car an gotten into the powerband in 1st.

I've played with the TC locking on my car, and I have actually decreased the speed that my TC locks by a couple of MPHs. I found this gave me the quickest 0-60 time from this change to the PROM. The worst times were found when I delayed the locking of the TC to a higher MPH.

If you want a better TC (and don't buy cheap crap if you love your tranny), get a higher stall speed TC...that's what you want.

 

Well, I was hoping to hear nothing but good things about this product. I guess I'll be sending it back now unless someone can convince me otherwise. I thought aftermarket chips were pretty good. I guess not. Can this chip actually do harm?

 

Oh, I never said that the TCC delay was the best thing about the chip! I myself noticed a decrease in ET with a TCC forced-lockup switch installed on my '86. 1BadGTA asked for the most noticable difference, and that's what I noticed after the chip swap; then I defined it for him.

I never said I was striving after a better TC through use of the ADS Superchip. Nor did I say I was looking for a higher-stall convertor.


------------------
-Tom P (Hot rodded 1986 Firebird 2.8l) from http://www.f-body.net/mailbag/3rd/3rd_mailbag.html message boards
---Think your car could be pic of the week? Visit http://www.f-body.net for details!

 

Sorry if you got the wrong impression Tom. I was directing only the first paragraph towards you.

The entire discussion on the TC locking is just my general comment on it to 1BadGTA.

 

You're right; I did get the wrong impression. Sorry! I think I'm experiencing some "male PMS" lately!

Thanks again for the info regarding the ADS Superchip. I think when Spring rolls around, I'll put the GM stocker back in as my first "mod"- or is that "un-mod"?


------------------
-Tom P (Hot rodded 1986 Firebird 2.8l) from http://www.f-body.net/mailbag/3rd/3rd_mailbag.html message boards
---Think your car could be pic of the week? Visit http://www.f-body.net for details!

 

Glenn,

Some very interesting statements about aftermarket chips! I have learned alot.

I have an ADS chip in my car. It was there when I bought the car, so I can not comment on its performance effects.

However, since Glenn seems to know a thing or two about PROM burning, could you give us a real high overview of what one needs to purchase and learn in order to burn their own chip? Is it only beneficial to racers? Do the aftermarket chips provide only minor mods because they are assuming a (relatively) stock engine and street use?

Just curious mostly - I will probably leave my chip as is, since I only use the car for street driving.

TIA!


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'88 GTA w/ t-tops
355 TPI, Edelbrock headers,
Flowmaster exhaust, cold air induction,
MSD 6AL ignition, ADS chip,
BMR strut tower brace
=====
Stereo:
Panasonic CQ-DFX700U
Infinity 4x6, Alpine 6x9
Rockford-Fosgate Punch 400a4
80 watt Bazooka sub

 

...actually, never mind.

I did some poking around in the PROM section and found lots of info. Also there is apparently a tech article on this site that discusses it (which I am going to try to find next)

Gotta love all the great info you can get from a site like this!

 

First, I believe PROM buring is highly useful for even a stock or mildly modded car with just a few bolt ons. In fact, it is the perfect time to start learning as you won't be too far off the original GM PROM. So you can see the effects of your tweaking.

This is why I started, because starting in the spring, I plan to modify my car more extensively and I wanted to have a good handle on PROM burning BEFORE I try and get a more modified engine working.

The best place to start to learn about PROM burning is by reading Traxion's article at this url https://www.thirdgen.org/newdesign/tech/promintro.shtml

Go to every link mentioned in the article, especially ECMGUY's and DYI_EFI. Also, I found it very useful to expand the "topic list" for the PROM board to show all posts in the last year. And then, start reading from the oldest post to the most recent posts. A lot of the questions I initially had were already asked, so I had 99% of all my questions answered without even having to ask them.

I spent about 3 weeks just reading (a couple of hours a day) all the links and posts. I even printed off a lot of them. I probably spent more time reading than I had to, but my PROM burning equipment was my Christmas present, so I had to do something while I was waiting for Santa Claus.

For an EPROM Programmer, I went with the xtronics "Pocket Programmer". It is the cheapest Programmer (Burner) that I was able to find that works off the parallel port. The Needhams ISA Programmer is cheaper, but it requires a desktop with a free ISA slot. My desktop is too new for the older ISA slot and I don't have any more slots available even if it did.

Also, I use my notebook more for my Diacom, etc, and I like portability...thus the parallel port was more attractive.

For a UV Eraser, I went with the Datarase II without the timer. I have plenty of alarm clocks and timers, so why spend an extra $20.00.

For the Editor (that makes the changes to the Binary File for the PROM), I chose Tuner Cat. For the SD TPI 730 ecm, Tuner Cat is excellent as the 8D is very well hacked.

For other ecms, Tuner Cat may not be as good as they may not have as many of the features of the PROM hacked. It is best to ask people what they prefer for an Editor based on your own particular ECM.

ALL of the things I mention above are in Traxion's article. He provides links to all the items I mentioned above, plus others. I was just giving your the benefit of my own review for my particular ecm.

The actual mechanics of reading/altering/re-burning a PROM is very simple. That is why I consider thost "off-the-shelf" PROMs such a rip-off. They only alter very little and the simplest of changes at that. It just pissed me off, that they did the changes badly and ignored what they SHOULD have done.

My ADS chip put far too much spark advance in the lower-to-mid range which caused me a lot of spark knocks. YET, after 3,600 rpm, they left the spark advance pretty much as GM had...at around 30*. For good performance and still being able to run lower grades of fuel, they should have increased it to around 36* at 3,600 rpm.

Probably the coolest thing I like about PROM burning, is I can burn a couple of specific PROMs for specific uses. If I am going to make a long highway trip, I can be a little conservative on the timing, invoke "Highway Mode" and improve my gas mileage by 10-20% while running 87.

Conversely, when I am in town, I can swap a second PROM (I have 2) that advances the timing a little, put in some higher octane and get some extra performance.

But, it all involves time to play with it. That is the time consuming part and where you quickly learn, what works and what does not. But I enjoy this kind of tinkering AND the coolest part is...you don't get dirty doing it or scrapped knuckles.

 

Well, I've been talking to some friends about the ADS chip, and I've heard it actually works quite good. I don't know what to do. Send it back or keep it?

 

How are they quantifying there answer? I suggest learning to read and burn an eprom, and start by reading and seeing what your ADS chip is doing. While there is a lot to be said for "seat of the pants" diagnostics, it isn't very accurate if you have the placebo effect.

I thought my ADS was "fine" too, until I spent the time to learn how to burn PROMs and I looked inside. I was trying to track down some knock retard problems and found out why...the ADSh!t.

FYI, since I've started burning my own PROM, my idle is very smooth and I am getting my VE map closer and closer...with more performance and better gas mileage to boot. The great thing is, when I mod my engine in the future, it won't cost me a red cent to alter the prom again (other than the electricity to fire up my computer and the burner).

[This message has been edited by Glenn91L98GTA (edited January 06, 2001).]

 

Several years ago i bought the ADS street Chip, all I noticed was a delayed TC lockup, and a little more mid-range timing advance...as evident by the pings....

It now resides in my glove box for the heck of it.

 

1BADGTA, contact Ed Wright at www.fastchips.com

$350 for a custom chip. He keeps re-burning until he "gets it right".
I know several people who have his custom chips and love it. Some people take a run on a diacom with a labtop and record it to disc. Then...send it to him. It doesnt get any more custom than that!

I am sending out my order to him on Monday. Oh yea, he's the only chip burning company that tunes for part throttle. The others only do WOT tuning...Ed does both.

------------------
91 Formula
305 TPI 5speed
1LE/G92/WS6
Custom K&N cold air intake, SLP airfoil, ported & hi-polished plenum, March pulleys, TB coolant bypass,Crane AFPR (47psi),94 octane,Crane Extruded Alum. 1.6 full roller rockers,10*BTDC,MSD coil,MSD6AL, Holley 9mm Annihilator Laser shot 50 wires, Ac Delco cap,rotor and plugs, Bosch O2sensor, SLP 1 5/8 headers,SLP catback,3:73s,180* t-stat,JET 195* fan switch, Macewen white face gauges, Autometer gauges, Zoom hi-performance clutch.
Street legal with stock throttle body, runners,intake manifold,cam, and heads.

[This message has been edited by theformula (edited January 06, 2001).]

[This message has been edited by theformula (edited January 06, 2001).]

 

Or, for $129.95 for the programmer, $69.95 for the TunerCat Editor and $39.95 for the UV Eraser, ($240 total) you can program your own. The only other major investment is just your time to learn. Go to Traxion's article https://www.thirdgen.org/newdesign/tech/promintro.shtml as a great starting point. It has links to all the places to get the equipment, etc. Some excellent links and great explanations.

Its definitely the easiest part of the car to work on. What are you going to do if you mod your engine again? Also, I don't think Ed does UNLIMITED burns for you. But if you want to pay an extra $90 (and learn nothing in the process), it's your money.

 

I didnt say Ed didn't unlimited burns, I meant he burns the SAME chip over for you if it is not to your liking. If you get more mods later on, theres a $150 fee.

How long did it take you to figure out the software you got for Christmas Glenn? The only thing deterring me from buying is I have no way of testing when the chip is optimal. I don't own a G-tech, and all the tracks are closed.
Later

 

Formula, I began reading up on PROM burning and playing with the software in the beginning of December. I spent a couple of hours a day for a couple of weeks. I really didn't need ALL that time, but I had to wait until Christmas to get my "toys", so I put that time to good use.

As for "quantifying" your changes, I prefer to use a scan tool to get me "pointed" in the right direction to modifying my tables.

The most difficult table to determine changes for is the VE table based on RPM and MAP. I set my eprom to have a BLM set at 128 (min and max) and then monitor the INTs on my scan tool for a variety of driving conditions.

I then translate all the Diacom GDF files into DBF and paste all those into a spreadsheet. Lastly I cut out all the "open loop" modes and areas that have the AF ratio not equal to 14.6 (I sort on the columns to make it easy) as I am only interested in the "closed loop" readings. Lastly, I sort the entire spread sheet by RPM/MAP/INT to get it in an easy to use order. Then I just get the corresponding RPM/MAT area in the sorted data that matches the table and see what INTs I am getting for that range.

Depending on the INT I am getting for that range, I then adjust the VE tables accordingly, values greater than 128 need to be richened, values less than 128 need to be leaned. That gets all the part throttle part layed out for you, and from the basis of the trends...you can fill out the remainder of the table for WOT.

As for quantifying, Diacom with the SD ecm (like you and I have) records at just over 6 frames a second at its highest frequency of 1. I have an excel spreedsheet that I plot my a "run" from 0 to 80 mph (from an on ramp on the freeway) and use the 20 mph to 70 mph range. If I have more road (and fewer cars on the road, I may take it a bit higher). This shows up effects quite well until you hit the limits of diminishing returns.

Lastly, when you don't find anymore improvement in the 0-80 test...you HAVE to take it to the track.

There are other methods you can use (read the older posts over the last year on the PROM Board, especially Pablo's). A scan tool SHOULD NOT be an ends to a means. I find it useful for "pointing me" in the right direction to quantify the changes I am making. You SHOULD do plug readings and look for signs of overly rich and overly lean. Any glazing or speckles mean "too lean" and possible knock occuring.

I should point out, that if you DON'T have a scan tool, you won't be able to help Ed narrow down your eprom either. I would also confirm "how many free burns" he does even for just the existing mod. I recall someone I was helping interpret Diacom readings was beginning to panic because he hit his 4th eprom and I believe that he only got 5, so he was on his last one.

If you don't have a scan tool, you won't be able to easily see if the chip is optimal for you. I guess that is what most PROM burners are hoping. I can easily get my prom to run smoothly and perform well...but to get it "perfect" is very time consuming. But the rewards are very much worth it: smooth running engine, great throttle response, excellent performance and improved gas mileage. Probably better emissions too, but I no longer have to test, so that is no concern. I figure the money I save in gas (I have already seen a 10% improvement in my city driving), will EASILY pay for all this equipment and time spent.

I actually have fun doing it. But if I didn't find cars fun, I probably wouldn't be posting on this website. It REALLY is the easiest part of the car to work on.

[This message has been edited by Glenn91L98GTA (edited January 07, 2001).]