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Head Cam and Intake Combo

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Old Jan 13, 2004 | 11:27 PM
  #1  
trickedout02's Avatar
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From: Sumter, South Carolina
Engine: 302 5.0
Head Cam and Intake Combo

What do you think about the Comp Cam 268H + Edelbrock Etech Heads + Power plus cyclone vortech intake manifold

Would that be a decent combo or would the cam not perform well with the etech heads... I am on a fairly tight budget..

oh yeah they are going on a L48 350
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Old Jan 14, 2004 | 04:37 AM
  #2  
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ede
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i think i'd never buy anything from edlebrock
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Old Jan 14, 2004 | 12:51 PM
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Engine: 350, Vortecs, 650DP
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If you're on a tight budget, why are you sending the money on those heads instead of the actual Vortec heads?

Spend the extra for the Edelbrock intake. A friend of mine bought one of those Powder Puff intakes; what a big mistake.

There's an ad in the latest CHP magazine for rebuilt Vortec heads for $450. That's scew in studs, .500" lift springs, machined for that lift, and S/S valves.

For another $50, you can get 2.02"/1.60" S/S valves.
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Old Jan 14, 2004 | 12:59 PM
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Originally posted by ede
i think i'd never buy anything from edlebrock
the manifolds and carter clone carbs are ok...

but i dont like their heads at all.
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Old Jan 14, 2004 | 01:20 PM
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ede
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dude i guess it depends on how you define "ok" to paraphrase our former president. i don't like edlebrock products anymore. for carbs i use holley or demon and intakes from weiand.
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Old Jan 14, 2004 | 01:42 PM
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Car: yy wife, crazy.
Engine: 350, Vortecs, 650DP
Transmission: TH-350
Axle/Gears: 8.5", 3.42
I agree with the Holley & Demon carb thing, but Weiand doesn't make a Vortec style intake manifold.

And before you snap back, the E-Tech heads are aluminum Vortecs.
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Old Jan 14, 2004 | 02:36 PM
  #7  
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lol true, i was just generalizing, bad thing to do i guess. point is not seen a lof of quality parts with edlebrock on them lately. have seen and heard of some edlebrock stuff that shouldn't of made it out the door.
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Old Jan 14, 2004 | 03:32 PM
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Car: 86 firebird with 98 firebird interi
Engine: pump gas 427sbc Dart Lil M 13.5:1
Transmission: Oldani TH400 w/ BTE 9" convertor
Axle/Gears: 31 spline Moser/full spool/4.11Rich
[QUOTE
For another $50, you can get 2.02"/1.60" S/S valves. [/B][/QUOTE]

DO NOT do the bigger valve, been there done that and I lost 40cfm of flow @28" they went from flowing 239cfm down to 199cfm due to serious shrouding of the valves. Port work yes, bigger valves NO!!
Also I 'd be less inclined to install aluminum heads on anything but a higher compression motor say...10:1 or 10:5 other wise becasue of the aluminums ability to lose heat quickly you'll be losing out on power for an effiecent burn. A fellow racer changed only his 215 Dart iron Eagles to identical 215 Dart Aluminum heads and lost .3 once everything was retuned to optimize the new aluminum heads. I have heard other stories of similar instances from different racers at different times but I have no personal experience with it.
Also before you consider these "great deal" vortec heads get the exact casting number since there are now some less than honerable shops selling those vortec heads, but they are actually 305 trk vortec heads..."but they are vortec heads" so it's not telling the whole truth but is yet being honest!
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Old Jan 14, 2004 | 04:43 PM
  #9  
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Car: yy wife, crazy.
Engine: 350, Vortecs, 650DP
Transmission: TH-350
Axle/Gears: 8.5", 3.42
Here's some gold for you from Gary Penn of GM Performance Parts.

Two years ago we undertook an exhaustive (no pun intended) study of the Vortec head in numerous modified states with different valve sizes, throat cuts, valve jobs, port mods, guide mods, etc. We used up about 10 heads, numerous valves, and about $50,000 worth of labor. The study generated 100+ pages of flow and swirl data,which I have at my desk.

Here is the short version. Out of the box, .480 valve lift, 350-400 HP dependant on the CR, cam, ring seal, oil control, blah, blah, blah.

More than .480 lift, cut the guides down to clear the retainers.

Straight mill up to .060 safely, .080 with low CR of 10 to 1 or less. 0.100 is living on borrowed time.Always use flat top or dished pistons to enhance flame travel and intake swirl.

Angle mill up to 1 degree (about .110 off the exhaust side, .000 off intake side) safely for about 12 to 1 CR with flat pistons with little valve relief. Angle mill to 2 degrees (about .200 off exhaust side)if you like to live on the edge, it has been done.

Larger valves increase flow, chamber mods not needed, trade off between shrouded verses unshrouded valves not worth the decrease in laminar flow and swirl.

Throat cutting behind larger valves compliments the larger valves. Open the throat to the seat, remove the edge left by the cutter in the port.

Blend the seats into the chamber, you don't want an edge here to disrupt flow and create turbulence.

"Bowl blend" and shortened guide in port also improves flow. Taper and blend the iron boss.

Minumal porting increases flow, too much increase in port size or loss of the benefits of the shape of the stock port will decrease efficiency.

Vortec heads (and most others) like straight stemmed valves. Undercut valves create unwanted turbulence and a decrease in intake charge velocity (they add volume (slowing the gases)to the overall "port" volume just behind the valve where max velocity is required.)

Generally speaking, Vortec's stall at between .500 and .550 valve lift. This is where flow actually begins to decrease. But their true strength is low lift flow which gives more area under the total flow curve. And if you think about it how long are your valves at peak lift? They spend much more time at .400 and below, where the Vortecs outperform most other heads. This combined with high velocity, lack of turbulence and superior combustion chamber design are where the Vortecs stand out.

Unported, with all the other tricks in place, the Vortecs will flow about 235-240 CFM at .500 I and 165-170 cfm at .500 E, on a 4" bore at 28" H2O, with clay radiused port opening. With some careful porting there is another 5-10 CFM or so to be had. But again the low lift numbers are unsurpassed at .100, .200, .300, etc. lift. For example the Vortecs flow as much air at .400 as .500 and no 23 degree head that I'm aware of can match them at .200-.300 lift for the combination of flow and swirl. Even the Fast Burn head can't touch them at low lift, it's ports are too big (flow is similar, swirl is less), it does of course out perform them at lift over .500.

Unported Vortecs with the "tricks" can produce 500 HP on well built, high CR, drag race short block. 425-450 HP is more realistic for a killer street engine running on pump gas.


This line..... "Larger valves increase flow, chamber mods not needed, trade off between shrouded verses unshrouded valves not worth the decrease in laminar flow and swirl." ... is saying they do improve flow, but if you try to unshroud the chambers you lose one of the important attributes of the Vortec heads; Swirl.

Last edited by AJ_92RS; Jan 14, 2004 at 04:47 PM.
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Old Jan 14, 2004 | 05:39 PM
  #10  
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IHI
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From: Waterloo, Iowa
Car: 86 firebird with 98 firebird interi
Engine: pump gas 427sbc Dart Lil M 13.5:1
Transmission: Oldani TH400 w/ BTE 9" convertor
Axle/Gears: 31 spline Moser/full spool/4.11Rich
So can one test swirl on a Super Flow bench? and is that why I lost so much flow? when the bigger vlaves were installed? Here is how the numbers are on my flow sheet in front of me for the Vortecs I had then sold after this modifcation and the flow test came back: These are intake readings only, exhaust side only lost on average 3cfm.

Stock 2.02/1.60 all cfm @ 28"

.100 61.9 63.1

.200 124.8 109.6

.300 185.1 153.7

.400 221.7 186.7

.500 234.5 199.4

.550 234.5 199.4


When reading this there is supposed to be 3 columns, but it lumps them side by side when it posts. Guys that know what is posted will understand it.
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Old Jan 14, 2004 | 06:42 PM
  #11  
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Transmission: TH-350
Axle/Gears: 8.5", 3.42
Hey... I didn't say it, he did.

This guy is supposedly a engineer at GM.

FWIW, I agree with you. I'm keeping both my pair at 1.94/1.50 (maybe 1.6) just because I'm going to maximize the low-mid lift flow potential of those heads. IMO, it's silly to try and run a head like those if you're looking for +5500 RPM HP. They're a good head, but should be used within their limits. The cam I'm using is .492" lift so they'll be right there.

Just curious... did you unshroud the valves? Those exhaust flow numbers rock :rockon:

Too bad about the intakes.

Last edited by AJ_92RS; Jan 14, 2004 at 06:51 PM.
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Old Jan 14, 2004 | 08:20 PM
  #12  
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IHI
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From: Waterloo, Iowa
Car: 86 firebird with 98 firebird interi
Engine: pump gas 427sbc Dart Lil M 13.5:1
Transmission: Oldani TH400 w/ BTE 9" convertor
Axle/Gears: 31 spline Moser/full spool/4.11Rich
Originally posted by AJ_92RS
Hey... I didn't say it, he did.

This guy is supposedly a engineer at GM.

FWIW, I agree with you. I'm keeping both my pair at 1.94/1.50 (maybe 1.6) just because I'm going to maximize the low-mid lift flow potential of those heads. IMO, it's silly to try and run a head like those if you're looking for +5500 RPM HP. They're a good head, but should be used within their limits. The cam I'm using is .492" lift so they'll be right there.

Just curious... did you unshroud the valves? Those exhaust flow numbers rock :rockon:

Too bad about the intakes.
No, no, those are the intake only flow numbers!! The way I had it laid out when I typed it and the way it ended up here were two totally different things and that's why I could see guys mis interpreting those flow numbers. The .100, .200, .300 etc..is the amount of valve lift. then we'll take the numbers at .200 lift for ex. in stock form they flowed 124.8 cfm after the bigger valves were installed the flow dropped down to 109.6cfm which is a huge loss especially at that low of a lift and the fact these vortec flow incredible at low lift hence all the power they can produce. generally speaking they say if you can pick up and extra 15-20 cfm of flow it's worth about .1 at the track. So the fact I lost 15 cfm of flow would generically make me .10 slower. As soon as I picked the heads up and we went over the numbers, they were sold as they were useless to me. If the GM engineer actually saw these vortecs with the 2.02 installed, how in the heck could he not see how shrouded they became. They literally had to cut into the side of the cc chamber to make it fit so the valve was sitting in a hole so to speak, until that thing was at full lift for that split second it would not allow efficent airflow around the valve period. And these vortecs are built around being "efficent" from the factory so I kinda messed with a good thing I never did lay a head gasket on them to see how much material could've been removed to help since the documentation showed me everything I needed to know. I was going for a mild low second motor, but after selling everything below and buying some AFR 210's I'm shootin for 10's...and pump gas Everything in the picture was'nt even a month old when I offed it, but wtf, bigger better plans...plus I'm a little wiser now
Attached Thumbnails Head Cam and Intake Combo-vortec-package-kit-001  
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Old Jan 14, 2004 | 09:43 PM
  #13  
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Car: yy wife, crazy.
Engine: 350, Vortecs, 650DP
Transmission: TH-350
Axle/Gears: 8.5", 3.42
OH...

The way you put 2.02/1.60...

You should have left out the "/1.60" part.
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Old Jan 15, 2004 | 01:40 AM
  #14  
trickedout02's Avatar
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ok, now, pretty much all I have gotten outta that book was edelbrock heads are not the way to go.... no one has mentioned anything about the cam...


So think it would be better spent money to just buy a rebuilt vortec head, and go with a better intake manifold. As for edelbrock and holley goes on the carbs, I will take edelbrock over holley any day,

why,

I don't like to retune carbs... and holley is cursed with it.
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Old Jan 15, 2004 | 06:53 AM
  #15  
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IHI
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From: Waterloo, Iowa
Car: 86 firebird with 98 firebird interi
Engine: pump gas 427sbc Dart Lil M 13.5:1
Transmission: Oldani TH400 w/ BTE 9" convertor
Axle/Gears: 31 spline Moser/full spool/4.11Rich
How much strip how much street? You wanna duration in the 230 range-actual 230 range. as much lift as you can get and then a LSA of around 110-114 for a strret strip a car. These will give you good torque and great mid range ithout having to wing the heck out of the motor. If all you want is low 12's and streetable I would personally recommend Lunati Bracket Master II 300/300 .515/.515 hyrdaulic.
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