Token

My car won't start. I've posted this topic a few times, but it still will not start. The car cranks, the car gets fuel, and the plugs fire. The problem? The car won't turn over. It will occasionally fire. I took a plug out and the spark its getting is a dull red color, and doesn't look very big.

I've replaced wires, cap, rotor, ignition module, plugs, and coil; I've relocated the ground wires to ensure a good contact surface; and I've checked to make sure the valves are indeed opening. I have no clue what to do you guys. I am a few cuss words away from taking it in.

The problem all started after my project (in the sig). The car ran at one point with the new mods, but poorly. The timing was probably the culprit, but I don't know how good the spark was then. I'm guessing it probably has something to do with my problem. Please help you guys, I'm about ready to quit this hobby

Token

My power keeps going out so I have to keep retyping what I wrote. Anyway, my timing light rarely goes off, but the spark plug wires are fine. I've checked with others, and I am getting the same type of spark. I've recharged the battery, but it's a cheapass one from Walmart. I've checked the fuses, and they are okay. I've looked around for broken or missing wires, but found none. I've also looked for some fusable links to be fried but didn't see any.

I hate my life.

MrDude_1

coil.... the coil probly went out.


its making a spark so weak that it cant light off the cyl... and it bearly sets off the timing light...


leave everything else alone and try a replacement coil... see if you can bum one off someone to test with....

Token

wow then Summit shipped me two dead coils... Not to be a smartass, but I have two MSD Blaster coils, one a year old and the other a week old, and they both give the same result.

Token

it's not the distributor either because I put the plug wire right on the coil and then to the spark plug, and it was still really dull and red.

MrDude_1

whats the power going TO the coil then?

90RS305

Did you check all the fuseable links? Maybe one of them shorted but didn't completely split apart, and your getting an extremley weak connection? I mean more than likely not, but it's still a possibility! Any body else see this as a possibility? I'm just shooting out a suggestion...

Bruce (90RS305)

Token

I don't have a multimeter, but if I was getting below the required voltage, what would it be cause to? bad battery?

MrDude_1

you would just have to trace everything back until you find where the prob is. i would see if i could beg/barrow a meter from someone and find out.

you can then use the meter to check the fusable links too..

dimented24x7

iTrader: (2)

Hmm... Red spark? Msut be the deposits on the electrode or something. Jsut to make sure, where you holding the base of the plug against a metal surface when testing?

Token

I tried the base on a lot of things- the alternator housing, the intake manifold, the centerbolt on the valve cover, the fender, the hood, the lip on the firewall, and a few other places. I've ruled out the possibilty that I was just getting a bad test.

Token

- the cap and rotor are a week old (Accel)
- the spark plugs (Autolite Resistor) were new as of two weeks, and were cleaned last night (soot removed)
- the plug wires (MSD Heli-Core) haven't ever been used until this project, so they have 2 weeks on them
- the second coil (MSD) and ignition module (Mallory) are brand new, first used last night
- the battery (EverStart from Walmart ) is a month old, but has died and been recharged a few times with a household charger (12V 6A)
- the ground wires were on the intake manifold, but I relocated them to the back of the heads (as they were stock)
- the PROM is new from TBIchips, and also the stock one does no difference
- all of the fuses are in perfect working order (unsure about fusable links, havent checked all of them)

dimented24x7

iTrader: (2)

Ok, then I guess the only thing left to do would be to check to make sure its grounded and that there is the proper voltage at the module and the coil. Its certanly an odd problem. If the fuel injectors are firing then that probably rules out any problems with the pickup or possibly the module.

dimented24x7

iTrader: (2)

The ecm is out of the loop when cranking so you can rule out things on that end. The problem is probably in the wiring somewhere.

Token

I'm going to Sears to get a new battery, just because I hate that Walmart piece of shxt anyway. I'll pick up a multimeter while I'm there. I hate my life.

86Z

iTrader: (4)

okay first off, how old is the distributor? i would pull the module and have it tested at autozone.

snflupigus

is timing off SO much that it cant fire?

dimented24x7

iTrader: (2)

Hmmm... I dont know if that would affect the spark quality, jsut the ability for the egine to start. It would ignite the fuel, but probably backfire out the exaust or the intake rather then jsut do nothing. Thats definatly one thing I hate. Electrical problems are a drag.

Token

wouldn't matter, the ignition module is brand new as I stated.



I just got back with a new DieHard battery and a digital multimeter (with lots of cool stuff, $30). I'm going to probe at this damn car. What should I be ooking for?

Streetiron85

There have been a few times when I had trouble with my HEI, not often tho. It can be hard to troubleshoot when it happens (understatement!!)
I have a vac advance points dist with an MSD tower cap (so I can use the existing plug wires), and an MSD blaster coil with a ballast resistor that I use as a substitute.
Sorry but I can't tell you which wires to splice in, but I think you might be able to look it up in Jesters carb swap article.
Then I'll take out by bad dist and try it out on a different motor, with other known good components.
This has saved me a lot of grief at times.
I always carry my spare dissy with me, cause if the spark starts fading... Life Sucks.
A points system can make an excellent lifeboat.

Token

The car will still not start. I'm completely out of ideas, guys. The new DieHard battery is in, and reading above 12.6v at rest. What do I check for voltage, and when? I am so close to just taking it into a shop and paying them through the nose to fix this


and I'm about to cry

Token

Is it at all possible that I may be 360 degrees off?
Could my spark only be happening on the EXHAUST stroke? Would this happen if I somehow installed the cam gear backwards or something stupid like that? I'm *DEFINITELY* at TDC and I've checked and rechecked this about a dozen times. I am 100% sure I am doing that much right. But is it possible that my ignition is only firing on the exhaust stroke rather than the power stroke?

When I installed the cam, I had the cam dot at 6 o'clock and the crank at 12. Then I rotated the crank once to put them both at 12. I'm using the stock factory gears, and I never double-checked to see if both sides were marked with a dot or just one.

How can I check for this theory?

Streetiron85

post in electronics
read the stickies there too
make sure your dist is grounded
buy an msd

Streetiron85

remove your valve cover and look at the valves for #1 with the timing pointer at 0*. The valves should both be closed if it's on the firing stroke for that cyl.

Trickster

Remove the distributor cap and the #1 sparkplug. Rotate the engine using a 5/8" socket on the center bolt on the harmonic balancer and a ratchet. While turning the engine, hold one finger on the opening for the #1 sparkplug. When you feel air pressure pushing against your finger there, look at the timing mark on the harmonic balancer. Keep turning it until you have your mark at ZERO on the timing index. Now look at the rotor on the distributor and check its relative position to #1 cylinder. If it's facing towards the passenger firewall, you're 180 out.

Token

I know you guys are only trying to help, but I know how to set timing. I've done this exact proceedure over a dozen times Trickster. And yes streetiron85, both valves are closed (springs being up high) when I am at TDC. They are perfect.


I say 360 degrees off, because the ignition only fires on the compression stroke. The crank rotates two full times for it to complete one cycle. Right?

Trickster

Thats right, it takes two turns of the crankshaft to complete the cycle. If it is done right and you have the timing mark set at ZERO and the rotor facing # 1 position, after one turn of the crankshaft back to ZERO, the rotor will be at the # 6 position. After the second turn of the crankshaft back to ZERO, the rotor will be back at the #1 position. It takes two turns of the crankshaft to make one turn of the distributor shaft.

Token

yeah, I knew this. how is the distributor spark controlled? by the cam or by the crank? if it's by the crank, then i can be one revolution off. The piston goes to the top twice in one cycle. if I'm in between the cycles then I can be out of sync.

if it's cam-controlled then it shouldn't matter

Token

my plugs are for vortec heads, and I'm pretty sure the standard gap on them is 045... is that too much?

Streetiron85

Well, when your #1 cyl is @tdc on the firing stroke, then the rotor should be pointing at the cap post that connects to the #1 spark plug wire.

Streetiron85

I'm not sure if .045 is exactly right but that wouldn't be the reason your engine won't start.

Token

indeed it does. I've also intentioanlly set it 180 off to see if that was the problem, but it's not.

Streetiron85

Spark still weak?

Token

:lala: :lala: :lala:

90RS305

Token

the spark hasn't gotten any better

90RS305

Ohh...

Token

Honestly, I think this is what hell is. I don't think it's a firey place with demons poking you in the ***. I think Hell is just a place where you live your life as if you have never died... day in and day out... The only difference is that every possible thing imaginable goes wrong.

I won't get personal on a tech forum, but I am spiraling into depression.

dimented24x7

iTrader: (2)

The firing is set in motion by the pulses received from the pickup coil in the dist. Getting the correct time is complety dependent on the distributer being set properly. Go out and pick up a chiltons manual. They have reprints of the factory electrical system manual. Not as good as teh real thing, but it shows all the necessary stuff youll need. Check to make sure there is teh correct voltage at all the terminals. Also, what type of replacement module are you using? AC-Delco? Autozone?

dimented24x7

iTrader: (2)

Glad im not alone

Token

I have a Chilton's manual, and I've been reading it lately. My ignition module is from Mallory and my coil is from MSD. Should I just go blow another $150 on a distributor or what? How does the magnetic pickup thingydo work?

Streetiron85

Did you install your new module yourself?
Are you sure you did it right (followed the instructions)?
Is your dist grounded? Check it with an ohm meter to be sure.
An ohm meter connected to the dist and the firewall of the car should have the same reading as the two prongs touched together.

Token

new module was a direct OEM replacement, and I coated the bottom with the dielectric grease it came with. The distributor is definitely touching the intake manifold, that's for sure. I will measure its resistance though...

Streetiron85

You have an HEI right?
Coil in cap?

Token

HEI, external coil.

dimented24x7

iTrader: (2)

Sounds like everything is fine. Check all the pins on the two connectors to make sure that they either have near zero resistance between them and ground and check that the proper voltage is at the terminals that should have it. If it makes you feel any better I go through **** like this about once every couple of months. Broken parts like rears and such, electrical fires, fried ign. systems, etc. Just keep at it and youll find out the cause.

Streetiron85

I was reading back on this thread and noticed that you cleaned your plugs.
You didn't use a wire brush did you?

Token

working and driving cars is my only passion. when I can't accomplish something that's based in my one and only hobby, I feel entirely worthless.

Token

I used a toothbrush. Well first I burned off all the excess fuel on them with a lighter, then some soap and water, and an old toothbrush

dimented24x7

iTrader: (2)

The ignition module has its own dedicated grounds. One at the power feed terminal, and another at the 4 pin connector. Make sure those have near zero resistance between the chassis and themselves.

The pickup is just that. There is an eight pointed reluctor or whatever its called that induces a pulse in a coil when it passes eight similar points on the coil assy. itself. That gives the module its reference point as to when to fire.