I am on mechanic #8 in a year and noone seems to be able to help me. Every time it goes to the garage it is out of time with fouled spark plugs that are dripping with gas.They adjust the timing and put new plugs in it.The last garage it was at he Thought it needed a new timing chain tore the front of the motor off and found that it didnt. He put it back together reset the timing put new plugs in it and I paid him $150. The car ran for approximately 10 miles and died. When it was running it had no power on hills and it was making a noise from the exhaust. Now when you try to start it it backfires I had a friend look at it and it is back out of time and needs new sparkplugs again. He said he beleives it is a driveability problem any insight you could give me on this would be greatly appreciated.Thank you very much.
Becka

 

wow!!! I've stumped all of you. I thought for sure someone on here could help me. You guys seem to have had answers for everything.
Becka

 

check the codes


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1985 TransAm BLK/GLD Stock
1985 TransAm BLK/BLK
305HO (soon as it is put in) 5-speed, 3.27 posi, WS6, power everthing.
http://www.geocities.com/bullfrawgs

 

Becka,

First, Welcome aboard!

Second, I'll bet we can get you closer to the solution than your first seven mechanics, and you might learn something about mechanics along the way.

Third, you have a 173 V-6, and if I'm correct, you have the conventional distributor instead of the coil packs and crank sensor, correct? Has anyone bothered to check the dampener ring on the crank pulley/harmonic balancer? These are notorious for slippage, and will indicate incorrect timing when the timing is O.K.

Another thing to remember is that the timing must be set AFTER the EST connector is disconnected to force the ECM into a default spark mode. I hope all your "mechanics" are aware of this. Also, timing, as well as almost all other engine adjustments, must be performed when the engine is at normal full operating temperature.

Another possible cause of unteady timing is a worn distributor. How many miles are on the engine?

The spark plug life could be a result of incorrect timing to some extent, and may be more related to incorrect fuel mixture and/or oil consumption. Again, knowing your mileage would help. The "dripping with gas" description is very indicative of a mixture problem. Has anyone (read, YOU) scanned for error codes? It takes about a whole five minues and can be a valuable diagnostic tool.

Waiting for data...

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Later,
Vader
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"No matter how hard you try you can't stop us now..."
Adobe Acrobat Reader 4.0

[This message has been edited by Vader (edited March 03, 2001).]

 

Incidentally, you have to be patient with posts sometimes. Not all of us are on the same clock, and not all of us check the site constantly. We'll usually get to it eventually.

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Later,
Vader
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"No matter how hard you try you can't stop us now..."
Adobe Acrobat Reader 4.0

 

Any news?

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Later,
Vader
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"No matter how hard you try you can't stop us now..."

 

Thanks for the welcome and also all your info is greatly appreciated.

First it is a v-6 with a convenional distributor but I am not sure on the 173.I don't beleive anyone has checked the dampener ring.

I also am not sure if they disconnected the est connector before they set the timing on it since I wasn't there.

They did say the distributor was O.K. As far as how many miles are on it I'm not quite sure. It had 126,000 on it before someone tried to steal it. They smashed the window out cut the locks out of my doors, smashed the dash and steering column stole the stereo and speakers out of it. Thus I replaced all the gauge. The whole dash and steering column has been replaced including all the instrument clusters.

The friend of mine that looked at it last did run the codes on it and he came up with a code 43. up to this point the other mechanics have been running the codes and said they came up with no errors.

Once again I appreciate your time and info on this because I am becoming very frustrated if you know what I mean.

Becky

 

code 43 reads "ELECTRONIC SPARK CONTROL--- poor electrical connection, open or short in circuit, defective ESC module, defective knock sensor, defective ECM"

I have had a similar problem but my car never died but the timing was staying advanced. I am not sure on your car but you probably have an ignition module inside your distributor. If it is messed up it could cause all these problems. Advanced auto had my module for $15.99. If the mechanics set your timing they probably did unhook the ESC. When you hook it back up the module takes over. I would try a new ignition module and reset the timing.

 

Wow, I was gonna say that I doubt the codes would be relevant, but that is one of the codes that could be!

The code could be just s result of the last one to adjust the timing not clearing the code, which is set by disconnecting the EST wire. The EST wire runs to the ECM for the ECM to take care of the timing. I would clear it and see if it comes back. Disconnecting the battery for a minute will clear it, and as Vader says, this is also a good time to clean the terminals.

If the code comes back, it is likely that it is the ignition module, which is in the distributor.

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Working on:
'84 Z28 LG4 305 with 200,000 original miles!
Added dual elec fans.
145 MPH IROC Speedo
Building 430 HP 350 (ZZ430)
using primarily GMPP parts.
Short block sitting on a stand.

Starting to look like the Kicker poster child!

ASE Certified Master Tech

 

Let me update myself here a little bit. I see that the code 43 is supposed to be ESC not EST. ESC is the system that retards the timing when a "ping" or spark knock occurs. It is possible that the ESC module is bad. It should be mounted on the firewall, but I really don't remmeber ever replacing one. This system uses a knock sensor mounted in the block to "listen" for pinging. You should be able to unplug it when the problem occurs and have the car run, but it will set a code and not run properly.

I would still point my finger at the module in the distributor, or maybe even the pickup coil, or something like that.



------------------
Working on:
'84 Z28 LG4 305 with 200,000 original miles!
Added dual elec fans.
145 MPH IROC Speedo
Building 430 HP 350 (ZZ430)
using primarily GMPP parts.
Short block sitting on a stand.

Starting to look like the Kicker poster child!

ASE Certified Master Tech

 

Hello; I have reset the ecm.And I also have changed the ignition module with no luck.

I recently found out that I have a broken bolt on the exhaust manifold. I do realize this is not good and that it could cause it to have less power.

But could it cause it not to start at all.
Thanks for the info and time.

Becka

 

You have the 189 (or 191, depending on which book you read) V6, not the 173 (2.8). I really like Vader's idea a lot about checking the harmonic balancer ring for slippage. When oil hits that thing, it kills the rubber between the outer & inner ring. In fact, you can check through this one post of mine on the V6 section. I have a link in it to another message; and THAT message has one more link (about the balancer). It's a bit confusing I guess, but just print out all three messages:

https://www.thirdgen.org/messgboard/...ML/001122.html

I'm not sure why your mech's didn't notice this though, especially if they did the timing chain. Replacing the spark module inside the distributor was a good idea, but you should also replace the $12 pick-up coil. And if you do that, you might as well replace the O-ring seal that's on the distributor shaft. It's a "one inch inside diameter" o-ring, any good parts store should have an o-ring assortment behind the counter. I haven't paid more than $1 for the ones I've bought.

A broken bolt on the exhaust manifold wouldn't matter that much. My 2.8 (95% close to the 3.1) has a few broken manifold bolts, as do other 2.8's that I've seen. (I don't understand -why-, I've been able to remove the snapped bolts from the heads with vise-grips and my two hands- no special tools! Anyway...)

I had always been under the impression that no 2.8/3.1 V6 got a knock sensor, but it seems the 90-up 3.1's have one. (Probably has something to do with 3.1's using the speed-density mpfi system...?) If your timing's that far off, you'll definately get a knock... and your timing will get retarded. If the knock sensor itself is bad, maybe it's retarding your timing too much? Have any of those 8 mechanics checked that knock sensor out? If not, I like JP's idea of disconnecting the sensor to see if the car runs.

I think it's odd that they kept replacing your spark plugs instead of cleaning them up, but I guess they had to make some $$.

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-Tom P (Hot rodded 1986 Firebird 2.8l) from http://www.f-body.net/mailbag/3rd/3rd_mailbag.html message boards
---Think your car could be pic of the week? Visit http://www.f-body.net for details!

 

HELLO AGAIN; I JUST WANTED TO SAY THANKS AGAIN TO EVERYONE FOR THE INFO.

TOM I THINK YOU HIT THE NAIL ON THE HEAD AND I REALLY APPRECIATE IT. WELL I FOUND A GARAGE THAT SPECIALIZES IN COMPUTER PROBLEMS. BUT IT WASN'T A COMPUTER PROBLEM. AT LEAST AT THIS POINT WE DONT THINK IT IS. THEY HAD THE DISTRIBUTOR IN 180 DEGREES THE WRONG WAY. THAT REALLY MESSES WITH THE TIMEING (HEHE). ONCE THEY FIXED THAT IT FIRED RIGHT UP. ALTHOUGH WHEN IT BACKFIRED IT SPLIT MY CATALYTIC CONVERTER RIGHT DOWN THE SIDE. THE CAR IS REALLY LOUD RIGHT NOW AND HE SAID HE WANTS TO REPLACE THAT BEFORE TRYING TO RUN THE CODES ON IT AGAIN. I AM REALLY SURPRIZED THAT NONE OF THE MECHANICS THAT WORKED ON IT NEVER NOTICED THE DISTRIBUTOR BEING THAT FAR OFF THEY JUST TOOK IT FOR GRANTED. IT WAS REALLY NICE KNOWING WHAT THEY WERE TALKING ABOUT AND BEING ABLE TO GIVE THEM A COUPLE SUGGESTIONS ON THINGS FOR THEM TO CHECK. THEY WERE VERY SURPRISED AND WANTED TO KNOW HOW I KNEW ALL THIS. I LET THEM KNOW I DID MY HOMEWORK (HEHE).
I WILL KEEP YOU UPDATED ON ANY DIAGNOSIS. AND ONCE AGAIN THANKS TO EVERYONE.
BECKA

 

Glad we could help, Becka! Good to hear they found part of the problem... sounds like you finally found a good mechanic. It took me a while too; the mechanic I go to can usually fix the stuff I can't (or the stuff I break, hehe). Keep us posted on what happens!

Oh, by the way, your mech could also just replace the cat with a "test pipe"- a regular solid pipe- just for the time being. Then he could replace the cat after the tests. "Test Pipe" comes from "just using it to test", since remove the cat convertor is illegal- altho many people do it.


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-Tom P (Hot rodded 1986 Firebird 2.8l) from http://www.f-body.net/mailbag/3rd/3rd_mailbag.html message boards
---Think your car could be pic of the week? Visit http://www.f-body.net for details!

 

thanks for the info on the test pipe. But it is due for inspection and it wont pass without the catylitic converter being replaced so I guess I will go ahead and get it done now and get it over with. Besides I just got my stakeholders bonus check from work so I might as well spend it constructively (hehe). Once again thanks to everyone and I will keep you posted on how things are going.
Becka