i recently saw a motor you can add to your water pump to make it elctric,has any one done all the accesories?
a/c power steering ,water and fan, i want to put them all on a twelve volt dc system and a dual battery.any thoughts?

 

No motors are big enough. The water pump kit is for racing, won't hold up/turn fast enough for street. The load on the alt would more than kill any benefit. Weight of the motors and batteries....on and on.....

 

no im gonna build a bracket and get a continous duty motor with enogh power to move all the accsories. and dual
batteries shouldnt kill the alt otherwise ill get a stronger one.

 

so what are you trying to accomplish here?
large motor and 2 batteries will be alot of weight. if you did in fact pickup 5-10hp, thats not enough to haul around all the extra weight.

and... energy is not free. it takes energy to make energy, therefore, common sense will tell you that your going to be pulling more OUT of the batteries than you can put back into them via the alternator.
it would work for a few passes at the strip, yes, but your still towing around 100# of extra stuff you dont need.

 

5 to 10 more like 20 to 25 horespower, the a/c alone
sucks uop at least 10 to 15, and 25 to 30 pounds of weight
wont affect anything , hell the car goes with 500 pounds of passenger but a 20 lbs batt and 10 lbsmotor are to much?

and im building for milage not speed , i heard it is possible to get 40 mpg so thats my goal.

and the a/c eats about 10 mpg when its on plus its sucks up a ton of power, and why will a small motor use a ton of juice?

people run 10000 watt stereos without any problem so why would a small motor kill a dual batt?

 

think about it... if your taking 20hp worth of parasitic drag off of the engine and placing it on an electric motor......

youll need a friggin' large electric motor. this motor will require a BOATLOAD of current from your batteries.
way more than the alternator can put out im pretty sure. which means nothing will go back into the batteries at all. the alternator will be useless.

another thing to think about... an alternator working normally putting out a small ammount of current might only be a 5hp drag on your engine. that same alternator putting out its max amperage will drag your engine down MUCH MUCH more.


you cant spin a windmill with your hand and expect it to rotate forever. it requires energy from the wind to turn.

 

oh, and 1hp = 746 watts.

care to figure how many watts 20hp is?

 

I know quite a bit about electric motors. One of their main properties goes against what you're trying to do. They use the least amount of current when they are putting out the least amount of torque, consequently spinning the fastest. However, you up the torque you want, you gotta up the current. I highly doubt you're gonna gain 10 MPG just by putting the a/c on an electric motor. THink about it. I know alot of different electric motors, and one big enough for you to run is gonna take 1000+ amps to run what you want it to do. One battery can put out 500-800 amps for a few seconds. Try asking that same battery to do that for a few minutes. Yeah, it's gonna drain in a few seconds and render itself useless. The extra weight, and the few MPG you'll gain aren't worth all the extra work. Want milage, get a civic.

 

well i know a little about batteries and motors,the new lithium ions coming out in a few monthes are 1000 times better than crappy lead acid batts. they charge in five minuts and last 4 to 5 times as long , plus horespower and torque are two diffrent things ,you can have 25 ft lbs af torqe but only a few hp in an electric motor. plus i dont have to run the accesories at max rpm idle speed should do just fine, and gearing is a snap.

 

There are electric water pumps that will tolerate street use (CSI, Mez…).

WRT to the rest of this, check out this thread:
https://www.thirdgen.org/techbb2/sho...hreadid=289882

 

and if a/c are better run by the gas motor than why does it kill gas mileage and power and why arnet all a/cs gas driven?
the fact is if you get ****ty milage you car doesnt last as long, effiecentcy is king, ill be smoking ya at the light with my 4 banger v8 eater in a few monthes then

 

Mars, read the thread 83 crossfire referenced, you will learn a lot. Efficiency is king like you said.....but adding wieght AND transfering energy more than needed is not efficient.

The only way electric motors are worth it is if they are spinning the accesory at a lower rpm than the engine would be, and even then you need to do the math to figure out if it is worth it.

If you want to make better milage, then go with an underdrive pulley and an electric water pump, swap in a manual rack while you're at it. Though you may want to keep a second alternator on hand...

If you want something that is fast, gets 40 mpg, and doesn't even have a/c get a crotch rocket.........

 

Do some more research, they usually also put out alot less current. I'm into battlebots, and the only ones who use lithium are the really little bots(.5-3 pounds) and thats only cuz they draw very little current. Unless some major break through has happened, you're gonna need alot morelithium ion batts to get the current you need. And if you want, goto www.robotcombat.com. They have a motor, the E-Tek that might be able to survive what you want. It's gonna pull at least 500 amps at idle, and it weighs 20 some odd pounds. IDK how effecient that is...

BTW, 4 banger V8 eater? IDT thats happening with using electric motors to run the acessories. Now read what we've been posting and run some numbers.

 

but i dont like motorcycles, hell i already have a mini chopper and it gets 100 mpg, but its dangerous as all hell, and i like my giant steel shell. but math is no biggy and the a/c is killing the engine, its at least getting a motor for that and an electric fan kit, mechanical fans suck.and do you know where to get an underdrive kit for an iron duke?

 

REALLY, the only time it’s really worth it is if you have packaging issues that it solves or if there is some advantage to offsetting when the power is taken from the engine. The fact is whether they’re electric or belt driven, the power comes from the engine, and converting that power to electricity, storing it and converting it back will never be as efficient as using it as it’s original mechanical energy.

 

There's not alot of sense in arguing with this guy, he's obviously going to build a perpetual motion machine and prove several whole generations of automotive engineers from all over the world wrong. As well as scientists, engineers in other disciplines, and so on.

Like all perpetual-motion machine schemes, this one won't go anywhere.

Let the guy waste his money and effort on it, he'll figure out what the problems are soon enough. Or maybe not....

I especially enjoyed the comment about the batteries that charge in 4 or 5 minutes. This guy obviously didn't pay attention in all those physics classes he has obviously taken, where had he been paying attention, he would have learned that a battery is like a "tank" of electrical energy, in effect; and that just like a tank, if you drain it down somehow, you have to fill it back up somehow; or it becomes empty. In the case of batteries, they have a spec known as "amp-hours"; which is literally a count of the number of electrons available in them. It's the product of current flow times time. To recharge them, you have to put back in a number of amp-hours equal to however many you took out, plus a little more to make up for inefficiencies and losses in the process.

Most of the perpetual-motion machines I've seen over the years involve just such things as this; energy conversion from one form to another (chemical to electric, electric to mechanical, etc.). People seem to think that the energy output after a conversion just appears from nowhere; for instance, that it takes no power to run an alternator other than friction.

He'll find out the truth soon enough.

 

AC definitely does not use up 10mpg. No way in hell. His math probably makes perfect sense when all of the figures are incorrect.

 

Get this, I picked up 1 mpg when I quit rolling my windows down all the time and started used the a/c. Whatever small parasitic losses the a/c created were more then cancelled out by the decrease of the drag coefficient. 20 MPG on an out-of-tune L98, and I was pretty happy.

What others said. Get a manual steering rack, ditch the air pump (if you have it) and whatever. Reduce other parasitic losses from chassis work (repack your wheel bearings recently?) and drivetrain losses, and reduce your Cd if you can.

 

well if electric wasnt more effecient then why are the new suv hybrids using electric motors to power the accseories and the gasmotor powers the wheels and the alternater, and they get 25%better mileage and more power, the fact is the motor has to run an alternater no matter so it has the same amount of drag rgardless of how much juice you need out of . if 25% more milage and power isnt enough to convince you , what will? and how is 50 pounds of weight going to afect a car that
holds 100 pounds of fuel and 600 pounds of passengers?plus i only have half the engine weight!

 

 

no ,an alternater takes quit a abit of power to turn, however
it will still produce more power than you will use , and besides if electric motors dont work then why do they have kits to make
powersteering and water pumps electric, you gain horespower right? not loss it, so electric must be more effecient! and the same tech could be applied to all the accsesories with one big motor with proper gearing and pulley reducers and an extra batt in the trunk it should work great,add a few power upgrades to the engine and you get quit a bit of milage and horespower.


and yes they did just have a break throu in lithium ion batts, the stuff in side has much smaller molucles than any other batt, in a cell phone they would charge in 10 minuts fully and last 8-9 times as long and they can put out more power,all the new hybrids coming out in 2007 and 2008 will use them.

 

No

Because when you have an electric water pump, you can turn it off when you don't need it (like while drag racing), and turn it on when you do (like while waiting between rounds).

 

internal combustion engines are getting more efficient & powerful through their design & the use of electronic control systems. why do you think so may people on this web site are swapping in LT1s & LS1s, because they just like to swap out motors? the more you look, the fewer LT1 swaps see people doing, now most people want the LS1, a much better performing motor than the old L98 & the LT1 ever were stock. can you make a L98 run with a stock LS1, yes, but put the same money & work into a LS1 & it will run even better.

just better tuning of the bin file allows the ECM to better control efficiency which adds to higher fuel mileage. with no changes to my motor what so ever, i have gone from just under 20 miles per gallon to just over 23, my car also runs better now than it did before, all from just minor changes in the programing of the bin.
on the surface what you want may seem to make sense, but it just doesn't play out in real life. what you want just isn't going to happen, sorry, but thats the truth.

the 2.0 liter engines of today will out perform, get better fuel mileage, better emissions, are quieter running, & will have fewer oil leaks than what those old 2.5 iron dukes could even hope for.
if you really want better performance & fuel economy, get a new motor & computer system in & start tuning.

 

The hybrids use an eight HP motor (one of them does, can't remember the make or brand), but how big is that motor? How many volts does it need? How many amps? It seems like a huge waste of fabrication time and effort to do it, when other proven means exist for wich to increase fuel economy without having to re-invent the wheel. Although having a third-gen that gets 40 MPG would be really neat and different, is that what you really bought it for? I can think of cheaper R&D platforms for which to tinker with, really. Why not just go hybrid and rig up an electric motor into your drive shaft or something? I'm sure if you did it right, you could even wire it so it would act as a generator when you were decelerating, charging up a bank of batteries for when you wanted to get moving again.

But, unless you have access to a ton of fabrication materials for free, I doubt that you will break even over the long haul, with the supposed fuel savings. It would cost you a lot of money and time and material to save money, and that just doesn't make a lot of sense to me, all for the sake of being 'different'. It would be rather interesting to see it in action, if it really worked as you claim it would, but I'm heavily leaning on it not working, or being abandoned half-way into it, or only working half the time due to questionable craftsmanship. Prove me wrong, please.

For some reason, I doubt my small bit of intelligence can sway you, but go ahead and do what you like. Just make sure to post up your results, come sucess... or failure.

 

PERPETUAL MOTION

The mark of the idiot!

I rest my case.

An alternator doesn't "produce" power. It changes it from mechanical (force & motion) to electric (volts & amps). It loses some along the way, usually into the form of heat (although it's conceivable that you could lose some as light, if you made stuff get so hot it glows). I.e., put in 1 HP of mechanical, get out .85 HP or whatever of electric. Then when you go to change it back, say with a "motor", you put in 1 HP of electricity, and you get out .85 HP of mechanical energy, plus some heat from the losses. It's a net loss and inefficiency any way you slice it.

The only way that a hybrid vehicle uses less energy, is by employing a smaller motor (the electric one) when the power demands are small; and the larger motor (the gasoline one) when power demands are greater, and to recharge the battery when the small one depletes it. It is only more efficient to the extent that the greater efficiency of the smaller motor more than makes up for the losses in the batteries, charging, and other energy-conversion steps.

But, it's obvious that you don't understand the laws that govern the universe; specifically, the law of conservation of mass/energy. Although, since we're only dealing with mechanics and simple DC electricity, not anything relativistic or subatomic or otherwise outside of the realm of comprehension of somebody with an elementary-school education, we can think of the energy as its own separate law. And that law states, that energy is neither created nor destroyed; only changed from one form to another. Attempt to break the law at your own peril.

"There's no such thing as a free lunch".

 

Enough is enough.

If you are convinced it's such a great idea, build it and prove everybody wrong. Be sure to include documented before and after 1/4 mile times and/or dyno sheets.