well i've managed to yet again carve through making a hole in another casting head.

Not in 1, but in 2 places, both in the pushrod pinch wall. I'm starting to think that these 083 heads are a bit thinner in this area then the 416 heads i worked over before. I remember working this area a lot straighter on the 416's and never had this problem (i broke through in the intake bowl on them), and im doing a milder job on these 083 heads.

Is this repairable, and will it be dependable enough for a daily driver?

 

Others will flame me for this,bit I'm running a set on my farm truck right now that have been fixed this way for 7 years.(I try a lot of stuff out on this truck,if it works great,I transfer it to a project.If not,who cares,it's just a farm truck!)

I use epoxy,quicksteel is my choice.Fill the hole,let it cure fully,then lightly sand it to conture.Like I said,I know I'll get hammered for this,but I swear it works.I mean really,if your talking about the area between the port and the pushrod slots,how much pressure is there?Enginge vacume and crankcase vacume,not a big deal.

 

I did that too on a head. Used epoxy to fix it. You could try brazing the hole up too. Just be sure the pushrod will not rub on the repair on the back side.

"Tech steel" should work too. (metal reinforced epoxy)

 

Epoxy is actually one of the best fixes. Expoxies are great materials with very good mechanical properties.

 

I'll be damned,we agree on something

 

thanks you all

what should i use to clean the surface before applying the epoxy? break cleaner work good here?

the casting is very thin here, i wish i had known that before hand, it seemed to have some meat left even when i broke through. I broke away some of the casting around the holes with a scribe to make sure there was no loose metal. The first hole i made using a rat-tail file, by hand, to even up the surface. the second hole was made while i was deburing the floor and the grinder bounced from the irregular surface smashing a hole in the wall.

heads up anyone porting 083 casting, dont get too happy at the pushrod pinch. If you search through the archives you'll find im not the only one whos had this problem with this casting, and i was doing a mild porting job on these.

 

Brake cleaner will work fine. How smooth is the area where the hole is? Did you polish that area? The surface needs to be fairly rough to get good adhesion. But since you punched through with a rotary file, you should be good to go.

 

The smaller hole's casting is finished with 40grit sanding rolls. the larger hole is finished with a doublecut carbide cutter. The pics i attached are pretty high res, do they look rough enough?

 

That should work fine. You might want to cover more area then just the hole and then sand it down to the desired contour. This will provide a better adhesion and make it more stable. But don't get to crazy you need some epoxy there for strength.

 

I used tech steel to fill in my rocker stud voids. Seems like it worked well, kinda hard to knead the stuff though.

doom, do you have one of those outside calipers? I bought one to measure the wall thickness there to make sure I didn't punch through. (however, as I thought, it's kinda useless, you have to loosen the tangs to slide it back out of the port, so you lose your measurement...) Anyone have a good method of checking thickness there? count turns while backing off caliper, then retighten, and measure the gap?

 

nope, no mic's or calipers, sonix. just used my fingers

what i can tell you, from my experience, is when it feals "thinner", stop. Mine didnt feal too thin there, but obviously i was wrong.

I'll have to check out this Tech Steel epoxy. Is it a A+B epoxy? Maybe i'll go ahead and fill in the rocker stud voids while i'm getting my hands dirty.

I'm going to thicken that intire area with epoxy, it has to be pretty thin all over if im busting through while hand filing with a rat-tail file.

 

it's like a cocktail weenie, or a hotdog, with no round edges.
black center 1/2" diameter, grey outer layer, 1/4" thk or so. Like playdoh. You just cut off a slice, and knead it until the color is uniform. Dries powerdery kinda. That's what I used at least, I think it's tech steel.
I got a caliper for $2.99 at princess auto, if I knew how to use it for this, it'd be damn useful. Check the floor/roof thickness, pushrod area, etc.

 

Tech Steel http://www.nlsproducts.ca/

Brazing rods for brazing cast iron. http://www.aluminumrepair.com/hts528.asp

 

well damn.. I think this head is going to look like swiss cheese by the time that i am done with it. I guess these dont have the meat in them that the 416 casting head i worked before did.

the heads are the only thing stopping me from putting my engine together (cars been down since last august!)and ive yet again broke through a critical area on another casting.

On a good note my electric die grinder still works, after 6 months of use, and me slamming it very hard on to the counter a few times.. best 30$ i ever spent.

 

alright ive been doing some research on repairing this. I dont want to start over again, and hell, maybe i'll learn something new in the process.

before i was recomended brazing with bronze rods for this type of repair. I found some companies and people recomending silver brazing rods for this type of repair too because its very strong, bonds well with cast iron, and flows at a much lower temp then bronze rods.

Is anyone fromilular with silver brazing/solder?

Do i want a high silver content, like 56%? Thats what www.muggyweld.com recomends for silver brazing on cast iron manifolds.

The cheapest i could find online was 75$ for a 1lb, but i found a merchant on ebay selling less quantity for much less.. is this http://cgi.ebay.com/1-2-Oz-56-Carbid...QQcmdZViewItem what i want?

Sorry for all the questions i just want to make sure im getting the right things.

 

would you be doing this yourself? I think brazing/welding on cast iron is pretty tricky, getting it pre-heated, flowing right, etc. You didn't break through in the combustion chamber, so it's not a high pressure area, I don't think you need that.
I'd try the epoxy or tech steel, or if you're hell bent on getting it brazed, get a fabrication shop, or machine shop to do it for you, they're probably good at it, and it'd save you the hassle of buying a handful of those big $ rods. (then chances are you'd blow a few in the learning process.,...)

 

you could possibly run into an issue with heat expansion, or thermal stress.

it isn't always about how much pressure you put on them.
I mean look at vacuum lines they only have a little vacuum going through them yet I have had to pull more then one off a car due to being looked at the wrong way.


not saying it can't work and if it did work for you I'm glad. just my ***** are kinda puny to try itmyself

 

I have to admit im not to keen on epoxies, they've never impressed me. Now, realize i've never used epoxy on metal's, only plastics and in those applications i've never seen it live up to the "hype" from the manufacture.

From the research i've done it looks like silver brazing is a lot easier then using bronze, or any other alloy for that matter.

That hts528 that you posted, FBIRD, says you need to heat the metal is 1400F to get it to flow. That seems like a really high temp for such a thin spot.

 

Iron melts at a much higher temp tham 1400F Use a oxy acetylene torch.
Do not stick the rod in the flame. heat the metal up hot and let the rod material melt in to the metal.

The epoxy will work. It works fine on metal. That area is easy to fix with epoxy.
Use a quality epoxy and wash your hands before handling it. you can even smooth it with water. Just needs a roughened grease free surface to stick to.
Do all hot tanking first. Many plastics have "mold release agent" stuck in the pores of the material. Unless cleaned properly before grinding or sanding you're jusy rubbing it in. Epoxy won't stick to mold release agent. Thats why many have trouble with epoxys on plastics.

I've even used stuff like "Fireseal 2000" ( POR-15) have repaired an exhaust port that went right into the water jacket. Gets harder with heat.

 

I use epoxy on a regular basis on plastics, UHMW, ABS, teflon, nylon 6/6. Works like crap, you're bang on right, mold release agent, and some plastics are very slippery. Metal works great though.

 

I myself wouldn't trust them, just when you think you have them bolted on, you could find another hole the hard way.

I am in no way saying that it will happen, or that fixing them is bad, just that after finding that many holes and problem areas in that particular set of heads, what will happen to them once they are on the car and get up to running temp?

I was at our local U-Pullit a couple of weeks ago and spotted an L69 that was complete from carb to oil pan sitting in an 86 SS Monte. Could've had those heads for maybe as low as $75.00 for the set. They most likely were 416's too. Probably couldv'e had the whole engine for $175-250.

Its just something to think about.

 

I sure do! I measured mine thru the whole porting process to get the pinch point as open as possible without getting the metal too thin.
The secret is to use a large ball bearing (mine was .625) where the pushrod goes, with dial calipers. Subtract the .625 and I knew exactly the thickness of the "thin" part.

 

damn! that's good supervisor, or a short piece of rod or something eh?

 

As long as it's round on the end. I wasn't very clear about the procedure for those people that think I was doing math constantly.
1. Squeeze the calipers down on the ball & the wall.
2. Lock the calipers.
3. Remove the calipers and then the ball.
4. Hold the locked calipers at eye level and put the ball on the caliper jaw.
5. Now you are looking at the actual wall thickness as the gap between the ball and the other jaw.

 

Well i finally took the head in to the machine shop to have them inspect the damage. The verdict was, "its going to cost atleast 150$ to fix that". most of that was labor prepairing the weld.

I talked to the guy for a good while and he said he didnt see any reason why an epoxy wouldnt work. He recomended "Devcon" for the hole. He also complimented my porting work, and called it "hot rodded" (he was an older guy, probably in his 60's), which i got a good smile out of. its always cool to talk to guys who've been doing it since before you were born, ecspecially when your 27.

I cannot seem to find this "Tech Steel" anywhere.. Any ideas where? It sounds like the stuff to use here.

 

I've bought tech steel at princess auto (kinda like harbor freight) and at a Bumper to bumper auto parts store.

 

neither of those stores around here. anyone know where i can find it around ohio?

I checked on their website for distributors and the only place near me is "true value" but they say they dont have it. You never know though, maybe the highschool kid didnt feal like doing his job today.

How's that build of yours coming along Sonix? You got a thread for your build?

 

hmm, not sure. Just try calling auto parts stores and asking what kinds of two part epoxies they have. Tell them you don't want a liquid style, but do they have a two part solid type, like two pieces of gum almost. They might laugh at you, but sooner or later you'll get a real place that knows what you're talking about, and they'll have some.
*maybe try an ohio regional board?*

I don't have any single thread dedicated to my build, I didn't want a massive thread on it, so I keep asking single questions.
I put in the cam last night (lunati 60103), and the cam sprocket hits the block, so tonight I clearance! short block is complete aside from that. So after the cam is right, then i'll put on the timing cover, lifters, oil pan... wait for the heads from the machine shop (should be any day now), then valve covers, then in car! i'm still saying it'll be running my may1, but i'm not too confident...

 

I'll give you my quick easy 2-step method for dealing with cheap, plentiful, easily replaced stock castings after they get destroyed. I'm sure it will work just as well for you.

Step 1: Throw wasted part in trash
Step 2: Buy a non-wasted one at the junkyard or eBay or maybe even the classifieds on this site

Not alot of sense spending $150 to "repair" a $50 part; or risking $100 worth of soft parts (gaskets, fluids, etc.) that you'll have to buy anyway, if your "repair" doesn't hold.

I WOULD NOT epoxy up a head I intended to drive on the street; and most especially not if I intended on ever driving more than a couple of blocks from my house. Might work fine for racing off of a trailer, where it never really heat-cycles as much as on the street, and you can load it up and haul it home when it fails; won't be very reliable under street use conditions.

 

thats great i think i got a headstart on you and now your miles ahead of me on your build. I've bought everything i need for my build, but my heads are holding me back. the block has been honed and nearly completely cleaned. Still needing to fine clean the oil passages though.


I found that "Quick steel" stuff, it looks like the same exact thing as "tech steel". Maybe i'll give it a try.

 

just got off the phone with my machinist, he cc'd a chamber of mine, since I couldn't seem to get a very accurate reading at home. He swore up and down that I'd never be able to get an extra cc out of those heads, "4-6cc's is a hell of a lot of metal to remove ya know".... looks like I got a cool 6ccs, just unshouding intake and exhaust, and polishing the chambers. (64cc's measured). I've also measured deck height at .015" (block was decked .010", and pistons are .020" deeper down... not sure how this worked out). Puts me at a cool 10.0:1 CR.

 

Doom86, I just joined the site today.Was surfing about porting my 461's and read this post.I am in Columbus,and Edisons has a set of heads(305) on a 80's truck and I do believe they sell them for $25 a piece if you pull them.To much grease to read head # but I was wondering what heads they may be,but it's hard to beat the price.

 

if it was pre-87 and carbed more then likely 601, or 416 heads. they may be swirl ports though too, i'd check the numbers again before pulling them either way. last time i went "digging for heads" i took a peice of paper and a crayon so i could get the numbers that were hard to read buy putting the paper over the numbers and using the crayon to "rub" the numbers on to the paper.

I doubt there are many other cities in the world that have a stretch of junkyards like we do here in columbus. There are atleast 10-12 junkyards on McKinely rd right next to each other.

 

most likely 601s then. 601's, 416's, 081's, worth using.
others (not sure what casting # the OLD 305 heads had, the ones with 1.72" intakes) are crap.